Spear Champ Stun [Daze]

I'll keep this short and to the point.

Only Class in the game without any form* of a Stun, Sleep, Mute or Daze.

My proposed solution.

'Javelin Toss'

Requires: 'Piercing Stab' (5)

At Skill Lvl 5: 135% + 55 [same as weapon toss, the axe champs ranged throw ability]

Applies: Daze [It's like a sleep, xBow Scouts have one for PvP. Doesn't remove on DoT's, but removes on any other damage, just like sleep]

Duration 5 seconds.

Success: 65%

Distance: 25m [same as weapon toss, the axe champ ranged throw ability]

Cost: 35mp

Cooldown: 15 seconds

Simple, effective for a first tree skill, solves the problem, thematically fits a spear fighter, adds a unique element to them.

Can we get this done please. 

Edited by Feuer, 26 August 2017 - 05:48 AM.

Hell to the no.

Most bogus idea I've heard you remark on the forums yet, keep em coming.

As if they need a stun with the amount of damage reduction, health pool, and range they already have. Runed spear champs can tank ranged casters except for mages easily, and kite them forcing them to retreat in wars\honor games. I don't see the point for pvm either. 5 Seconds of a stun? That's ranged with 25m? ?...???

Swords have a mute, don't give them a stun too, they're already one of the most damage burst heavy classes in the game due to how crappy skill animation is .. I mean abused. 

Phish, Swords have Mutes, which in* a Skill Heavy Meta like DoT's and Casting is an extremely potent skill, it even forces Mages down as they can't recast their Barrier. Spears don't have anything like that. Sure, they can hit from a great distance [also hitting more targets reducing the damage each individual takes as it's spread out and distributed more evenly], So if you want to play a balanced build of Longi + some close AoE's for pin-point pressure, you lack the utility to prevent those things. 

So aside from them not having anything to truly support their single target tree, even a light daze [aka sleep / gap closer since they don't have AoE radius with a proper pressure build] it comes at a great loss.

With an axe, you can throw your stun from a distance, and quickly at that, to stall a fleeing opponent, interrupt a mechanic like ranged Mutes, etc, or help off-set incoming damage after being Snapped.

With an sword, you can ranged mute, for entire durations of cold snap, interrupt or even prevent all together mechanics like ressing or boss mechanics like Shamans 1hit wonder. It's an immense utility beyond gap closing as well, as it prevents all skill casting, meaning DoT's now have nothing until the duration is over.

Spears, well, what, they're gonna hit you [and about 6 other people depending on the situation] but the more they hit other people, the less damage they deal when you hit you. They can't interrupt a cast, nor can they prevent it. They can't even prevent things like Mammy's Burn [lack of a mute] or the mini-bosses in Caves when they announce an incoming stun [unless they aggro swap with someone else, which isn't always an option]. 

Point is, with so many mechanics in the game that are hyper punishing if not countered / avoided or prevented, and with how many situations arise where a hard CC is mandatory to off-set the situation, it's ridiculous that any class not have even an RNG method. 

As for Snuwfers comment, I'm just going to ignore you because you don't know a damn thing about PvP, game functions, PvM, balance, or anything remotely related to ROSE. You're a waste of my screen space, and I'm not going to acknowledge your incessant trolling with gifs, or your vendetta because I didn't hold your hand when you screamed 'animation hacks' on repeat. Seriously, stop wasting my time, grow up, and learn to contribute. And stop trying to only present information to support your claims, that's called confirmation bias. An example would be you always leaving out the fact that the larger the AoE radius ['range'... as you frequently call it incorrectly] the more enemy's they hit, and the less damage each individual receives. People who stack range are doing it for easy DG clears, or to troll people who panic when they're hit by this 'mythical AoE range that 1 shots me derp'. 

Edit: Corrected spelling error marked with an asterisk. 

Edited by Feuer, 24 August 2017 - 04:50 PM.

You spent 2 months trying to say it's impossible to stack skills, then I figure out almost every single way in the game to do it and you've said it's normal. You realize that a Spear Champ can skill stack harder than a sword champ because of the range spears have? You don't hardly ever play PvP so probably not. You're complaining that their damage gets nerfed when there's a lot of people? IT SHOULD BE MORE LOL! 4 - 5K AOE spins because a Spear Champion is able to use Luminous which almost every single one is, or they're doing exalted +20 with 40 cha 40 ap sub stats. Learn your game before you spew your nonsense on the forums. You even made some bogus video to post and tried contradicting yourself to being correct and it was insanely half tasked.

