Buff them stuff that thiefs throw

Boomerang and that ninja star

 

In my opinion and others may differ, but these skills overall plainly sucks. Damage completely sucks when compared to other skills, Aka outclassed by many skills. For those that pvp, players rarely use these skills at all because 1. it's not reliable. 2. It's not strong at all and other skills can replace this and overall be more useful. For those who use it probably are doing it for style. Those who pve probably have 0 use for these skills, yes players may toss these out for some reason, but are outclassed by the other 90% left over skills that out dps and chain into each other better.

 

I've done the pvp testing and a person who thew a devil dart at me with a +20 POS weapon (Note this is practically an end game weapon) it hit me for a whopping 180 damage. 180 damage.... considering that I have around 100,000 hp, and in bsq it is possible to hit 450,000 hp what in the world is 180 damage doing? Daggers for ninjas on the other hand do around 180+ while it throws out 7 at once and has the same mechanics (knockdown) as the dart while having a faster animation and increasing crit rate. Crits on the other hand, it goes up decently up to a massive 500 damage. Yeah massive indeed (not really).

On a side note, ninjas have a stronger dart % and base damage compared to the savages.

 

As a person who has fought and played as ninja and savage, I think these skills should get a buff to be seen in use more. These skills aren't game breaking because they disrupt your own comboes more than anything else. Surely there are ways to include them in, but in reality I have maybe seen 5 savages who used this skill and around 10+ people as ninjas regularly. That's approximately 7+ years worth of pvp.

The only reason why more ninjas use the darts is for the % hp reduction as the passive. Savages do not have it so that's why ninjas use this skill more than they do.

 

Compare cooldown to damage ratio with common skills for pve. Using windmill/headspin/final decision would out damage this by a huge margin. tossing this skill out will reduce your entire dps output. For ninjas generally ambush/violent blow/woodrush/mistvanish/especially daggers/and so on outdamage this skill and rarely do the skills mentioned go on cooldown at the same time. Most of the skills come back up by the time you use a couple skills. With the addition of fast chain attacks, you can land about 5+ default hits by the time the dart/boomerang hits a target. Even that out damages it.

 

I'm not ranting, but just giving a thought on these 2 particular skills, I find them lacking when I play as those classes, and especially when I pvp others and the few who do throw these out eventually lose or regret it a moment after saying "lol" or "whoops"

 

 

 

Sonic Boom(Savage)->buff damage+(faster animation optional)

 

180%+200->200%+400

 

230%+260->250%+600

 

280%+320->350%+1000

 

330%+380->500%+1200

 

380%+440->700%+1400

 

Devilstorm Dart-> Buff + (faster animation optional)

 

200%+200->250%+300

 

250%+500->300%+600

 

300%+800->400%+1000

 

350%+1100->550%+1350

 

400%+1400->700%+1800

 

 

These skills are prerequisites. Most players leave these skills at 2/5, I'd like to think that if you were to sink sp into these skills you get rewarded more. So I intentionally put a damage spike at 3-4-5.

 

The damage may seem high at first but using the math popcorn gave us for damage based on weapon, If you were to double the damage done in total (IE:Damage dealt by 2 darts combined is actually higher than doubling the % done with the skill instead so even if the numbers are slightly high here it's actually not that strong in the end)

 

What do you guys think about these skills? Do you use this to deal damage or to show off? How useful is this skill compared to other skills in pvp?pve?

Edited by Agitodesu, 21 June 2016 - 11:20 PM.

There are strong skills, there are weak skills. I dont see a problem with the Devil Dart. Its a swaggy skill, good to keep an opponent at distance and i use it often in a combo.

There are rly many ways to bind DevilDart into a combo. You can even catch with it if used right. Cant understand that player say "whoopsie" after using it..

Sry but if they dont know the hotkeys for their skills they cant be so good pvper. I never used it by mistake.

A faster animation would be cool at the one hand but at the other hand idk if its really needed.

Cant speak for savage since i never used that skill there.

I mean, dont u have that 1"useless" skill everywhere? Fortress for mages, Double Shot for archers and so on?!

I would rather go for increasing dmg and reducing cooldown at perfect strike.

