Battlesquare balancing with Preset gear under level 80

I think having preset gear for battlesquare may be a great alternative to who want to try out pvp and at the same time balance or even the playing field. This is a great way to counter act those who stacked heavily for a low level bsq after reaching late game.

 

For those who have already enchanted, can still pvp in rooms with other people who want to fight them rather than being a 1 side massacre in battle square. Maybe in an even playing field one can learn skill rather than relying on stacking.

 

We can make use of the cp and trade-in system for a different approach to give bonuses or different stat boosts or even sets. (mspd, atk spd, etc) Just because the word preset may have the connotation for isolation of build, this does not mean diversity can not exist. 

It can be further balanced after testing it for a while.

 

With all this happening stacking is less of a priority unless it is to pve faster and etc. Everyone can try out pvp for fun without spending huge bucks. Why did I exclude late game? Because you have time from levels 1-79 to start making gold and spend it on other things or to look towards your future making the ultimate character. (As popcorn wanted, more of a main and less of abusing alts) If you want to try out different characters, you have a level range of (20)-40-79 with balanced gear to experiment, thus letting you choose the best class for you either in pvp or pve or even both. Popcorn also mentioned the purpose of this genre of game is to level and progress, not stop leveling and "camp", thus not letting any forms of exp containers to exist in game.

 

 

This is not about ranked pvps, but bsqs and maybe be taken into a setting after elements are balanced not now.

When elements are balanced, in 85, all you need is a +20 weapon and back to effectively survive and compete with the toughest of players. You can EASILY save up this amount of gold or more if you don't spend all your gold leveling from 1-79 on costumes or something.

 

Casual players would most likely agree to this, but what do those who stack a lot in lower leveled bsqs think about it?

 

I would also like to ask, what is the purpose of stacking excessively in lower leveled bsqs? Is it to pve better/ farm? If so then balancing pvp for all would be nice. If it's just for the sake of crushing new players, then that's what it is, if it's to compete with those who have already stacked then it would also be okay to even the playing field.

Edited by Agitodesu, 08 April 2016 - 05:59 PM.

Perm capping had existed long before battlesquare. Even as low as perm 30-40 existed for the sake of challenge back when cap was 60-65.

Nowadays it seems to exist for a sake of PvP'ing outside the PoS filled 80+

Getting rid of stacking would mean money loss for the company and make spending money in this game more worthless.  Doesn't make sense for a company trying to make money.

Nowadays it seems to exist for a sake of PvP'ing outside the PoS filled 80+

 

Then preset gears indeed would help them a lot.

 

Getting rid of stacking would mean money loss for the company and make spending money in this game more worthless.  Doesn't make sense for a company trying to make money.

 

Providing a reliable way for everyone to obtain insurance scrolls, souls etc. in reasonable amounts, without spending a cent, might not make sense either if stacking has to have any worth. Thankfully, it doesn't have to be like that, and a game will always be healthier as well as yield higher benefits in the long run if players are driven by affection and common sense rather than "necessity". A lot of games were shut down because the majority of players simply couldn't enjoy spending money as the only way to do anything within a reasonable amount of time.

 

Stacking in order to play against other stacked players is fine, and can be done in a PvP room without the need for players who want to enjoy the game rather than work on it to be killed within a few hits ; if it's precisely about wrecking newbies because it's funny, then there are plenty of reasons to remove it.

 

 

Maybe CP and signs of Hero could be a way for people to sacrifice a few stats while boosting a few other ? Something like survivability for damage output, movespeed over other things, crowd control resistance or %increase on chances to succeed in crowd controlling... It would add some depth to a mode that seems to lack it. It'd give people a goal in playing PvP, too, which might bring more players in Bsq if they feel they are useful as long as they're playing well. For an open PvP mode to let older / richer players win against the other regardless of their actual skill is just dumb, and having everyone from each class have the same stats (with variations and specializations) should do more good than bad.

 

Look, if people have a reason to play PvP and enjoy the game, I suppose they will stay, and the longer they stay, the higher the probability to spend money. That's why greedy producers bring masses of paid stuff into the games they want to exploit, just so that people stay and spend on things they deem worthwhile. If the whole game is worthwhile rather than only a few items in the shop... well, I guess it can't be that bad.

