I think he just detailed the way they are being abused. In the thick of it those buffs are a nice system, would be sad to see them go completely. You know, if flags gave debuffs that'd work to counter balance such actions...

Edited by Precrush, 03 April 2016 - 06:13 PM.

that is literally abusing it....

 

 

You can't tell people that they are abusing it because they can use different armors that they want and you can't do something about it. 

Impatiently waiting for the movespeed and defense (and health ?) debuff to flag holders (well, a test, that is). Maybe something along the lines of 10% current movespeed and ~10% of current DEF / MDEF, as it wouldn't exactly cripple the ones holding onto one or two flags, but five of them would decrease one's such stats by 40%. 60% of 500 movespeed is 300, which is way more reasonable than this "you won't catch meeeee" bunch of stats that feels like something in the game wants Sorcerers crying in a corner. 10% of current defense shouldn't have too much of an impact for the first two flags either, except at very high level where it'd also mean ~20% of element resistance... which, with elements working as they do for now, would be excruciatingly painful. Having one's damage mitigation reduced from 95% to ~75% must feel bad (damage received x5, ugh).

 

Still, it sounds like a very good idea. More so for low and mid-level Battlesquare, where one or two hyper-stacked players usually hog onto 10 or more flags for 20 minutes. Having them think more carefully about how many flags they should be carrying, rather than going straight for the "pick up and stall for points" attitude, might bring some sort of challenge even to them while allowing lower-geared players to have an influence on the match. Right now, two stacked players on the same side are just impossible to take down for any player who doesn't have a character especially designed for this level range. Having their DEF and movespeed reduced by 50% through a flag debuff might help (way more damage received, and one less way to avoid said damage).

 

 

I'm thinking that something like 5% total stats decrease per flag, plus a 5% increase on this number per flag, with a cap at 7 or 10, would make more sense. It'd give something like :

 

Which sounds cool enough (don't forget the cap, you might not want to go all the way to 75% stats decrease).

 

 

Maybe this idea will be useful to someone important around here ?

Sounds good^^ The numbers could always be adjusted. Additionally, if the numbers were too high for one lvl range but not another, they could be different for those. That'd probably make it harder to code though.

You can't tell people that they are abusing it because they can use different armors that they want and you can't do something about it. 

 

That's still abusing it, You are intentionally gimping yourself just to die enough for the sole reason of collecting buffs that are meant to balance out players that die a lot vs those that die little amount of times.

That's still abusing it, You are intentionally gimping yourself just to die enough for the sole reason of collecting buffs that are meant to balance out players that die a lot vs those that die little amount of times.

 

 

You didn't get the point lol. So you're telling that players cant use different set of armors? Check my example. LMAO

Why would you want to use weak set in the first place if you know you're gonna die easier with it?

If you use more offensive gear to help your team out with kills and stuff, and then after dying a few times, switch to more tanky gear to take full advantage of the buffs you got, I don't think that'd be abuse. You are using the assets giving to you and adapting to the situation as it unfolds. Maybe you don't end up dying, and the dps gear ends up being better for the whole match. Basically, if one set is better than the other at the start, but then worse after a while, can you blame anyone for using that to their advantage? Obviously, if you deliberately die a bunch of times that's a different thing.

I would like to suggest since the rules in bsq are kinda broken..

 

I know that you are not allowed to abuse the buffs in BSQ but how can you tell if people are abusing it or not? 

 

Like for example I have 2 sets of armors that I want to use in BSQ. I will use the first armor that I know I will die easily when I engage in battle and when I farmed some or all the buffs I'll go on the other set armor to make myself almost unkillable.

 

I suggest to remove the buffs in BSQ since I saw a lot of players abusing it. 

 

Your example literally states you use the weaker armour set to FARM the buffs. I am more than aware of people using multiple armour sets in BSQ and most the time it's not to farm death buffs to abuse them. If you're using multiple armour sets for that reason then YES  WE CAN TELL YOU CAN"T USE MULTIPLE SETS.

I believe the case of a single player and how they look like abusing something or not isn't quite as important as to think about a way to make Bsq a little bit fairer to those who spent neither 2.000 hours nor 500 USD, yet still want to play PvP.