I dont think a DevilDart buff is really needed. Stuff like a faster animation would bring it probably back at the skillbar of some pvper and would make it more usefull for sure, no question. Even tho it will lose a bit of its swaggyness

Edited by Turpi, 21 June 2016 - 11:59 PM.

Not going to argue with you at all since, your'e the type of person who probably think hammer crush is a great catching tool and is baffled why no one does this, but note, boomerang is 3rd class skill and so is the dart. Fortress is a 1st class skill, double shot is a 1st class skill. All 1st class skills don't make it to the main combos list, only a few actually do and I personally don't think 1st class skills should be stronger than the 2nd/3rd/4th class skills. That would be counter intuitive.

 

Is swaggyness meter scaled from how useless the skill is? Because you just shot your own foot. Obviously overused skills are the reliable ones thus not swaggy. I don't see anyone say holy moly that shootdown catch was sick! No one ever does that! /s Compared to a random boomerang into an rp prediction.

Edited by Agitodesu, 22 June 2016 - 12:11 AM.

 

[...]

As a person who has fought and played as ninja and savage, I think these skills should get a buff to be seen in use more. These skills aren't game breaking because they disrupt your own comboes more than anything else.

[...]

The only reason why more ninjas use the darts is for the % hp reduction as the passive. Savages do not have it so that's why ninjas use this skill more than they do.

[...]

What do you guys think about these skills? Do you use this to deal damage or to show off? How useful is this skill compared to other skills in pvp?pve?

 

Not always true, regardless of if the Skill was intentionally used or not and when it was, there should be enough time considering the time between trajectory and hit to used another available ground-ranged Skill.

Even if I danced before the Boom, I also use Seven and AKick (come on, the moves are so good to see and use '-').

 

 

Back in DS (gP-Fr.), I had used that Dart to bleed F7's Bombs and did more with Poison. #NeverAFKF7 (Only lag, if I was responsible though.)

 

 

They certainly aren't "overkilling" Skills, but that is quite noticeable when you see that you only need 10 Points per level.

I do that for both reasons; even though it would happen mostly because I ran out of available Skills.

I don't PvP.

Both can be helpful, but should they be used as "emergency Combo keeper", user should also be aware of the possibility of getting flinched by enemy attack.

I would like to include for those who don't pvp, if you get hit by a boomerang or dart, the recover speed is much faster and very risky unless you are stunning the enemy to land something to prevent them from getting up in the first place. By that means, autoing with the new fast chain combo on the first hit you can simply out damage boomerang or dart. Players aren't mob monsters where they stay donwn for a long time, they can recover the moment that boomerang touches you. Unless like I said the latter, but also in that regard regularly autoing while they are stunned is a way better alternative. While players roll, they are immune to any damage unless it is a skill that knocks them up, but still roll at a fast pace so they can lag walk out extremely fast, ruining you combo easily. This is why players predict where they roll rather than hit the person rolling at that time.

Edited by Agitodesu, 22 June 2016 - 12:05 AM.

Lel Agi.


X,x,z,z,x?! + Hammer crush is the most op catch ingame ;(

And btw, first class skills are mostly more usefull in any pvp that the lv 60+ skills. I dont even use the Destro skills in pvp.

As good as every first class skill makes it to the main combo list, lol.

Just saying for thieves: aerial frenzy, rocket punch, relauch abd that other relaunch skill. 3 of them are in every combo of mine.

For archers: aas, double shot, multishot ( even at endgame pvp one of the most op skills).

You must be a very special pvper if you dont use 1st class skills and if u think they are underpowered.

Thieves and Archers wouldnt deal so much dmg without their first class skills so pls ..


If u use Dart in a way that gives the opponent a chance to start a counter you obviously use it wrong :x

Edited by Turpi, 22 June 2016 - 12:16 AM.

To be honnest, increasing the damage of such skill would make the people spam it, waiting for their foes to get into it, just like Mage's magic missiles.
We could add instead a better effect so it becomes a real catchy skill, just like sword dance but I think it will make the same result as what I've stated above.

I think there's not much we can do about this skill atm, but we'll see what damage will have each skill after the damage calculation, maybe perfect strike will be stronger than ever, and get a lower cooldown too.

Wow, never thought that this will happen but i almost agree with you, numberman.

All 1st class skills don't make it to the main combos list, only a few actually do

 

Please read anything before you post, because I'm answering the same thing that's already been said before and your finding ways to argue with something that's already answered.

