The great AFK debate (ft. KSing & Auto-Casting)

Hi all -
 
I would like to start an open discussion about the prevalence of AFK builds; their implications on the game, and any rights, privileges, and protections afforded to them under the user agreement, common rules, and ideals people believe are rules.
 
As a starting point, I would like to represent the main arguments in summary.
 
Unrestricted Auto-Cast / AFK / Auto-Greed:

Limited Auto-Cast / AFK / Auto-Greed: Restricted Auto-Cast / AFK / Auto-Greed:

 

 

Though there are more subtleties to each position, I think that encapsulates them enough for now. Currently the CM stated position is as follows:

 
It is worth mentioning that KSing or Kill-Stealing is NOT mentioned in the game's User Agreement, nor are there any Knowledge Base articles regarding Kill-Stealing in the support section of the WP site. In fact, the only place I find mention is:
 
Though it does not clearly articulate what these actions are, the presumed blanket punishment for these offenses is an account suspension. It is also worth mentioning that these rules are posted on the forums, which the majority of players do not check. It is especially likely they have not read through the whole thread. These rules are mostly common-law if anything.

That said, I have some experience with reflect, auto-cast, and auto-greed. I would like to share some anecdotes.

 
For my 2 cents, I think Kill-Stealing is only an ill-mannered activity if there is a consistent pattern of targeted harassment. Someone is actively following you around, camping you, or seeking you specifically to steal from. Accidental flywings or the occasional snipe is not severe enough to warrant a suspension. Needless to say - its my take on it.
 
So I am curious to see where others land on this issue in light of recent events. Which approach do you take when encountering someone who is AFK leveling? Does an AFK leveler affect your enjoyment of the game regardless of whether or not they cause mobs to disappear? Are there any distinctions you make to the above arguments? Which do you align with most? Feel free to answer any or all of these questions, plus whatever additional input you have.

before all those TL;DR, i indeed read everything.

Some points i agree, others must be discussed.

 

"The ability to collect loot while fully AFK is the same result as botting." Yes, its the same result but is not the same method, there is a big difference between booting and AFK, so I wont compare one thing to other.

 

"Idle levelers are not actively playing the game, therefore they are entitled to no protection." TBH I agree with this, morally agree, but game mechanics and in-game rules points as long as a player is killing, no matter if he is or not in front of PC, its consider KS if you go and kill. ofc you mention it has no protection of basic rules, indeed thats a point of view, from the AFK level guy, it must have, the way he level do not have for what lose rights over the mob. There are some scenarios, like Camp says, if he is hoarding mobs and affect somehow the respawn, but if he is efficient killing, if he get back to Pc and watch his char being KSed, he can raise a ticket with evidence. thats where your point "Monitoring the screen qualifies as playing the game." enters.then, there is a conflict between two sentences.

 

There is a lot to talk about this, i will stay tunned here

 

btw, some AFK players argue if someone go to his spot and kill the mobs around, there is a lot of players who thinks they can OWN a spot. WRONG!

 

As long as you kill the mob before other player engange with it, you are not KSing, you are the active playing and the other its just... staying there. He has rights ofc, if he engange batle with a mob, but there is no such thing as "this spot is of my property"

Edited by S207, 10 July 2019 - 11:54 AM.

There is no debate needed really. Dont have to play dumb either. If the dude is stationary, and holding more than 3 monsters or so ... kill the monsters at sight. Its not like the AFK dude loses anything either. Real talks.

What can you argue about? It's poor design by WP and not thinking about what item combinations do and understanding their own game. And since they don't want to change it (obviously seen with the vast majority of complaint on forum and nothing being done), it is legal. 

 

With that said just KS him if the guy is AFK, not like KSing actual players even matter cause no one gets banned for it anymore. Why wouldn't you just KS an AFKer? 

My opinion

I KS every "AFK autocast levelers" especially in TI , NCT

They're no reply / response / notice
Standing at same spot 24/7
So they don't know when I KS them right?

I count that they're just a free tank , free for all mobs for me... thanks for hoarding large group of monster (more than 5)

* unless they holding only 1-2 monsters or fast killing time I'll leave them alone

I'll kill them for faster BB / TI count (especially BMX3 on)  or at least mobs will spawn at other spots


Unless some of them active on screen,keyboard PM me or open chat room to warn me not to KS their mobs or get reported next time

I'll count them as active player not to KS him/her again

count as they're not allowed KS their mobs

I'll remember his/her name class and location so I'll stop KS only him/her
But still KS other AFK levelers who're not reply me



I KS only "AFK autocast levelers"
Not an "Active autocaster build*"


* Ex. Monk class with reflect+autocast
walking around + potting with Mental Strength and let reflect,autocast kill the mobs