As in "how the hell does one balance this crap", instead of "some people abuse a mechanism that was supposed to benefit the weaker ones". Some do indeed, but writing it down for the fourth time doesn't bring much to this discussion.

 

 

I'd like ideas and thoughts about this concept of flags weakening their holders, as a way to have members of a team cooperate instead of just waiting for some hyper-stacked folks to win. In this regard, I'd like to also mention the easy solution to a number of problems related to elements : a 30~50% multiplicative element damage mitigation for everyone throughout the match. Maybe enough to avoid playing the "run or be instagibbed by any high-damage class, superarmor or not" game, and it won't have any effect on high-tier players since 30% from the ~5% left of element damage, after other resistances, are ridiculous. The less resistance you have, the more useful it is, which is just about how it should work I assume.

 

Let's think about solutions to have PvP be a little funnier for the ones who aren't willing to dedicate their lives to it, as a game is meant to be played, not worked on.

 

 

NB : this element damage mitigation would only be a temporary solution, which would be replaced by an overhaul of the element system when the time comes. Having a system looking like "1 damage is mitigated by 1 defense point", with re-tuned numbers on each elemental card, could be a very interesting idea.

Edited by OokamiNeko, 04 April 2016 - 01:53 PM.

No buffs in bsq is fine with me.  Debuffs is a dumb idea.  If anything, if there is a debuff, the debuff per flag should be an hp/def reduction since the buffs in bsq give hp/def increases.

 

also don't know why this topic is in the newbie zone since the discussion seems to be about bsq changes

Edited by flubsy, 04 April 2016 - 06:42 PM.

NB : this element damage mitigation would only be a temporary solution, which would be replaced by an overhaul of the element system when the time comes. Having a system looking like "1 damage is mitigated by 1 defense point", with re-tuned numbers on each elemental card, could be a very interesting idea.

 

Good luck with any temporary solution actually being looked at. I tried making one for a specific and suddenly appearing issue and instead of a discussion it was an entire guild keeping the post off topic and forced it to be closed by a VM.

 

I'd keep any suggestion on how to overhaul the elements system to it's own topic.

a game is meant to be played, not worked on.

HERESY!

 

But ye, the buffs are there to help people with weaker gear, which is important. Bsq currently, because there isn't much tactical element, is not very friendly to those people anyway, nor is emporia.

No buffs in bsq is fine with me.  Debuffs is a dumb idea.  If anything, if there is a debuff, the debuff per flag should be an hp/def reduction since the buffs in bsq give hp/def increases.

 

also don't know why this topic is in the newbie zone since the discussion seems to be about bsq changes

 

Being able to kill an opponent quickly, even within a combo, doesn't quite help when you can't land a hit on them, which is why a movespeed debuff sounds like a good idea. Removing buffs given upon death might be interesting, as it would avoid letting people triple their HP just like that, but it would make it even more unfair to those I mentioned earlier, the ones who deem stupid the idea to be bound to working on a character for hundreds of hour, just to be able to play against other players. As such, bluntly removing anything along those lines is a terrible idea if nothing is done to balance such decision.

 

 

Also this topic is in the newbie zone because some users happened to find it a useful base to their thoughts and ideas. I'll ask a forum staff member about how opening a new topic about it is necessary or not.

The topic is actually in the Newbie Zone because this area of the forums also serves as a helpful Q&A for learning about the game and server.

Your example literally states you use the weaker armour set to FARM the buffs. I am more than aware of people using multiple armour sets in BSQ and most the time it's not to farm death buffs to abuse them. If you're using multiple armour sets for that reason then YES WE CAN TELL YOU CAN"T USE MULTIPLE SETS.

<removed> For example I have mspeed set which gives me a lower armor like for example getting mspeed set (arams, earring for fortitude legendary set with ms options name it) then after getting killed for a couple of times I switch to lunars or stella and other armors, with enough buffs from being killed I switch to another armor which is not impossible to happen cause there are some players that has mspeed build and tank build set. What I am pointing here is you cant actually tell players who's abusing buffs in bsq.