I don't think anywhere was it intended that I thought that all 1st class skills are bad and have no use. which again if you read something you'd understand.

To be honnest, increasing the damage of such skill would make the people spam it, waiting for their foes to get into it, just like Mage's magic missiles.
We could add instead a better effect so it becomes a real catchy skill, just like sword dance but I think it will make the same result as what I've stated above.

I think there's not much we can do about this skill atm, but we'll see what damage will have each skill after the damage calculation, maybe perfect strike will be stronger than ever, and get a lower cooldown too.

 

But this skill doesn't have reward to it like I mentioned you can recover from it much faster. +rolling makes it even easier to escape in the first place.
These boomerangs have much less damage output to something like missles anyways.

Maybe if you were comparing it to rocket punch where most thiefs decide to "throw them out randomly and call it predictions" with a low cooldown it's practically the purest form of what you don't like.

 

Personally, I hope they fix Atk/Matk/Def/Mdef/Resist/Eleatk. 

 

Considering that I take 0 damage from players with 100-10000+ elemental attack, and I take roughly +-200 damage from these "op" darts more or less 20 damage with aas and the list goes on, I think damage to health ratio is really dumb. Yes I do ungear myself to balance, but fully geared it's nearly pathetic.

 

Anyways tossing these random skills for close numbers, it does 180 damage. buffing it less than double it goes around less than 360 damage. I have 100,000(Pvp)-450,000(bsq) Hp tell me more about how throwing these at random will kill me?

As for early game with no gear, I can totally expect that, but wouldn't you also agree that swift strike, rocket punch, Sky penetration would be a better alternative to hit and run if using that method of I can win by throwing random things? Along with Provoke, RP, head spin, moonwalk for safety purposes?

Edited by Agitodesu, 22 June 2016 - 12:31 AM.

Pls u clearly said that only a few 1st class skills make it to an endgame combo. Same with second and third class skills. So what? There will be as good as always more 1st class skills in a combo than 4th class skills as long u dont play invo.

Again: If you use DevilDart right you dont have to worry about an enemy who rolls out of your combo. If you dont know how to use it i could teach you.

Edited by Turpi, 22 June 2016 - 12:30 AM.

But this skill doesn't have reward to it like I mentioned you can recover from it much faster. +rolling makes it even easier to escape in the first place.
These boomerangs have much less damage output to something like missles anyways.
Maybe if you were comparing it to rocket punch where most thiefs decide to "throw them out randomly and call it predictions" with a low cooldown it's practically the purest form of what you don't like.

Personally, I hope they fix Atk/Matk/Def/Mdef/Resist/Eleatk.

Considering that I take 0 damage from players with 100-10000+ elemental attack, and I take roughly +-200 damage from these "op" darts more or less 20 damage with aas and the list goes on, I think damage to health ratio is really dumb. Yes I do ungear myself to balance, but fully geared it's nearly pathetic.

I can't disagree with you at all !

I took the mage as an exemple, since it is my main class. But it's true that thieves have that rocket punch thingy they throw everytime.

Then I actually wonder why boomerang should be buffed atm. Since a new damage calculation is going to be implemented.
I don't think any skill change will be down untill the next expansion, bjt if the skill still remains as useless as it is right now, I'd be glad to support you.

Edited by 5143121023173906760, 22 June 2016 - 12:30 AM.

I can't disagree with you at all !

I took the mage as an exemple, since it is my main class. But it's true that thieves have that rocket punch thingy they throw everytime.

Then I actually wonder why boomerang should be buffed atm. Since a new damage calculation is going to be implemented.
I don't think any skill change will be down untill the next expansion, bjt if the skill still remains as useless as it is right now, I'd be glad to support you.

 

 

Thanks, the original intention was to make this skill less of a "swaggy" skill and make it more of a skill that's included to make pvp feel like an arcade where you can combo (without repeating a skill) in many way shape and form.(Swagometer is deteremined by how often it is used and how effective it is. Ie the spammabilty of blizzard and the solid cc it provides gives it a low level of swag, however the energy beams/lazer have a high level of swag due to the latter) Certainly this skill in battlesquare and ew will lack, but in 1 on 1 pvps it's something to look at while you are taking a combo or dishing a combo. Personally I love when players use unorthodox combos because they're cool and unique because it's different than the regular few combos. It will still be unique even after a buff of whatever because it expands the combo system. Players use a certain combo for a specific reason, if they are skilled and know they can win, they can risk a funky combo that looks amazing to the beholder or the one getting whacked. They use a more solid combo if they are not confident or are extremely used to a specific style. Right now, in terms of dps, the boomerang fit in any combo will not shine any brighter than the default combo.