I'm far more well equipped to be throwing out "balance suggestions" then you will ever be, and absolutely no I am not going to "grow up" and contribute until you've taken your own advice. AoE Radius, AoE Range, nobody cares guy, you knew exactly what I was talking about, you snickering buffoon you! I think you should probably actually play the game, go gear a spear champion, and start playing the damn game so you will finally see what I see, and for the love of god, STOP GIVING SUGGESTIONS \ PROPOSALS until you've actually gone through and thought it out. The Character Mastery system I like, this, this is garbage and looks like a hack job attempt of buffing something for their own benefit.

There is in no way possible right now, that spear champions in ROSE online needing a hard CC when they've got the debuff %'s and everything else. You need to catch up to somebody because they're getting away? Just debuff shout that 25m "RADIUS" ?? and laugh as you endlessly spin away and chunk.

You spent 2 months trying to say it's impossible to stack skills, then I figure out almost every single way in the game to do it and you've said it's normal.

stop crying, you're literally the only person I've seen cry about this on a daily basis

 

You realize that a Spear Champ can skill stack harder than a sword champ because of the range spears have?

nope.

 

You don't hardly ever play PvP so probably not. You're complaining that their damage gets nerfed when there's a lot of people? IT SHOULD BE MORE LOL! 4 - 5K AOE spins because a Spear Champion is able to use Luminous which almost every single one is, or they're doing exalted +20 with 40 cha 40 ap sub stats.

nope. spears are not doing this much damage with multiple targets. double nope.

 

Learn your game before you spew your nonsense on the forums. You even made some bogus video to post and tried contradicting yourself to being correct and it was insanely half tasked.

i mean he knows the game, ill admit he doesn't play enough pvp to comment too much, but still. 

 

I'm far more well equipped to be throwing out "balance suggestions" then you will ever be,

HAHA! nice one.

anyways to feuer's post, its not a stun, its a daze (same as a sleep), meaning even if you did aoe, the person would just run away or continue to hit you. If its a single target cc, i dont really see the issue but at the same time, a sleep really doesnt fit spear imo...if anything it would just give a way for a spear to escape from a bad situation (getting hit from a scout or raider)

Edited by watermelonnn, 25 August 2017 - 11:00 AM.

anyways to feuer's post, its not a stun, its a daze (same as a sleep), meaning even if you did aoe, the person would just run away or continue to hit you. If its a single target cc, i dont really see the issue but at the same time, a sleep really doesnt fit spear imo...if anything it would just give a way for a spear to escape from a bad situation (getting hit from a scout or raider)

Constructive, thank you! lol

Anyways yeah i second this opinion. So i guess making it a 1-2s stun and single attack should be alright

Just adding my 3 cents (cuz 2 is too common :v)

Well it's not a stun, it's a daze like stated above. xBow Scouts already have one, and it's from a physical impact skill [Their shield bash]. 

Also as stated above, it's a 'sleep' with a different label, meaning if you used it, and just aoe'd once, they'll be able to run, or go back to doing whatever they were doing. 

It's literally meant as an interrupt and gap closer. Damage wise, it's not very strong, and I did that intentionally. And since it's not a stun, it's actually less effective than a 1-2 sec stun. 

IE, it doesn't actually benefit AoE builds, specially with AoE runes as the cast range is significantly shorter than the AoE Range... And even if it did, you daze one person, go to AoE someone else, the person you just dazed is now awake again.... as you can see, not a very effective strategy for AoE'rs, which I did intentionally, again, as it's supposed to help 1v1 builds, not AoE builds. 

Edit: I labeled the topic as 'Champion Stun' to draw attention, because 99% of people, don't even know that a 'daze' is a status, especially because it looks like a stun form the effect. 

Edited by Feuer, 25 August 2017 - 12:20 PM.

They literally do not need another gap closer when they've already got a 40% debuff for mspd.

Just no, it's a terrible idea and doesn't need to be in game what so ever.

I'm only making this response to address a complete miss-representation of facts.

1: Move-speed down [be it shout or ice sweep] is only valid as a gap closer with AoE radius Passives and Runes.

2: If you do not have those Passives and Runes [which this thread is making the assumption you don't] you do not have a gap closer.

3: The thread and subsequent skill is proposed in a manner and method, that doesn't have synergy with AoE Radius builds, to address the above stated facts.

... it has enough range without the runes what in the?

you can't be serious? Obviously they're going to have the ranged passives if you're playing a spear champ? what?

spear champs do not need a "gap" closer, they have a "gap" closer already to begin with.

and yes, spear champs can skill stack harder than a sword champion, you just need to learn how to bug abuse your way to victory, and learn how broken skill range works, with the correct set up you can cast multiple attacks while running up to an enemy as you're spinning AOEs away..

