Problem with Ignition Break Skill

you can ignore 99% of the mobs tho, and just kill the gardeners, its quite possible to do it at that lvl tbh

I wouldn't include Hazy @ less than 120 at the very least.  Those mobs hit like a truck. And you'll lack the hit to hit them back.

 

More like Sara's Memory.....

I was talking about instances he could alt a 101 stringer in with his (presumably) much higher leveled RK

I wouldn't say most people solo PvM because there are no evidences suggesting so. My experience with RO has been a complete opposite. Majority of my instances and PvM have been with a group of friends. If you're an instance grinder, there are far better classes just for that purposes. You may be able to make BB+IB works on decent gears and such, but BB+IB makes little to no sense in competitive PvM and PvP environment, which I think a sufficient reason to regard the build as just "for fun" / trash build at its current state.  

Is there is a logical reason for any RK to dump so many resources into BB+IB build up until level 130 or so, then reinvest another set of gears and reset to DB RK just to progress further to end game? DB RK at low level are not so bad as people make it sound. It's not difficult achieve 10-15k per DB at all with decent HP/SP + EA gear while wearing a Firelock / Gold Acidus Temporal DEX with 120 DEX at level 100. 

If DB RK can hold mostly on its own with average gears and much better with godly gear while having the opportunity to excel even further in a party settings with stringer and wandy? Isn't that make DB RK the most logical choice while BB+IB RK fall flats in other scenario other than solo PvM settings? 

I think most RK would want to play Physical build at some point. But it's Ragnarok Online, if you're not following a mainstream cookie cutter build, then your character likely ended up as a noob. Physical RK is no exception especially at after level 150. 

I have no problem soloing OGH with 150 DB RK on 1B gear with no MvP cards. The first floor is cake walk especially with string / wandy alting. On the other hand, 3-4 Nightmare Raydric Archer or any ranged attack mobs with knock back spreading out across the screen can easily make a quick work on Physical RK with a comparable PvM skills as DB RK.  Second floor is a big challenge due to mobs are tough to kill, but enough 3 DB spams a second they are all dead pretty quic. The real challenge have always been keeping stringer and wandy alive during all that mess. So it's always better if you have 1 AB in the party.  If you have 2x kiel or tao, then OGH makes a cake walk for DB RK. 

 

I am new to the game, but I never see that skills from a Rune Knight. But from what I understand, I think Rune knights are meant to be a portable flame thrower. 

They're really more just there to point the dragon in the right direction. 

Really, the class should be called Rune Dragon and the mount/riding beast NPC should put a knight on your dragon sprite instead of the other way around. 

I wouldn't say most people solo PvM because there are no evidences suggesting so. My experience with RO has been a complete opposite. Majority of my instances and PvM have been with a group of friends. If you're an instance grinder, there are far better classes just for that purposes. You may be able to make BB+IB works on decent gears and such, but BB+IB makes little to no sense in competitive PvM and PvP environment, which I think a sufficient reason to regard the build as just "for fun" / trash build at its current state.  

Is there is a logical reason for any RK to dump so many resources into BB+IB build up until level 130 or so, then reinvest another set of gears and reset to DB RK just to progress further to end game? DB RK at low level are not so bad as people make it sound. It's not difficult achieve 10-15k per DB at all with decent HP/SP + EA gear while wearing a Firelock / Gold Acidus Temporal DEX with 120 DEX at level 100. 

If DB RK can hold mostly on its own with average gears and much better with godly gear while having the opportunity to excel even further in a party settings with stringer and wandy? Isn't that make DB RK the most logical choice while BB+IB RK fall flats in other scenario other than solo PvM settings? 

I think most RK would want to play Physical build at some point. But it's Ragnarok Online, if you're not following a mainstream cookie cutter build, then your character likely ended up as a noob. Physical RK is no exception especially at after level 150. 

I have no problem soloing OGH with 150 DB RK on 1B gear with no MvP cards. The first floor is cake walk especially with string / wandy alting. On the other hand, 3-4 Nightmare Raydric Archer or any ranged attack mobs with knock back spreading out across the screen can easily make a quick work on Physical RK with a comparable PvM skills as DB RK.  Second floor is a big challenge due to mobs are tough to kill, but enough 3 DB spams a second they are all dead pretty quic. The real challenge have always been keeping stringer and wandy alive during all that mess. So it's always better if you have 1 AB in the party.  If you have 2x kiel or tao, then OGH makes a cake walk for DB RK. 