 

 

I'm all for it ! It's be more reasonable than flag debuffs, too, but I suppose both of them can exist.

Edited by OokamiNeko, 09 April 2016 - 12:22 AM.

My opinion on this, like I said when this was brought up in that other topic, is that we shouldn't have more then one PvP mode with fixed stats. The reason for this is simple, PvP is what one mostly gears for, and that's why one buys IM.

 

That in mind, I think it's way better to have that one mode be a normal pvp mode, preferably a ranking mode with a ladder to climb. In multiplayer PvP there's more room to make up for the gear difference with skill since it's more chaotic in nature. It's also possible to make bsq more fun to do for everyone by adding more tactical elements, what ever those would be. A ranked mode brings all the benefits of getting to test characters and so on, but I think would discourage IM sales less.

 

I get the sense that there's some hostility toward players that stack up in lower lvl bsq's, which is sort of understandable. But really can you blame people for wanting to have the power fantasy? At least on eu the lower lvl bsqing emerged gradually after people realized it was more balanced there, less people had insane gear. You could do well with relatively bad gear. But after some time it did get worse and worse, with fully geared characters appearing. So really this wouldn't adress the original root of the problem, which is that high lvl bsq. And I don't think it'd be fair to punish these people this hard for building their char only for low lvl bsq. I'm also pretty sure it's still easier to survive in say lvl 49 bsq. Items have less base def, which means +20 items are relatively weaker. f6 rings are weaker, and very few want to bother with those. You can't get as much ele dmg, and anybody can get an ok amount of that with the lvl 40 ele weapon. Meanwhile there's a lot of cheap options in gear to give you a lot more hp (relative to what you have at that stage). So with cheap gear you can do a lot better then what you could do at lvl 80 bsq. There's value in that.

 

Also, I think a significant amount of people would just never bother with gearing up or getting past lvl 79 with this kind of system, there's many reasons to do that already. So I'm pretty sure this would just make capping more popular. I would happily just make a lvl 49 char and bsq there for days, not gearing up my main one bit until I had enough gold to have insane gear (a very very long, "sane people would quit" amount of time). That's with this system in the current game mind you.

 

Think that's all the problems. Then to the positives.

 

Obviously Bsq would be balanced in gear, making it more accessible. 

 

I think this would be best as a place holder system until elements someday (sigh) get the attention they deserve, not the other way around. If they get nerfed so bad that you can survive with a +20 back and some hp gear, then I don't see a reason for fixed stats in lower lvl bsqs either anymore. It'd be easy enough to get into it at that point anyway.

 

While having this in the current game would  further encourage capping, it also would reinvigorate the PvP scene somewhat. I'd also pair this up with better bsq rewards across the board, but especially for the 80-85 lvl range where there'd be no fixed stats. That'd mean people had to choose, either they go in the balanced, less competitive bsq with worse rewards, or they do their best in the high lvl bsq. That'd counter the capping a little or a lot, depending on what the difference in rewards is. With out this I don't think it'd work.

 

All in all, since I believe it's an either/or situation, I'd rather have that ranked pvp. But fixed stats would work and make the game better (at least for now). I don't know how the producer would respond to this though. It'd still leave us with way too many bsq's a day, running and no tactical elements really. Those are lesser things, just saying this wouldn't magically make bsq a perfect or even a good game mode.

Edited by Precrush, 09 April 2016 - 06:06 AM.

More people bsq than ranked pvp in general. Also likewise bsq is more popular than normal pvp, this is because the simplicity to enter. You have to make rooms, shout, call, etc.

Those are problems that the normal pvp has, it's horrible. I mean the ranked mode is so bad it makes me sick, no one seriously played it even when it came out. And ye more people bsq, that's why it's a bigger reason for people to gear up then normal pvp. Ranked pvp is where it's at now days in multiplayer games though, if we had a proper one it be very beneficial for the game. If there was a proper ranked mode wouldn't you want that to be gear balanced rather then BSQ? In ranked pvp gear would pretty much be everything. That's all I'm saying.

Personally I prefer overcoming insurmountable odds.