Autocast Sorc / battle AB / Shadow chaser / Super Novice leveling manually by normal attack + reflect to proc autocast


I'm not KS active player unless it's an accident or get KSed a lot from him/her first so I want to revenge  

I tried avoid KS active players much as possible

Edited by NekoCaptainNoob, 11 July 2019 - 04:57 AM.

just an extra note on the "earnings of auto-greed during afk-casting" - you will take YEARS/DECADES to make even a slight portion of the money invested in the gears for such "playstyle". Idk, some ppl think it's an "unfair way to make money", but you are actually making pretty close to nothing, specially compared to someone actively playing :T


say all spawns bugs are dealt with, the collateral damage of having a multitude of ppl doing this on the same map, is basically that you will feel the map more empty, as monsters are engaging in combat with players and not wandering around for too long, as a map would if a lot of players would level on the same map regularly as well (it just doesn't happen on iRO almost specifically because leveling is super fast and funneled in a few areas of quick go in and go out).

All that said, just try to be polite at first. When you first enter a map and see someone standing there, don't just automatically assume he/she is afk, maybe wing somewhere else, and if after some time/some passes by them you notice, yeah, they are not moving/acting at all, then just do whatever you want. Just don't be immediatelly a di.k to anyone you see on screen, cause that's been pretty bad recently.

If they are kind of well geared i don't mind leaving them alone, monsters wont take too much longer to die than they would against an active player, and they'll just respawn somewhere else.

Edited by Ashuckel, 10 July 2019 - 12:59 PM.

Btw you brought the mob hoarding issue too.

I think two or three weeks ago there was a player hoarding a huge amount mobs in the High TI with an 100 PD GX or Sorcerer. Not gonna expose their name, tho. They took a painfully slow time to kill all those mobs and until it was done, the amount of mobs in the rest of the map was severely reduced. AND in addition, it was causing a HUGE amount of lag to the other players.

 

Isn't that bannable somehow?

cant quote locked channel but really agree on this non-mod-cinna voice : 

 

is this how you play RO these days? By not playing?  

 

 

ps : pls enable manhole on player outside pvp again 

 

Edited by folkvangr, 10 July 2019 - 02:14 PM.

1.lack of monsters
2.less mobs resulting AFK players take ridiculous time to proc skills to kill
3.and i quote "go play nexon or any gacha games that have autoplay button"

as a super side note, leaving characters "afk leveling" is kind of s by product of not being able to offline vend :U because the exp gained is really really bad, and for the most part not worth leaving your computer on for just that, but since we have to keep it for selling stuff, might as well make some use of it.

Ban afk leveling REEEEEE

And this is what envy does. 

I couldn't express how dumb it was. Ridiculous leveling way.
I don't use any swear word here.

It's a problem of balance and spawn mechanics, not ethics. It only becomes an ethical issue because of KSing them. 

didn't this count as boting? .. like people complaning about bots all the time, but what tells you that the guy afk there for 3 days is not a bot?.. now next point.. people complains because (specially turn in maps) they got ks while they were afking.. and record to ''report''  why it should affect you then if you are afk? other people need counts and it was kinda hard for parties to get the counts because the respawn was messed and they started ksing the afk ones.. and yeah.. it was not afk for few mins.. a couple of hours.. it was for more than 1 day... if you are afk its fine but i dont find a point on get mad if someone kill the mob around you considering you are not there... 

i understand that some classes like ab/sura/chaser can be really hard to level up and they are getting a big help using autocaster gear, but i think its about be comprehensive with others too, mob is free for all, and being afk should be the same as you are not there..  unlike ppl who is leveling with autocast gear but they are there.. then ks should be not acceptable..   but that's different circumstance... 

and well now with the monster token thing many bots and afk people appear in towns like scaraba, juno, etc etc to farm the tokens, clearly found rk, AB Gx other jobs afk.. even some of them afk and using greed .... this is unfair.

 

my suggestion to fix this should be first fix the respawn, 2 if possible log out automatically the character that is inactive for ''x'' period of time to avoid this person be afk for so long, 3 if exist a way to make the mob focuse on 1 target (party,lurer/killer) and follow  and if ranger, rebel rk or whatever appears to ks, it misses so the party/lurer/killer don't lose the mob they got and avoid ks... only ooonly if this is possible..

Hi all -
 
I would like to start an open discussion about the prevalence of AFK builds; their implications on the game, and any rights, privileges, and protections afforded to them under the user agreement, common rules, and ideals people believe are rules.
 
As a starting point, I would like to represent the main arguments in summary.
 