That's why I'm just suggesting to remove that buffs in bsq to make it fair for all players. Play with the gears and stats we have in game. Well it's just a suggestion..

Peace out!
Edit by chimi: please do not attack other players based on differing opinions. This is your warning.

Edited by VModChimichanga, 06 April 2016 - 02:34 AM.

<removed> Well even tho i think farming buffs isnt banable, but nvm its also an abuse of the BSQ system itself since the buffs was thought for a better balance between low and geared player.

In 3 or 4 years of BSQ and Drago I did that maybe 4 times, way too lazy for this kid stuff since I dont see any sense in being immortal and tank skills for hours. I would never change from an atk/ms to a tanky build but well some people enjoy the one, some the other set combination.

A smart fix of the BSQ system is still needed. I still prefer fixed stats for everyone over a flag-debuff-system since it would bring way more skill to this mode and a fair chance for everyone, but well..
Edit by chimi: removed quote that was removed

Edited by VModChimichanga, 06 April 2016 - 02:36 AM.

No need to be so harsh Elijazz. I think it was just a misunderstanding, you might have used the wrong word there when you said "farm". That just indicates that you go in there with the mindset of getting those buffs asap. "Farming" buffs shouldn't be tolerated at all in my opinion, while changing gear mid way because the other got better doesn't sound abusive to me.

 

Bsq is always going to be less about skill than regular PvP, especially when there's more then a few people there like there should be. I believe in a more chaotic mode you can more easily make up for your gear by avoiding certain fights and so on. So that's why I think having a 1v1 fixed stats PvP mode is better. And I also think you can't have both because if you can basically experience all the possible PvP with out putting a penny in the game or farming for even an hour, there'd be too little reason to gear up.

In order to build mspd, you have to sacrifice a lot of other stats.  You can catch mspd people with a mspd set.  Doesn't seem like it's a problem as evidenced people have multiple sets for bsq.  It is also much harder for someone with mspd to kill someone with pure HP in bsq as well.

 

By adding a mspd debuff, you're promoting an HP only gameplay which is already predominant in all levels of bsq.  If you don't want buffs to be abused, just get rid of it in bsq.  It's already annoying having to attack a tank that has all the flags for several minutes and with all the chaos going around, it's almost impossible to kill a healing tank.  Anyone remember when we had 1000 hlt invokers and paladins that just held flags and never died?  I'd rather not have a bsq filled with one style of build.  

 

As stated before, bsq is predominantly hp/atkspd builds anyways.  Just cuz these hp builds can't catch a mspd build doesn't mean the game should be changed to cater to those players.  There are roles for every class and build.

 

Battlesquare and PvP are not fair anyways.  There's a reason why people build for pvp/bsq and by trying to balance it by making all stats the same somewhat ignores a certain populous of the game.

Once again, it's all about finding the right numbers. Hp and defense would also get debuffs, so people going for stacking that wouldn't be a problem. The goal of this is making people vulnerable and die easier, ms debuff needs to be there for that to be achieved. Your argument doesn't really make much sense, if both ms and hp/def get fitting debuffs, it won't make either gear any better than the other, at least not anymore better than they are now. If there is no ms debuff, people will instantly switch on that gear and run around even more.

 

There's a lot of pessimism in the game, which is expected with the history we have. But just because systems are flawed, unfair and bad, that doesn't mean they can't be improved or fixed. The universe doesn't have a law that states BSQ has to be a playground for a handful of  people who've paid hundreds, maybe thousands for the game. If everybody can have fun in there, that means more people doing bsq, more people getting into the pvp side of the game, and more people investing time and money into it. That's making the game better for everyone.

You should consider this also from weaker players point of view. After gangbanging or locking the stacked player(s), you finally get the flags. Then what? Wait strong ones to respawn and kill you even faster? Those debuffs would affect everyone, making stacked players easier to kill and weakening already weaker players, even with the buffs they already have. I' m not sure if these debuffs are the right solution for this, so I would throw my two cents to support flub's idea, if any.

Again, I think that's just pessimism.