 

 

Reality: Not enough people play bsq in general.  Teams are almost always unbalanced.  There's 8 bsq's a day meaning almost every bsq is empty because it's spread out and this caters more towards PvE players as well.  As many people seem to dislike me in lv 60-64, I'm usually going up against 3-4 guilds on my own.  Without stacking I would be toast.  And even stacked, it's hard to win as people take advantage of hacks and bugs in the game.  If people REALLY REALLY wanted a "fair" bsq, just make a ranked bsq like ranked pvp.  But given the nature of people, no one would play it as noticed by ranked pvp.  I think I'm one of the few that's played around 200 matches in ranked pvp and those are hard to find as it has to be 2v2 and not 1v1.  

Too tired to argue, so I'll add just this : the sole reason for me not to attend to any Bsq is the fact that you almost always find a team of absurdly powerful players on one side. Be it mine or the opponent's, it's just not by winning without doing a thing, nor by being wrecked as soon as I jump into the battlefield, that I can have any fun. I assume this, more than 8 instances of Battlesquare a day, is what has people refrain from going there at all.

 

 

As for ranked PvP... well, probably more people would try it if there were any rewards that are deemed worthwhile. I don't know, maybe a few exclusive sets representing a grade (novice > veteran > elite > legend, or something), cosmetic medals, whatever. Just something that actually gives people a visible goal.

obvious is obvious, build your gears, get some friends instead of asking warp portal to spoon feed you.  

obvious is obvious, build your gears, get some friends instead of asking warp portal to spoon feed you.  

 

Thank you for agreeing this whole-heartedly with the fact that PvP is more about gear than skill. Older and/or richer players wrecking newbies by pressing a single key is the antithesis to "open to everyone", and more widely to the concept of a "game". Playing this mode shouldn't require any hundred of hours just to avoid going down within a few hits without having a chance to kill your opponent, nor do anything useful.

It's stupid to work on a game for the sole purpose of being able to play it. Dungeons require investment and some sort of dedication since higher-leveled ones bring higher rewards, but PvP should be fun to anyone without any such requirements, as it still doesn't bring anything.

And ten friends who aren't stacked themselves will weigh about as much as a feather.

 

The low population of Bsq is mostly due to the attitude of some players who build characters as powerful as possible to crush everything they can without breaking a sweat. It isn't newbie-friendly at all, and very few people will keep trying after having been beaten or carried 5 times in a row by some Invoker that was unkillable as well as gatling down everything on the playing field.

no just because I'm saying work on your gears doesn't mean this game is 100% gear based.

there's a difference when someone with just +5 gears enter bsq and someone with +12 or higher enters

 

stop crying since building +20 is 100% do-able and with an element weapon, it's feasible to compete with those that go all out.

With +20 and an ele wep all you get to do is send a clip to that show "Destroyed in seconds". And even full +20 PoS and a +20 elga wep is a pretty darn steep hill to climb, should that someday be enough.

the topic is about bsq under lv 80 not over as PoS mainly pertains to lv 80+

Well then you missed the point completely with that comment, op wants to let lower lvl people try bsq without getting crushed, and then you say they should just get +20ies on their lvl 40 characters. I don't think that's a reasonable thing to ask from a new comer. In general you could stop labeling every discussion on how to improve things as crying, even if you don't agree.

Edited by Precrush, 10 April 2016 - 12:54 AM.

Lv.80- Bsq indeed, where 2.000 element attack can make your +12 gears about useless anyway. I believe that "working on your gears" won't have any use if you can't grab a number of resistance cards, which aren't exactly easy to obtain. 10.000 resistance in even 2 elements (provided your opponents all use the same cards, which is possible if you're facing ET, but that's it) won't let you survive that much longer, provided you indeed can obtain this much within a reasonable time, which I doubt. If you want to avoid being killed within seconds, you need defense, but also health, element resistance, movement speed to some extent, a +20 weapon at least... which are way harder to obtain than only +12 gear.

 

It isn't anything personal, just a statement. Battlesquare isn't beginner-friendly at all, and for a larger amount of people to actually try and enjoy this mode requires a number of changes to the way it's played. I'll repeat it : having the upper hand in a fight solely because of seniority is stupid. Gear and time spent are more important than actual skill and talent, and that makes open PvP just not worth the time of many, relatively new users.