Unrestricted Auto-Cast / AFK / Auto-Greed:

Spoiler

• Merely a clever use of game mechanics
• Those able to earn passive income from AFK methods should be able to do so. The market will adjust.
• Requires investment in specific (often expensive) gears, sold in the cash shop.
• Damaging monsters via reflect is the same as engaging a monster.
• Killing monsters slowly is not a punishable offense.
• Has been a feature of the game since before Renewal, current mob disappearance issues are just scapegoating AFK'ers unfairly.
• AFKing is harmless, Anti-AFK are envious of idle gameplay that produces results.
• Because being present is not easy for players to determine, they should always assume someone is watching.
• Monitoring the screen qualifies as playing the game.

Limited Auto-Cast / AFK / Auto-Greed:

Spoiler

• Reflect-based setups are allowable so long as the player is moving.
• Idle leveling is allowable because it is slow, competitive players will always level faster than idle.
• Killing mobs off of idle reflect builds is allowable, whereas killing mobs off of mobile / engaging builds is not.
• Examples of mobile reflect include, but not limited to; Hindsight, Auto-Shadow-Spell, walking in Mental Strength, Reflect Damage, Shield Reflect, etc.
• Auto-Greed is impractical in mobile setups, but comes from a clearly stated item description, therefor legal.
• Player activity is required to receive any kind of protection or claim over mobs.
• Kill speed is not a punishable offense. There are plenty of low-tier players with bad builds that don't "deserve" to be KS'd either.

Restricted Auto-Cast / AFK / Auto-Greed:

Spoiler

• Idle levelers are not actively playing the game, therefore they are entitled to no protection.
• Auto-Cast induces tremendous lag, thus inhibiting others ability to share a map. Resulting in disconnections in some cases.
• Though auto-cast uses game mechanics, it is an exploit that it works with reflect gear and upon receiving damage.
• Though auto-cast uses game mechanics, it is an unintended result of ill-conceived implementations throughout time. Worsening its impact.
• The ability to collect loot while fully AFK is the same result as botting.
• Slowly killing while idle constitutes mob hoarding, which is widely considered ill-mannered behavior.
• An example of mob hoarding would be gathering monsters with 100 perfect dodge and holding them to prevent respawn, or exploiting spawn mechanics. See Mi Gao farming.
• Reflect is an inherent feature of the game, but it causes grief to players in too many cases. Even so far as to be a health-risk for epilepsy.
• Players who reflect should not be banned, items should be re-evaluated, players who reflect have less privileges than other active leveling methods.

 

 

Though there are more subtleties to each position, I think that encapsulates them enough for now. Currently the CM stated position is as follows:

Spoiler

 
It is worth mentioning that KSing or Kill-Stealing is NOT mentioned in the game's User Agreement, nor are there any Knowledge Base articles regarding Kill-Stealing in the support section of the WP site. In fact, the only place I find mention is:

Spoiler

 
Though it does not clearly articulate what these actions are, the presumed blanket punishment for these offenses is an account suspension. It is also worth mentioning that these rules are posted on the forums, which the majority of players do not check. It is especially likely they have not read through the whole thread. These rules are mostly common-law if anything.

That said, I have some experience with reflect, auto-cast, and auto-greed. I would like to share some anecdotes.

Spoiler

I first reflect leveled on my Royal Guard, with a Kaahi build, pre-nerf reflect damage, Dark Lords, Moonlight Dagger, and Kasa Mant. The goal was to soak up as much damage as could be recovered by kaahi and regen the SP off exponential mob size. I was able to generate replay files gigs in size in 30 minutes or less. That is how many damage calculations you can generate with this death by 1000 cuts style. I used to laugh at other players when they would DC from all the damage splashes and spell effects.
 
My second bout of reflecting I have posted multiple videos on, collecting monster tokens and other auto-drop items  with auto-greed for profit. While collecting my tokens I also was able to garner hundreds of millions in profits over the span of a couple days. Getting KS'd was not an issue because I had unlimited time and 0 costs on my side. Usually someone who will KS you will only be around for 30 minutes or so, when I was there for 24 hrs. I also enjoy unlimited free refine attempts through these afk tokens and the most recent event.

 
For my 2 cents, I think Kill-Stealing is only an ill-mannered activity if there is a consistent pattern of targeted harassment. Someone is actively following you around, camping you, or seeking you specifically to steal from. Accidental flywings or the occasional snipe is not severe enough to warrant a suspension. Needless to say - its my take on it.
 
So I am curious to see where others land on this issue in light of recent events. Which approach do you take when encountering someone who is AFK leveling? Does an AFK leveler affect your enjoyment of the game regardless of whether or not they cause mobs to disappear? Are there any distinctions you make to the above arguments? Which do you align with most? Feel free to answer any or all of these questions, plus whatever additional input you have.

 

Holy Moly I agree with everything you have to say.