 

Can you also solo Devil's Tower, GMT, Bako, Nidhoggur's Nest?

Because a physical build can do all those and more without the need for MVP cards nor leveling and alting two other classes constantly.

well I guess nobody saw my IB RK leveling at NCT. i'm so sad.

..I-I did bro, I did. And you did great..yeah.

Can you also solo Devil's Tower, GMT, Bako, Nidhoggur's Nest?

 

Because a physical build can do all those and more without the need for MVP cards nor leveling and alting two other classes constantly.

And that's one of my point is when it comes to efficiency in farming those instances, there are far better class and build that can finish those instances in much lower cost and better efficiency. Dedicating huge resources and time into mediocre Physical RK just to farm instances solo makes no competitive sense to me, unless it's just for the laugh.

Non MVP DB Rk can probably finish almost as many instances solo/dual client as much as Physical at less convenient, but there are many other roles that DB RK can perform far better than Physical RK and that no other class can replace. Casual players who are not camping timer on instances isn't likely going to play the same instance every day alone anyways.

Also if they both share the same gears and all you have to do is make another character with a physical skill tree, then I'd say you have a very good point. Forcing you to reinvest entire inventory for Physical RK just make no sense in competitive PvM whatsoever. I'd rather dump those cash into something far more efficient.  Variant build of classes like AS and AutoCrit Ranger can still share many gears and do just fine, except trapper which is more of a harassing build.  Why can't DB RK and BB+IB share the same gears and stats effectively since they are both offensive class?

It's a subjective contention that you and I probably will not agree on, which is ok. If newer player ask my opinion on what to build their first RK character, I would personally recommend them go straight to DB and simply disregard BB+IB altogether to save zeny. They will definitely not be disappointed in the performance like the original post, and certainly will not feel useless in any party while holding up ok doing anything solo.  

Can you also solo Devil's Tower, GMT, Bako, Nidhoggur's Nest?

 

Because a physical build can do all those and more without the need for MVP cards nor leveling and alting two other classes constantly.

There was a time I experimented with Hundred spears/Ignition break.  I had a hell of a hard time soloing Nidhoggur's Nest using this build.  Physical RK's seem to have it easier from what you're stating without MVPs (Kiels to be exact).

Now, I have both Water/Fire DB in addition to Hundred spears.  I've yet to conquer Mor's island because of the time limit.  I'm assuming an RK would definitely need to use Delay reductions to beat the clock.  Maybe a Tae G and 2 expert rings would suffice.

Old Glast Heim takes quite a bit of time with Hundred spears/DB.  Most of the time allotted is spent @ Raydrics and 2nd floor since the mobs there are Shadow property.  HS single target doesn't help either.

So I can attest each build has its own faults and excels at other areas.

And that's one of my point is when it comes to efficiency in farming those instances, there are far better class and build that can finish those instances in much lower cost and better efficiency. Dedicating huge resources and time into mediocre Physical RK just to farm instances solo makes no competitive sense to me, unless it's just for the laugh.

 

Non MVP DB Rk can probably finish almost as many instances solo/dual client as much as Physical at less convenient, but there are many other roles that DB RK can perform far better than Physical RK and that no other class can replace. Casual players who are not camping timer on instances isn't likely going to play the same instance every day alone anyways.

 

Also if they both share the same gears and all you have to do is make another character with a physical skill tree, then I'd say you have a very good point. Forcing you to reinvest entire inventory for Physical RK just make no sense in competitive PvM whatsoever. I'd rather dump those cash into something far more efficient.  Variant build of classes like AS and AutoCrit Ranger can still share many gears and do just fine, except trapper which is more of a harassing build.  Why can't DB RK and BB+IB share the same gears and stats effectively since they are both offensive class?

 

It's a subjective contention that you and I probably will not agree on, which is ok. If newer player ask my opinion on what to build their first RK character, I would personally recommend them go straight to DB and simply disregard BB+IB altogether to save zeny. They will definitely not be disappointed in the performance like the original post, and certainly will not feel useless in any party while holding up ok doing anything solo.  