 

 

As it is now divided into level ranges, PvP should be enjoyable for everyone, not just the ones who have at least another character with which they can hoard on resources and thus gear up a capped one. A "normal" player will change level ranges more often than once every two months, and gearing up for the sole purpose of playing PvP means that one should stop earning experience in order to dedicate themself to having items suitable for a mode that won't bring them any resource, experience, nothing tangible. Participating in open PvP as it is now (and actually doing anything there) is a curb on character growth, and as such isn't affordable to, let's say, a first lv.50 character.

 

This is why it has to be changed. The need for a player to gear up for only one mode that won't bring them anything substantial isn't justified, and makes a lot of relatively new users reluctant. I believe it's understandable, as stagnating at a given level isn't any fun for them. If you have any clue how this game works, you usually have to gear up a high-level character in order to hoard on money and consumables, and then think about creating another in order to play PvP. This is absurd, as it requires a lot more than just wanting to play. I'm all for a game where people with higher skill and initiative win over the ones who only press 3 keys (excluding movement ones) during a whole match, and Battlesquare is just the opposite : however more skill and initiative you have, if you don't have the gears needed to survive attacks and deal a heavy amount of damage, you just can't do a thing. A full +10 set (including weapon and back) won't allow you to do anything other than die in 3 seconds after having received all death buffs, and scratch the armor of your opponent if they were careless enough to let you come close to them. And even a +10 full set isn't something many players will get on their own for their first character, as it isn't needed in PvE.

 

 

In a nutshell : open PvP should be open, not closed to everyone other than experienced players.

Edited by OokamiNeko, 10 April 2016 - 10:15 PM.

The thing is that guy has actually been honest and correct regardless;

1. Pre-set gear mode should be it's own thing. Like an unrated battleground you can participate in optionally. Otherwise the game would suffer due to no one needing anything to start.

2. Losing to a group or even just 1 bored guy full of +20s doesn't mean nerf the mode to oblivion. Only actual concerning things, where all the gear and skill in the world won't help should be addressed. Skills, Classes, aspects of the game mode itself, elements, etc. Once elements gets a balance 70-79 might actually see the classic +20 back/weapon makes you viable.

3. Even if both teams were 100% mirrored, you'd still see common, complained about issues; Run stalling, Heal spamming, etcs. This is a universally flawed game mode and people are abusing it to death. People are even going to absurd lengths to win and for what? A worthless SoH, a few Kryos runs worth of gold, and a pathetic smack-talk attempt? Seems pretty pathetic considering a guild with years worth of rumors and notorious bad behavior has stooped to that level for years like it's how they get a fix or something. The mode itself needs a proper look at before you introduce an alternate, preset gear mode. I already beat Battlesquare to death on what's flawed about it.

4. Also what limits this from happening more than anything is client restrictions. Suggestions on even small Quality of Life changes are shot down or forever kept in the "Big box of suggestions that'll take a year+ to happen." Because WarpPortal was given the worst thing to work with which included zero instruction. Even if they approved you won't see this for a year or even longer. Now I ask you, are you willing to sit through Paradox/ET BSQ's and EW's for that long? An element system rework would come long before this would.

It's a suggestion with good intent, but people here forget that this is outright the worst game to work with in bringing stuff to life.

We aren't going to see ele changes this year either it seems. There are already elements in the game that allow for this kind of stuff, there's the bad handicap in pvp and set ms at race. I recon this kind of thing is easier to do then fixing elements. Fixed stats would be mostly down to the technical side, while elements have a lot more to take into consideration on top of the technicalities.

Other then that I pretty much agree, though I think we should get a proper ranked with fixed stats. Since that'd be a new thing, it wouldn't make IM less desireable than it is now. If you want to fight 1v1s balanced stats you can do that already. Ranked is about skill, not about gear, that's my take on that.

Should bsq get the attention it needs, I recon systems other than fixed stats can be introduced to fix it.

Edited by Precrush, 10 April 2016 - 05:08 AM.

If they fix stats, what stops people from locking in 1v1. Have skill all you want, people will lock. How would we fix that also? Can't just ban someone for using their skills. 