... it has enough range without the runes what in the?

you can't be serious? Obviously they're going to have the ranged passives if you're playing a spear champ? what?

You've clearly never seen a decent dueling Champ. 
 

spear champs do not need a "gap" closer, they have a "gap" closer already to begin with.

 

Wrong.

 

and yes, spear champs can skill stack harder than a sword champion, you just need to learn how to bug abuse your way to victory, and learn how broken skill range works, with the correct set up you can cast multiple attacks while running up to an enemy as you're spinning AOEs away..

Prove it. Get on your spear Champ and show us all-mighty Snuwfer.

spear champs do not need a "gap" closer, they have a "gap" closer already to begin with.

if the spears are using the sets you listed before (lumi and exalted), they are slow af without dex buffs...even if they did manage to slow a raider or scout, they still wouldn't be able to effectively catch them, just sayin.

 

+ I dont see this skill as a gap closer but rather a way to survive longer and play strategically. For example, if you are in a group battle and need to sleep a mage hiding behind a wall with its long range, or even just neutralize a scout (both of which can stand out of a maxed runed champs aoe range)

 

 

and yes, spear champs can skill stack harder than a sword champion, you just need to learn how to bug abuse your way to victory, and learn how broken skill range works, with the correct set up you can cast multiple attacks while running up to an enemy as you're spinning AOEs away..

 

always complaining and crying about this yet you always know sooo much and do it yourself

regardless... im open to new ideas to break the meta of spears just being spin bots. continue. 

Edited by watermelonnn, 25 August 2017 - 05:00 PM.

I've done it myself in the past because nobody is doing anything about the broken game, and there's obviously no consequences to skill bugging.

and I'm done making videos for people to get a "how-to" grasp of bug abusing. Never mattered when I did it to begin with anyway, did it Feuer?

I've pvped frequently against Henry, ajax, emi, and others. I don't win because of the amount of damage reduction they have from defense passives\total defense, health pool, range, mutes, debuffs.. Champions are a heavy fight I tell you what! Hell even Raiders, the best 1vs1 PVPing class in the game gets a 50-50 chance against a runed champion regardless of it being axe, spear, or champion. They need nerfs, not buffs and extra "aids" in combat.

I believe spears have about 35-40m AOE radius when runed.. so please, lets not.

I can already see the CC being abused to abide time in the middle of pvp's for skill or consumable CD like raiders can already do.

When I start seeing you actively play the game Feuer, by that I mean actually getting runes to level 100 on any class, actively PVPing in Draconis Peaks, etc for your daily quest rewards, and so forth .. give me a break already. Don't think you get any sort of position to tell me otherwise of what my opinion is to yours.

This, to me is ridiculous, and it's probably going to stay that way unless you think of some magical way to give one of the most heavy de-buffing classes in the game more "gap closing" than it already contains.

I believe spears have about 35-40m AOE radius when runed.. so please, lets not.

 

34m full runed on aoes from champ window. Only thing that is over 40m is eye and sacri

So I decided to compile a little bit of Data for adequately and visually present the Maximum Reach potentials of the following four Classes in ROSE.

• Spear Champion
• Bow Scout
• Mage
• Cannon Bourge

The following have all been calculated into these equations.

• Paradigm Runes. 

The following Runes were used in these calculations.

Face Rune: [Puncture/Transfixion Force of Reach Blasting]: AoE Range 6m & Skill Range 3m

Body Rune: [Mind Reach of Herald]: Skill range 3m

Ring Rune: [Precise Force of Blasting]: AoE Range 6m

Ear Rune: [Aegis Force of Blasting]: AoE Range 6m

• Passives.

If a class had available Passives, they were factored into the equation, as this is about Maximums, not what you feel is worth while.

Dealers: 5m in AoE Range Passive

Mages: 10m Cast sRange Passives + 3m Unique sRange Passive.

Spears: 8m in AoE Range Passives

Scouts: 12m Weapon Range in Passives.

Key notes:

The first Graph illustrates Maximum Reach values based on the notion that AoE Range is more accurately defined as AoE Diameter. The distance from one edge of the circle to the opposite edge. Thus, Maximum Reach is calculated in Range Casted AoEs as
Skill Range [sRange] + ( AoE Range / 2)

Now, I was anticipating a 'But Feuer, you're stupid, AoE Range doesn't work like that, it's not divided at all stupid.'
But don't you worry cupcake, I've prepared a second graph.

This graph is based on the premise that AoE Range is more accurately defined as AoE Radius. Meaning The point from which the AoE is casted is by example given 6m of lateral distance, and 12m lateral diameter distance. 