None of your points pertain to my argument.

Other classes are better? Yeah, but the comparison is between a DB RK and a physical RK. We're talking about RK. Bringing other classes into the discussion is pointless since it'll always boil down to Gene/Ranger/GX.

Gear is too exclusive? This one actually favours a physical RK. Physical RK gear is and tends to be a lot more versatile than DB RK gear, from which the only two pieces you can use on other classes are the leech headgear (if you're even going with that and not a turkey which is more specific) and the Menblatt FAW. A physical RK can pretty much share their entire gear set minus class exclusive gear (like Black Ribbon) with other physical classes. It's only fair to approach this point from a blank slate - you can't assume the person already has DB gear and is then forced to 'reinvest' in physical gear. If we're talking about a new player who started out DB - low level DB gear is anything but expensive and it's entirely possible to resell and reroll once you hit max (this is something most people do anyway).

New player friendly build? I've already admitted DB is better for parties, better for leveling, etc etc and that it's a way better build for newer RKs. We weren't talking about new players or leveling though, we were talking about end game PVM. New players - go get yourself a DB gear set for 200m, level to 175 ezpz then sell your leveling gear and reset to whatever build you like. Since you can pretty much just live in TIs nowadays you can hit 150 on literally any class with any budget. DB is still better in that respect of course, so yeah, I won't be recommending an IB build to newbies either.

So, endgame PVM, most of which tends to be solo (unless you're one of those players who does not PVM without a party) there isn't a clear winner between DB and physical because both have different strengths and weaknesses and excel in different areas. If it sounds like I'm repeating myself, I am, because you can't seem to get the point.

Making this clear again - we're not talking about min-max creating a dedicated build to farming instances/MVPs. Because like I've also said, that just boils down to Gene/Ranger/GX and RKs are left out entirely. We're talking about players who like the RK class and are wondering which build - DB or physical - to pick and have fun with in PVM. If said player was a super competitive farmer he shouldn't be playing RK full stop and my argument isn't for him, because not everyone is that dedicated to getting the most out of everything.

But if you're a pretty average guy with a 175 RK who's looking to solo instances/PVM mostly for fun but also for a bit of money on the side, you can't go wrong going either DB or physical. Of course, if you're really interested in WoE too, and/or if you have a bunch of good friends who you party PVM with often, DB is better for you. 

If I was presenting the two builds to someone undecided on an endgame PVM build for RK, that's how I would lay it out. Sure, overall, DB wins. But consider that the majority of RO players are PVM players. And the only way to party consistently for PVM is to join a guild. The majority of those players are guildless, therefore it's highly likely that they're solo PVM players first and foremost.

And in solo PVM, both builds can kick pretty decent ass.

tl;dr If you're super competitive you shouldn't be playing RK anyway and the DB vs physical argument is pointless. If you're an inbetween who's hardcore enough to want to farm instances but still casual enough to want to do it on a class you enjoy rather than a top tier class you don't enjoy, both DB and physical are viable options. 

Edited by fuyukikun, 27 May 2016 - 04:52 AM.

Edited by Ashuckel, 27 May 2016 - 04:35 AM.

How is pure physical RK and DB RK an apple to apple comparison?  They do not share any stats and gear. One is a ranged caster, and the other one is a physical melee. It's very shallow if you're only consider the class title "Rune Knight" as the sole comparing criteria while disregarding many other factors. 

Not many people can afford to gear both Physical and DB RK. Cory is an expert RO player and his other OP suggest he even struggle to gear both. You can still gear a decent DB RK and many of the gear will easily transfer to many other caster or ranged classes like Support Sorc, Gene, AB, Rebel, etc. They also serve a very nice role of continuous massive AOE fire/water DPS with ability to survive just about anything, something other classes cannot offer. 

Physical RK and GX are not Apple to Orange comparion as you are trying to make it sound.  They are both physical melee classes and can share many gears like well enchanted RWC Ring. They also both benefit greatly from Gold Scarba Card, which is something DB RK would hardly want anyways. I am trying to see what role does Physical RK has that cannot easily be replaced by other classes? Each mainstream class usually always offer something unique about it, and I am struggling to see one for Physical RK. 