 

Agito, you do have a point, I hadn't considered that. But the debuffs (based on %) themselves hurt stacked players more then newer ones, just like the death buffs help those with better stats more. And with the new tactical element of having to defend the flag holders, those with the +5 advanced gear can also feel useful instead of getting slaughtered left and right. Adding more flavor, tactics, balance and making the mode fun for everyone would be the dream goal of these debuffs. A player who couldn't hold 5-10 flags shouldn't take that many, he should take 1-2 and focus on defending. Besides people like that die in seconds now anyway! So no, the flag debuffs themselves wouldn't hurt people with worse gear more, it would only give them more room to work with (we should come up with a name for people with "f2p" gear lol).

 

But ye they do not work too well with the death buffs. Maybe a system where after one kill, you lose 1 stage of those buffs? These flag debuffs wouldn't work optimally on empty bsq fields either, so doing it in combination with other changes would be the best thing. I'm talking better rewards, possibly less bsq's, and then changes to fix the problems these debuffs would bring, like the one with the death buffs. But I do believe it would work alright on its own too.

 

I don't want to take advantages away from users with good gear too much. But the fact is this game is still really p2w. If you consider the gear at the highest levels it's worth thousands of dollars or years of your time. Additionally we have had numerous problems with duplicated items in the past, the effect of which is impossible to determine, we can only say it's huge and one could argue has single-handedly raised the gear standards so high. In this climate we do need changes to pvp that cater to more casual players, it's essential if we want the game to grow in the future. But that doesn't mean everyone should fight on an equal ground or as you say, +5 people should be able to stand up to +20 people. We need changes that, like I said, make these people feel useful, make them have fun. Then they might stick with the game for longer then lvling to 60 and possibly help us fund this adventure of ours.

 

My gear is probably worth about 200 dollars at this point, and while the fact that I can't really stand up to people with this gear doesn't bother me too much, you must understand how that hurts the game overall. Why play a free to play MMO that works like this when you can download a moba or buy a game knowing that you wont be put miles behind everyone else just because you are able to put maybe 20$ into it. That's why I propose this stuff, it's needed and ultimately works towards everyone's intrests.

Like I said, just consider what you need to reach the highest level of gear that you basically need for emporia and often bsq too. It's way too much effort or money to call it pay to speed up. There's a point when a system where you pay to speed things up becomes p2w, and that's the point where the time needed without it becomes unreasonable. We are way over that point. We can argue on the terminology there, the point is that when things are too hard (or impossible) to accomplish without paying, that ends up hurting the game.

 

P2w comes from sockets, both element and normal. While these items are obtained by systems in the game, they have a gold value attached to them, that gold value is attached to IM value which is attached to which ever currency you use. I do not deny the necessity of enchanting, soul crafting and all kinds of systems that require either dedication or money. But if you compare our systems with those of other MMO's, ours are too top heavy, meaning the higher you go the more benefits you get. Changing that at this point is not realistic, systems that allow more casual players compete at least somewhat are the more fair option for those who now have all this gear. Basically it's like nerfs. Often times it's better to buff the other side then nerf the other, because then you are giving and not taking, which often does the same thing but comes out more positive.

 

Elements are a tricky issue. Most of the cards are illegitimate, yet you can't really blame the people who bought them, or know who got them from farming. Thus I don't believe their effectiveness will be completely leveled, which means people will still gain an advantage with 6*s that will remain way out of reach for most players. Things were a lot better when one needed only a few +20 items to survive for long enough, but even if that were to be the case why not expand the tactical aspect of BSQ, and make it more rewarding. In a case were people are more equal these flag debuffs would work even better.

 

I don't exactly understand what you are asking. What haven't I brought up? I'll just talk about that anyway. When gravity and barunson before that were in charge of development, there was no real and direct way to effect what happened. If you suggested something, all the GM's could do was send that over to Korea, were someone may or may not have read it. It's a different culture there, they had their own path which they followed, giving little note to whatever news they got from outsiders. Changes often felt random, sometimes going in the exact opposite direction from the general view of the players. All in all, it wasn't too encouraging to suggest anything. That's not to say things like p2w weren't talked about. P2w was very real on EU even when a few +20ies was enough, since getting to that was significantly harder then what it is here. Also the staff was no were near as responsive. This server is the best one so far, and that's because we can bring these things up and trust that there's some actual use in doing so.