 

With the new damage system implemented, wasn't it to balance elements more or less? If so the end result will be the same tanky people even less damage, Why less damage? because players complain it does too much damage.

 

As for the rune system I am highly curious and will expect great things. I wasn't sure if they were going to actually the fundamental atk/def stuff. Are there any damage calculations that I do not know about?

 

If the rune systems do it all then I'd have to hold back on these pvp suggestions till then.

Edited by Agitodesu, 22 June 2016 - 12:45 AM.

Its not all about dps, Agi. You should know that. Also a higher damage wont change much as long you guys arent able to use it in a combo. I mean the thread is mostly about your statement that devildart is useless because you cant combo with it since player are able to recover too fast. Well, sadly i can combo with it without giving the opponent a chance to counter attack.

So the thread is now all about the dmg. As numberman already mentioned we should wait for the new dmg/ele whatever calculation.

Surely there are ways to include them in, but in reality I have maybe seen 5 savages who used this skill and around 10+ people as ninjas regularly. That's approximately 7+ years worth of pvp.

The only reason why more ninjas use the darts is for the % hp reduction as the passive. Savages do not have it so that's why ninjas use this skill more than they do.

 

How many times in % did you not read anything I said? 100%

 

I can put those comboes in, I'm not dumb. Your like making up your own inertial frame to make your point valid. Yes if any skill hits in a combo it is a skill and doesn't need to be worked on if that's where your getting at.

 

 

and especially when I pvp others and the few who do throw these out eventually lose or regret it a moment after saying "lol" or "whoops"

  ^ that's me, sometimes though but not always :c

 

I used to be Pvp for awhile as ninja class, though I stopped after 1 or 2 weeks approximately, never attempted to use the Devil dart ever (regretted it after attempted to several times). Back then I'd rather shoot a rocket punch or violent blow than devilstorm dart due to its "casting time" and damage, plus whenever I use it it seems to be a free chance for the enemy to attack. I don't really care about the damage, but if it has faster cast time I would use it within my combo more often. Yea it's nice to use as catch skill long range, I tried again today and realize it isn't so bad (I thought this skill went extinct in pvp combos). It's a nice alternative catch in waiting for cd of RP and VB, (only 1/7 damages done by Dagger but worth the same knockdown and semi-long range). Bleh > Dart > Dagger > Relaunch > Aerial > whatever, though not very effective when the opponent roll fast :c *cough* I expect 100% for this boom and dart to be changed NOT anytime soon *cough* 

I don't really care much about the damage but having it buffed with a faster animation would be better.

 

 

 

 

On the dmg/atk calc thing, there's gonna be an element rework yes, but Popcorn also said on one livestream that atk and defense would have a one to one calculations. Now for that to work there's gonna have to be some changes to items or enchanting or who knows what else, so it's a bit hard to say how much dmg anything will do. But I think it's safe to say that these skills wont magically be better off from that then daggers for example.

 

In my opinion all skills should be useful and excel at something, even if that's a small thing. There's lots of little niches to fill there. I think Devilstorm dart has its own niche with that hp reduction. If you are able to land one at the start of a fight it'll do a lot of dmg. So I think that skill is fine when it comes to dmg, maybe the animation could be slightly faster, that I'd agree with.

 

Not every skill needs to be competitive in raw dmg, and in some cases you also have to think about how the skill looks and feels when thinking about this in my opinion. For a 1 hit skill to deal a lot of dmg I believe it should really feel powerful, like some of the overlord skills. These 2 skills don't really have that effect. So rather than boost sonic boom to be a dmg skill maybe it could too have some niche to fill, a debuff effect for example. Or maybe change it to actually be a boomerang so it comes back and hits the enemy again, the first could cause a flinch and the second knock down (if there wasn't a new flinch), and then give it more dmg. That'd be an interesting skill I think.