At the end of the day you can choose any criteria of comparison and it will work towards your argument. Mainstream RK is definitely the DB build due to superior utility that it provides in many end game scenario. Why spend so much zeny on a build and having to reset 15 level later and go for another (DB) build with a new set of inventory?  It's also a build that requires too many job level that will artificially cap your progress by having to be taxed and suicide to get job exp. In that sense I personally think pure BB+IB build makes no sense and just flat out sucks. You can probably make end game pure BB+IB work like you mentioned, but they are like a completely different class to me and nowhere Apple to Apple comparison like you make it sound. 
 

Same class, different builds, thats what they are saying, so you compare wich of those builds on a pvm enviroment (for the same class) deals better, and actually both are pretty good from an end game perspective. With like a ton of mvps probably DB do it better, but fact is P.RK doesnt need them, there is an entire pinned post of P.RK on the Swordman forum where you can see the really big potential of the class (no mvp or gods needed) so is fun that you has ever refered to that specific thread in this entire discussion.

Also they are saying that without mvps in a solo situation boths are pretty much equal in terms of usefulnes (and i also think that in those conditions P. RK are a little bit better because they are more versatile). If you see Slyk videos or BlackCross videos you will see that both RKs are pretty damn powerful in solo situations, if you compare then with mvps i think that DB of course is super powerful, but then you are comparing a 60-70b (and im just thiking in the mvps you need) gear with 3-4b gear (for a P. RK to be amazingly good). Thats it on a solo situation

Edited by Sewasan, 30 May 2016 - 08:22 AM.

I do the test with 175 RK against Lost Dragon.
DB Gears non buffed, just gear = 32-35,000. 
IB build +200 STR Bonus, +9 Hallowed Long Horn (santa poring) FS 6/6, +9FAW of power, x2 Peuz Seal, Peuz Plate, + STR Food, + STR Rune. = 47,000.
Lost Dragon is Shadow element he resist Dragon Breath 50% and Holy weapons deals +175% against him, still are you tell me the IB skill is comparable with DB? or useful? or have potential? i think is pure garbage. Even dealing more damage this time with buffs and bonus, DB still is more spameable and i can surpase IB damage with hp/ sp increase even if the mob resist elements, show me 70k neutral IB to change my build, because that is average DB damage at lvl 175.

Same class, different builds, thats what they are saying, so you compare wich of those builds on a pvm enviroment (for the same class) deals better, and actually both are pretty good from an end game perspective. With like a ton of mvps probably DB do it better, but fact is P.RK doesnt need them, there is an entire pinned post of P.RK on the Swordman forum where you can see the really big potential of the class (no mvp or gods needed) so is fun that you has ever refered to that specific thread in this entire discussion.

 

Also they are saying that without mvps in a solo situation boths are pretty much equal in terms of usefulnes (and i also think that in those conditions P. RK are a little bit better because they are more versatile). If you see Slyk videos or BlackCross videos you will see that both RKs are pretty damn powerful in solo situations, if you compare then with mvps i think that DB of course is super powerful, but then you are comparing a 60-70b (and im just thiking in the mvps you need) gear with 3-4b gear (for a P. RK to be amazingly good). Thats it on a solo situation

It's looping back to the old points. And I already told many reasons why I don't buy into that argument due to how inefficient and inflexible (in term of gears investment spendings) P RK is in a competitive PvM. Non-mvp DB RK can perform just as well in many solo scenario and superior in others for less the cost, mostly blaming the oversupply of DB RK gears in the server driving the cost down. If it's for fun build, then you can probably make it work like you mentioned. There are also not many good reason to start with BB+IB either due to huge reinvestment cost and penalty that comes with it. 

There's literally a one button win OP skill right in front of you, and it gets even more OP with stringer, and brokenly OP with MvP. Why capped yourself to a build that cannot exploit party buff and MvP cards, requires multiple buttons and gear switching, rune management, and it's not even vastly more powerful than a 1 single button skill on some 1B gear. You could also be focusing on potting and gear switching while spamming that 1 button.  The answer is pretty clear to me. It's like every DPS-based Ranger should have Arrowstorm, and every DPS Geneticist should have Acid Bomb and Cart Cannon. It almost makes no sense otherwise, if they are going for offensive build. 