It isn't about nerfing anything to oblivion, nor about a particular player losing against whoever you see fit, but about providing anyone a fair chance to actually do something other than suicide or follow the dude in shiny armor. Battlesquare is for now beyond worthless for a first character, as it requires grinding, exp losses, focus on things you won't keep for even 10 levels, none of which are any fun for someone wanting to actually enjoy the game. You virtually cannot play open PvP without having a high-leveled first character, which doesn't have much to do with anything other than sheer stupidity.

 

A game mode should be played, not worked on. What would you say to a friend wanting to try Bsq ? "Don't worry, you just have to spend 200 hours on this character, without leveling up nor doing anything other than gather gold, and probably you won't feel too useless if no one decides to destroy you specifically" ?

Such high prerequisites only to spar with a few other players is just nonsense. Battlesquare doesn't even feature any ranking system, no worthwhile reward... There's only fun to be had, so WHY ON EARTH should one not be able to have any fun there without spending this much time on it ?

 

 

Why would DS suffer from open PvP being indeed open to everyone ? As far as I know, it's in everyone's best interest to have new players experience the game as much as possible, in order for them to decide whether they should stay. Locking them out of a game mode can't help them doing so, or rather it probably does help in choosing to leave since open PvP sucks that much.

 

Why do you bring up individuals' questionable deeds in a topic about making Bsq a mode for everyone to play ? No one in their right mind should oppose a limited group's behaviour to the will to change things for the better. People run, that's great, with equivalent movespeed they'll have more chances to be caught. Some heal themselves, good, with reasonable defense and damage on both sides it'll only be a sane thing to do. Some can't stand losing because it hurts their ego, fine ! It's not like you can get rid of them anyway. The only way to have them cause less trouble is to try and change things that let them abuse flaws in this game mode, and this is what we're trying to do here. Stating that "bad apples are bad anyway" isn't helping, and is more than lacking if you intend to have anyone see it as a reason to keep things the way they are.

 

 

It may take some time to happen, so what ? It isn't a reason not to think about ways to make the game more enjoyable. Also I don't believe an overhaul of elements would take any less time than setting stats to a given value for each class. This isn't a good intent, it's an attempt at making things fairer.

Like I have stated before, perm alternate characters have existed before Battlesquare was a thing. For any reason.

Having played both sides of the argument (Having crap gear vs having acceptable gear) I understand the issues that pvp has from gear alone. Even dumbing down gear for your foe yourself can bring harm to your playstyles.

I bring up individuals because it was these extreme cases that led to discoveries of said problems with the game. To any player, members of these guilds would be assumed to be the pinnacle or highest potential gear difference they'll experience. I could go in great detail on what's wrong with both sides but I do not wish to see another topic locked or pushed off topic into becoming a dead post like so many have. Especially as to why said "bad apples" will permanently be an issue regarding balance in a PvP.

You keep bringing work vs play in regards to a game but have you personally experienced the effort required? Hundreds of dollars perfect randomizing, weeks if not months spent obtaining sockets. You can go over anyone's methods and know that it takes extreme work to get into this. I'd like to see your characters and pvp experience to know whether or not you understand.

Yet you claim making something more fair is not for good intent? I stated that your intent with allowing players from all around an opportunity at true skill pvp is good but you stated otherwise.

Edited by Coolsam, 10 April 2016 - 07:25 AM.

Well then you missed the point completely with that comment, op wants to let lower lvl people try bsq without getting crushed, and then you say they should just get +20ies on their lvl 40 characters. I don't think that's a reasonable thing to ask from a new comer. In general you could stop labeling every discussion on how to improve things as crying, even if you don't agree.

 

I didn't bring up to topic of PoS.  You did.  Reread the thread.

 

Nothing wrong with having people upgrade their gears.  Promoting upgrade of gears is always good.  I worked pretty hard for my stuff and I don't see anything wrong with that.  I was under geared for a long period of time and my subs are fairly under geared, but I'm still able to have fun in bsq/pvp.  Skill and teammates can make up for that difference.  If someone's gear is bad and they join bsq and get stomped on, they will realize they need to work on gears.  Doesn't matter if it's low level bsq or high level bsq.  It's part of the game.  If it wasn't everyone would just have lv XX naked characters.  At that point, why not introduce a second server that's pure pvp based like they did in asia for the biannual pvp tournaments?