On the dmg/atk calc thing, there's gonna be an element rework yes, but Popcorn also said on one livestream that atk and defense would have a one to one calculations. Now for that to work there's gonna have to be some changes to items or enchanting or who knows what else, so it's a bit hard to say how much dmg anything will do. But I think it's safe to say that these skills wont magically be better off from that then daggers for example.

 

In my opinion all skills should be useful and excel at something, even if that's a small thing. There's lots of little niches to fill there. I think Devilstorm dart has its own niche with that hp reduction. If you are able to land one at the start of a fight it'll do a lot of dmg. So I think that skill is fine when it comes to dmg, maybe the animation could be slightly faster, that I'd agree with.

 

Not every skill needs to be competitive in raw dmg, and in some cases you also have to think about how the skill looks and feels when thinking about this in my opinion. For a 1 hit skill to deal a lot of dmg I believe it should really feel powerful, like some of the overlord skills. These 2 skills don't really have that effect. So rather than boost sonic boom to be a dmg skill maybe it could too have some niche to fill, a debuff effect for example. Or maybe change it to actually be a boomerang so it comes back and hits the enemy again, the first could cause a flinch and the second knock down (if there wasn't a new flinch), and then give it more dmg. That'd be an interesting skill I think.

 

Assuming you did waste more sp from a massive skill tree on a passive to get an x% of hp reduction. However it only works once, but the hp if I remember correctly works like this 100,000hp->get hit by level 5 passive dart-> You have 99720/85000 hp. Or something like that It is possible to have more hp than your current max hp, so you hitting that 15% max hp does nothing. Even if it does something, it is a 1 time use on the same character.

 

You say the only niche is the dart from ninjas because of a bleed that unfortunately requires up to 50 sp, however what do you think about savages, they don't have a bleed, have less damage both base wise and % wise.

I think it does reduce the hp while reducing the hp max, so when u get max hp back you are missing that 15%. Should anyway. Assuming it works correctly 15% on one hit is pretty op, gotta just be able to land it which a faster animation could help with. I could see people spend sp on that. 

 

EDIT: And you can have 9% of that only for 10 sp!

 

 

"Not every skill needs to be competitive in raw dmg, and in some cases you also have to think about how the skill looks and feels when thinking about this in my opinion. For a 1 hit skill to deal a lot of dmg I believe it should really feel powerful, like some of the overlord skills. These 2 skills don't really have that effect. So rather than boost sonic boom to be a dmg skill maybe it could too have some niche to fill, a debuff effect for example. Or maybe change it to actually be a boomerang so it comes back and hits the enemy again, the first could cause a flinch and the second knock down (if there wasn't a new flinch), and then give it more dmg. That'd be an interesting skill I think."

 

This part was for the savage one. Hard to come up with an example of a nice fitting effect for it really, maybe some defense lowering or something, I think that could be useful depending on how element/atk/def get changed. If you get hit over the head with a boomerang I think that could make you a bit fuzzy, make your reactions worse and such. So aesthetically that could make sense.

 

 

 

Edited by Precrush, 22 June 2016 - 02:03 AM.

Not going to argue with you at all since, your'e the type of person who probably think hammer crush is a great catching tool and is baffled why no one does this, but note, boomerang is 3rd class skill and so is the dart. Fortress is a 1st class skill, double shot is a 1st class skill. All 1st class skills don't make it to the main combos list, only a few actually do and I personally don't think 1st class skills should be stronger than the 2nd/3rd/4th class skills. That would be counter intuitive.

 

Is swaggyness meter scaled from how useless the skill is? Because you just shot your own foot. Obviously overused skills are the reliable ones thus not swaggy. I don't see anyone say holy moly that shootdown catch was sick! No one ever does that! /s Compared to a random boomerang into an rp prediction.

 

Hmmm.... I actually think you are arguing with him xd lol.

 

Anyways, making threats sporadically with the hope that management do something about it, wont work xd. Try here https://forums.warpp...and-discussion/

 

Otherwise, you will see what's been happening all over this forum, clueless gamers trying to make their points valid and not having a clue on what they are talking about. Btw your points seems fair, just try on the threat above, I will do one soon with all of the weak points and strength and what should be in place to make PVP a more fertile solution. As it is now, well is unfair, and I have place numerous cases forward, but is not like anyone who can do something about it will answer lol. Tired of talking about PVP_BSQ_EW without any feedback from management lol. Is a forum sooooo...... don't expect much from it. If you use the mention link above, your chances are higher that they will read that one of theses days xd.
 