As you can see by both graphs above, regardless of how AoE Range functions, Spears are not the Range Monsters everyone is making them out to be. In fact, I have half the mind to ask for Scouts to be looked at, as when compared to Bourgs and Mages, they dominate the Range game. Even if you took out the PaS spread influencing their maximum distance, they still have more sRange than a Spear Champion with Full runes.

#justsaying

Edit: Be aware, both images are using the same pixel ratio of 5pixels = 1m. Both are exactly the same ratio, the difference in size is 100% accurate to scale between the two. 

Edited by Feuer, 26 August 2017 - 05:36 AM.

Here's some numbers to back up what feuer said too. Take note of my CHARM its FULL CHARM and this build is literally meant for running SOD ONLY (previously when it used to be solid numbers based on charm instead of percentage based on charm)

Shouting AOE slow and range (with just passive range skills)

Ice Spin (again full charm, and take note the range)

so m8, don't complain, I'm pretty sure no idiot in the entire game would build a full charm spear champion and bring it into pvp, so there's a very high change that this guy won't even get this much slow

Edited by KatsuraKujo, 26 August 2017 - 06:18 AM.

pvp spear champs generally have 400-500 cha in battle gear

None of what any of you provided justice to giving the best debuffing class in the game more hard CC.

No thanks, it's a terrible idea and you can't and will not justify it being brought into the game, there's absolutely no point for it.

<snip>

What is the point in nerfing one of the weakest classes in the game right now that's next to bourgeois and Artisans? They have 1 single AOE dot and it's too much? Why don't you get off the high horse and get the ROSE team to fix how Damage over Time skills work so that AOE dot is mitigated, instead of taking the easy route you've been reluctantly clinging to for whatever reason. Spear champions are the ultimate range monster in ROSE right now, next to mages. They can deter any kind of PvP, or PvM game play so that other classes have to re-adjust their entire play style, just by the fact they have 34M AoE Range, close to 50% debuffs, and so forth. It's a terrible idea and please, when you come up with a legit well thought out, presented example of why you think it should be inside ROSE Online, and not a hack-job attempt. I'll be all ears and happy to read it.

You realize there's only a few players playing scout still and that's because they've always played it? Others have moved onto raiders, champions, FS, mage, etc.

Stop giving me fixed biased photos please, @KatsuraKujo you gave me a photo of your champion being full cha? But you're 80 on CHA to spend any further, which is about 390 base charm, and you're only obtaining 660 charm, please stop fixing images\therories to your own agenda to push unbalanced things into the game, that is the worst example you could of presented to represent charm being used on a Spear Champion. Completely fixed photo.

You should probably investigate how critical damage runes from PvP and PvM can be as well, but you guys really do NOT play the game to know any better as you're showing me.

Feu Feu, your diagram theory makes absolutely no sense.

Edited by Dragonlark, 27 August 2017 - 08:17 AM.

Haha... you don't get it do you. That's what all this is about, you don't understand, and you don't want to admit to it. Wow.... I'm so sorry, I thought you were just being a jerk, but seriously, it's just that you don't understand it. Ok, no sweat dude. IT's ok if you don't get it, xD I'm not gonna make fun of you. 

You threw up a diagram out of disgust to justify putting unbalanced to an already unbalanced game, going off of a theory about scouts and bourgs having more of an advantage because they're able to cast their AOEs from their perspective initial skill range? You think that justified it?....

Champions get 10K+ defense, good damage % reduction, and you're going to argue that stand point for justification? <snip>

Scouts and Bourgs get that range because of how squishy they are, you give that spear champ a ranged stun, what is the point in even having the range on the bourg or scout? You'll run up to them and drop them in 3-6 hits. The scout will cloak, run away, heal up, rinse and repeat, but a champions health pool... health regen, defense, is going to mitigate the scouts offense, and force the scout into playing a "kiting" game after every single stun is achieved that the champion does, eventually the scout is going to be outclassed\outlasted and die, simply because it can not run away once de-cloaked and debuffed by almost half of its movement speed.

<snip>

Hey guys, just a quick warning: All feedback and suggestions are welcome, and we love to have discussions regarding these suggestions, but please make sure you are offering feedback for or against a suggestion, that you are focusing on the suggestion itself and not attacking one another. It looks like this topic is becoming rather off topic in many places now, due to this rule being broken. I don't want to remove feedback, but if posts of this kind continue I will have to start removing posts of this kind and lock the thread from further comment. At this time I will only be going through and removing blatant insults and completely off topic posts. If you have any concerns or questions about these edits please feel free to send me a PM. 

I smelt wars seeing DragonLark's comment in a thread of this kind.

Not disappointed.