I will personally avoid P RK until they get some serious buff and new gears. Now I will only play it if it's just for the fun and cool swordie factor and I have spare 2-3B around to throw around. It's pretty sick to see some P RK in mid TI doing 18k IB w/ multiple chaining combos but still having some struggle to keep wiping countless supplies of Incubus. Wheres on the other hand, the portable flame thrower RK on a string wipes them clean from far away under 1 second on much less costly gear pressing just 1 button. 
 

Edited by 3025140119203620510, 31 May 2016 - 03:34 AM.

This thread makes a lot more sense when you preface all of this guy's posts with: "In my uninformed and biased opinion..."

Hint: If you're going to preach the truth it helps to actually know what you're talking about first. Go play a physical RK to end game PVM and then maybe we can talk, because at this stage you're basing your conclusions on nothing but speculation, conjecture and a wildly skewed personal perspective.

welp. This is mine. It isnt 70k neutral IB. But it is using +9 Thanatos2hand with HunterFly and neutral.

Considering the fact that i have the same damage as you without +200 str from bp proc, +30str from str food and eden buff, and 75% extra damage from holy advantage, and 20% from santa poring card, i guess it is pretty decent?
 

Edited by DemliekCake, 31 May 2016 - 02:55 PM.

This thread makes a lot more sense when you preface all of this guy's posts with: "In my uninformed and biased opinion..."

 

Hint: If you're going to preach the truth it helps to actually know what you're talking about first. Go play a physical RK to end game PVM and then maybe we can talk, because at this stage you're basing your conclusions on nothing but speculation, conjecture and a wildly skewed personal perspective.

Nobody is preaching the truth here, including you. I am just presenting my subjective opinion for the short comings of P RK and it's not just specifically for end game Physical RK PvM  and why DB RK is a better build overall in a competitive sense. There are not many no reason for RK to go for BB+IB build, especially if they consider the build for transitioning purposes (level 100-130 then switch to DB, as it is extremely inefficient while DB RK holds up ok at lower level). End game DB RK also has more utility and potential than P RK in many scenario. While P RK can easily be replaced by other build from other class at much lower the cost.

Your lack of ability to look things in a bigger a picture is probably why we're having this contention now. It will also likely misleading many newyer players to go for a lackluster and expensive build in many PvM and WoE scenario outside particular solo actions. You have yet to addressed any of my concerns and I am willing to listen to your opinion. Your lines of credibility insults ultimately tells me you have no idea what you're talking about either, and you probably regret dumping 3-4B into a build that are not as good as you'd like it to be. But it's probably build that is a lot of fun for you, and that's perfectly ok. Majority of the RK in the server are already making a decision to go for DB builds and hardly anyone go for P RK for whatever reasons, and I personally think that's a most logical decision based on my personal analysis. 

And I think many of the veterans posters have clearly demonstrated how toxic this community is with one liner insults. It really gives out bad impression, and it is not the first time either. There are many times where peopleand newer players ask legitimate questions but got shutdown by forum "elitism" and call the OP noobs and stuff.  Everybody is entitled to their opinion, as you may agree or disagree.


 

Edited by 3025140119203620510, 01 June 2016 - 02:20 AM.

Majority of the RK in the server are already making a decision to go for DB builds [...]

hmm, I must be the odd man out.  I've just recently reset from Dragon Breath/Hundred Spear to pure Physical/IB/(dragon howling lel) and not looking back.  

In fact, yesterday I accomplished for the first time Isle of Bio w/ minutes to spare.  With my previous DB build, I failed 3-4x before I never bothered again. I possess no MVP/God items. My gear is pretty average to say the least.

+7 Eddga: 180m

+9 Sharp9 Fatal Violet Fear: 450m

+9 Immune FAW Fatal (No Petal!?): 600m

+6 Temporal Luk Delay/LuckyDay: 350m

CD mouth: 40m

Robo eye: 35m

Luk Glove: 8m

Medal Honor: ?

Total: 1.663 billion zeny.  So you don't "need" billions worth of zeny to be just as effective as Dragon Breath. It's about the same cost for a comparatively decent DB build.

Personally, I prefer to go against any type of element in this game, then be stuck in DB with a thumb up my bum when I encounter Holy, Shadow3,4 monsters.