 

With all the freebies from warp portal the past few months and events, there should be no reason to complain about it being hard to soul craft and enchant.  It is way easier to obtain insurance and craft with a high rate than before.

 

You're asking a basically a f2p game which makes its money off people upgrading gears to not make money.  

Well the phrase "good intent" has a bit of a condecending tone to it in my mind at least, feels like saying that's all it is.

Bsq is currently the n.1 or n.2 reason to get gear for. That's why making it fixed stats could hurt the game, even with 80-85 left out of that. Also people would be mad to see their bsq chars go, some of those people have worked hundreds and thoussands of hours on them. Those are legimate concerns, nothing that can be taken lightly.

One thing with bsq is that with bad gear you are a negative influence on your team, since you take up a spot that could be used for a better geared player. It's not as bad as EW, but it's still bad. I think that's the main problem with those modes, It'd take a lot away from the frustration if you knew that no matter what you did, the team was still better off with you in there. This is something fixed gear would fix, but I suspect it can be fixed via other means too, for example letting the currently losing team get a numerical advantage by letting people join it freely. That's just a quick (and admitedly quite bad if that's all it was) alternative.

Bsq is currently just about fun, and it's more fun with good equipment, which is why people gear up. To have an advantage. Taking away advantages aqcuired by paying is always a tricky question in f2p games. I think with bsq we can do without that If we get overall balancing of stats (elements), something to boost the tactical side of things (my flag debuff idea?), and something to prevent people from being a negative influence (additional ways to earn points? Changes to the way teams are formed?).

As a side note, I think saying that there'll always be bad apples is useless in any conversation. It doesn't mean anything as far as I'm concerned, when things are bad they should be made better regardless. I think anything the game clearly allows for goes, but if something is clearly abusive or just overall harmful then it needs to be fixed. If people find a new harmful thing, that'll have to be fixed too. There isn't an unlimited amount of these, and the next case will almost always be less significant then the last.

You keep bringing work vs play in regards to a game but have you personally experienced the effort required? Hundreds of dollars perfect randomizing, weeks if not months spent obtaining sockets. You can go over anyone's methods and know that it takes extreme work to get into this. I'd like to see your characters and pvp experience to know whether or not you understand.

 

Look, that's exactly what I'm saying should change, at least for PvP requirements... I could show you my spear and wings if [...]*, but that wouldn't even be a proof of any work, neither for myself nor any other player, for reasons you might understand given not-so-recent happenings. I promise I'll shoot you a message in game as soon as feasible though.

Also this suggestion is an attempt at making things better, not just something that maybe we could think about at some point, as a "good intent" would suppose.

 

I also thought that creating a new topic would be a better thing to do than flooding this one with remarks and ideas. Thus : https://forums.warpportal.com/index.php?/topic/195680-lower-scaling-for-bonus-stats-in-battlesquare-open-pvp/

 

*Beep : access denied.

Edited by OokamiNeko, 11 April 2016 - 03:08 AM.

I didn't bring up to topic of PoS.  You did.  Reread the thread.

 

Nothing wrong with having people upgrade their gears.  Promoting upgrade of gears is always good.  I worked pretty hard for my stuff and I don't see anything wrong with that.  I was under geared for a long period of time and my subs are fairly under geared, but I'm still able to have fun in bsq/pvp.  Skill and teammates can make up for that difference.  If someone's gear is bad and they join bsq and get stomped on, they will realize they need to work on gears.  Doesn't matter if it's low level bsq or high level bsq.  It's part of the game.  If it wasn't everyone would just have lv XX naked characters.  At that point, why not introduce a second server that's pure pvp based like they did in asia for the biannual pvp tournaments?

 

With all the freebies from warp portal the past few months and events, there should be no reason to complain about it being hard to soul craft and enchant.  It is way easier to obtain insurance and craft with a high rate than before.

 

You're asking a basically a f2p game which makes its money off people upgrading gears to not make money.  

^, too many freebies.