Hmmm.... I actually think you are arguing with him xd lol.

 

Anyways, making threats sporadically with the hope that management do something about it, wont work xd. Try here https://forums.warpp...and-discussion/

 

Otherwise, you will see what's been happening all over this forum, clueless gamers trying to make their points valid and not having a clue on what they are talking about. Btw your points seems fair, just try on the threat above, I will do one soon with all of the weak points and strength and what should be in place to make PVP a more fertile solution. As it is now, well is unfair, and I have place numerous cases forward, but is not like anyone who can do something about it will answer lol. Tired of talking about PVP_BSQ_EW without any feedback from management lol. Is a forum sooooo...... don't expect much from it. If you use the mention link above, your chances are higher that they will read that one of theses days xd.
 

 

In the end I probably did argue, since no matter what he says, responding would be a bad idea. He didn't bother reading anything I said, since everything he mentioned was clearly answered in previous post prior to him even posting his first comment.

 

This really isn't a threat to fix it, paraphrasing, All I said was that this skill is not very useful in terms of damage or the flexibility of including this skill into a combo isn't high. it's just a suggestion.

 

I'm not ranting, but just giving a thought on these 2 particular skills, I find them lacking when I play as those classes, and especially when I pvp others

This really isn't a threat to fix it, paraphrasing, All I said was that this skill is not very useful in terms of damage or the flexibility of including this skill into a combo isn't high. it's just a suggestion.

 

Devil Dart gives a knock-down, how the hell isnt it usefull? Like what do you want more? Ninja is already one of the best classes to pvp with and a faster animation will only result in one more safe catching skill. Its not like ninja already got tons of those.. 

 

And as mentioned above you can put devil dart in nearly every combo. But no, lets change a skill because some unexperienced ninja dont know how to deal with it.

 

Some skills are harder to use and to bind in a combo, with other skills it works more easy. 

 

Wheres the fun if you make out of every skill a really easy and safe one to use? I dont get it.

 

If you think Ninja needs that buff go ahead, its my main class anyways.

I was just one time not selfish and thought about the poor other classes and my opponents and thats what i get from it ..

I cri everitiem

Considering that I take 0 damage from players with 100-10000+ elemental attack, and I take roughly +-200 damage from these "op" darts more or less 20 damage with aas and the list goes on, I think damage to health ratio is really dumb. Yes I do ungear myself to balance, but fully geared it's nearly pathetic.

Turpi, I think that you are missing the whole point of this thread because we are talking about the effectivness of a skill against stacked players.

Poison dart removes less Max HP than others' skills such as myrmidon's death bound, and is even glitchy.
Also, damage and cooldown are not balanced enough to do satisfying damages.

But this is something you can't understand. Because you never did some geared PvP here, so all the things you're stating are focused on low gear or low level PvP, which is something different than the actual PvP people experience.

Edited by 5143121023173906760, 22 June 2016 - 04:26 PM.

These 2 skills are very lacklustre. They take a fair amount of time to cast which leaves u vulnerable in addition to dealing literally no damage. Because of this people would much rather include an x atk ( or 9001 if u're a summoner or priest ) in their combos. It's just more efficient and effective than using such a high risk, low reward skill. No one is saying it's not possible to use these skills in a combo turpi, there's just no point. 

That feeling when someone actually reads and points it out.

 

I have spent more time playing under geared to mediocrely geared longer than I have fully geared. I know what both sides feel. If you were to completely isolate this skill as a whole then yes it seems op when buffed in lower geared pvp. HOWEVER, please do think that this skill even when buffed is outclassed by headspin/final decision/etc and for ninjas Mist/Sky pen/Ambush/Violent blow These are all better catching tools while at the same time do more damage than this.

 

I'm not assuming that players will only use headspin and whatever to catch, but the other skills are definitely better than these skills (Boomerang/Dart) in lower and higher geared game play.

 

In gearless pvp, you can practically 1 shot someone with a dagger. And that's close to spammable. Also you can one shot someone with a final decision and maybe any other skill that can easily chain off that, if that's too hard head spin is always a good option.