 

Also I was a massive noob for at least 3 of those years so there's that too.

 

EDIT: Why'd you remove that! Well, Ill just leave this here, don't feel like letting 20 mins of my life going completely to the bin.

Edited by Precrush, 06 April 2016 - 01:06 AM.

I'm sorry.

I know a couple players who reached the top without spending a cent in this game purely through dedication and effort, which is without doubt reachable.

I personally know one of them, and 6 months of 8-hours-a-day playing aren't exactly what I call "reachable" for anyone. Having to work on a character for 1.500 hours (not play, but work) isn't quite what I deem enjoyable, and said player told me more than once "never again". It's more than only time-consuming at this point.


If the sole fact that anything can be bought with purely virtual currency is enough to state that a game isn't anything close to a pay-to-win one, then you might look at <removed> as a fair game for free users. Everything can be bought with gold rather than real money, sure, but the gap between the time it takes for a paying user to reach higher heights and for a free user to come close to this level is what's important ; otherwise most of the deemed "p2w" games are only "pay-to-speed-up", as some might say.

I'm not saying DS is a pay-to-win game (as a matter of fact, I don't know if it is), just that your point doesn't make much sense. A full set of high-tier cards is an excruciating pain to obtain, whereas a paying user can grab one of these within a few hours given the IM buyers are reluctant to trust him. Of course this feature is to be witnessed in any other "free-to-play" game as an income for publishers, but once more, it only is the amount of time it takes to gather these without financial support that's important.


There are two extremes of it : <removed> and similar games on one hand, with absurd rules that make paying not only an option, but the only viable choice if one thinks that enjoying a game doesn't have to come with being bound to spend 2.000 hours of mindless farm. MOBAs and the like on the other hand, which features are unlocked from the beginning, without a need to pay for anything, ever, as only "skill" and overall comprehension of the game matter after a certain, reasonable amount of time spent playing (way below 200 hours, namely level 20 and some in game currency for <removed> , less for some other games such as RO2, probably even 0 hour for <removed> since it doesn't seem to have any requirement other than skill to "reach the top").

DS seems to be around the middle of that thanks to the many decisions taken by the staff regarding access to premium content for free users, but 1.000+ hours aren't quite a reasonable amount of time. It's a number of hours that not everyone can invest in anything other than work, studies and the like, and as such isn't fit for a game with a PvP mode such as this one, where gear matters this much more than skill.


Thus, I reiterate my suggestion about flags decreasing its holder's total, current stats, and support Flubsy's demand of a complete removal of death buffs (both at a time). 10% of current def on a low-to-middle damage mitigation are close to nothing, while it means a lot for a very high damage mitigation : if one were to lose 10% overall damage resistance, the one who took 10% of incoming damage would then see his HP drop twice as fast (90 => 80% damage mitigation), while the one with 50% of said damage resistance would take only 20% more (50 => 40%) * . Removing buffs given upon death would prevent anyone from abusing them, while the flag debuffs would both cripple the greedy ones to no end and promote the defense of your teammates, as flags would have to be scattered among the team (thus requiring teamplay in order to keep everyone as safe as possible) in order to avoid having a terribly weak, single flag holder. Who thought it was a good idea to let any by-runner drop the HP of a carrier of 10 flags with only a few attacks ?

I also insist on a 30% to 50% multiplicative element damage mitigation for every player attending to a Battlequare, in order to cope with hyper-stacking and 2.000 element attack lv.60 attack-speed-reliant classes. You know, the ones that make you go "poof".


*It would work for about any (def -> %mitigation) function, be it linear, square root or logarithmic.


Edit : Daaaaaaaamn. Oh well, just... nevermind. Read if so you wish.
Edit by Chimi: please refrain from comparing DS to competitors games, as per the forum rules.

Edited by VModChimichanga, 06 April 2016 - 02:27 AM.