 

I just feel like people should only AFK if they have a vend up some sort of "vend chat" / buying chat or anything of that nature because you are very limited on what you can do when doing those things....

Here's my 2 cents on the topic.... 

 

Short version: Situation simply is what it is, not likely to change ever. If they wanted to or we're able to resolve it, it would have been done by now.

 

Long version: .....

 

Like it or not AFK auto casters effect everyone when they are present on active leveling maps one way or another.

 

And like it or not, warp portal does not have free reign to make drastic changes to IRO.

 

Once upon a time, full autocast afk leveling would have been considered a true exploit and immediately would have been resolved.

 

The only clear solution that allows players to utilize auto cast gears and not drastically effect other players would be simply implementing a idle disconnect timer as many games often do. 

 

The problem is either warp portal doesn't want to make a stance one way or another, or they are not allowed to make a stance one way or another.

 

It would not be hard at all to have all maps that are not safe zones to have an idle timer, if a player doesn't move for 3 minutes, a 1 minute warning occurs, then a disconnect. The functions of a count down disconnect already exist for IRO... hint hint nudge nudge, anyone listening? prolly not...

 

Even if a idle timer was implemented, this would only encourage players to go the route of macros, and the rules are quite clear about 3rd party programs, they are not allowed in any way / shape / form. Even if it's a feature of your keyboard or mouse, it is a 3rd party program. Without re enacting game guard there is little point in even attacking the situation in this manner at any case.

 

The people who get affected the most by such a crushing (enacting of a idle timer and gamegaurd) would be mostly end game players who could quite literally go 0 to 175 in a weekend if they cared enough to do so.

 

So who is even benefiting from AFK auto casting? It's mainly end game players with enough wealth and little drive to grind anymore. Meanwhile the guy who just has a lunar and cd in mouth that's trying to auto cast active level sees no measurable effect.....

 

Ultimately if warp portal does anything beyond what they are already doing , such as ensuring features of items work properly and monsters spawn properly, they would be making a active choice to pick a side of who they want to help the most. And frankly they shouldn't and likely won't ever do such a blind action.... Though it has happened in the past on certain things from small crowds who scream the loudest......

 

It's simply a no win argument that just needs to stop being a argument in the first place.

 

Even if a idle timer was implemented, this would only encourage players to go the route of macros, and the rules are quite clear about 3rd party programs, they are not allowed in any way / shape / form. Even if it's a feature of your keyboard or mouse, it is a 3rd party program. Without re enacting game guard there is little point in even attacking the situation in this manner at any case.

 

 

So who is even benefiting from AFK auto casting? It's mainly end game players with enough wealth and little drive to grind anymore. Meanwhile the guy who just has a lunar and cd in mouth that's trying to auto cast active level sees no measurable effect.....

 

 

Case and point bro.  I afk because I can, and it gets stuff done when I lose drive to grind.  If your main playstyle is to be afk.... jokes on you man.

While it's definitely true that active levelling is more profitable which is obvious, the main advantage in AFK levelling is the ability to last for days without any actual input from the player side. 30mins-2hrs of dedicated farming will not trump 3-4 AFK alts that can be afk forever. I'm not just saying this but , after farming actively I got 200 tokens for a long time and someone I knew just left all his alts afk and autogreeded 2k + in day. While since I play actively can only afford a few hours.

But that isn't the issue. The drops and rewards are secondary. My main worry is , that considering all the heavy discussion on this topic and that severely directed hate of last week on A-_- we still saw 10+ of them on a map almost all the time. Imagine when it gains approval from WP side

1) The old afk guys will continue as they did.
2) The few who stopped because of the toxicity will also comeback and join
3) The people who decide "well it, I might as well do it then if they don't care"
4) The new set of people who will learn about the build and also buy them to join the group
5) bunch of farmers with alts farming TIs/maps for cards and oridecons etc. Cause before no one bothered to put effort and would rather farm something else. But now even a decently rich guy could simply leave 3 alts in 3 TIs/maps and continue to make money, why bother farming bio5 or instances of you can just afk.

Will probably lead us to a situation where you'll have 1 AFK guy every few cells. Usually when someone is done with a map they move to the next allowing people who start at that map freedom to level. Imagine a situation where even those who are done with levelling keep behind a character for farming.

And the people most affected by this is neither the already rich people or the farmers but rather the new players who are already struggling to get used to this toxic market and economy. Even their levelling will be hindered exponentially. Parties won't be moving around cause it's not worth it anymore.

Walking mental strength reflected have always existed while the occasional 'duck' may have ksed them most people always try to respect them. It's good to remember that KS is not unique to the afk guys. Few people have always been and will always be a 'duck'. It's the majority that matter.

Personally I am against people who AFK (or even those who only check their chars once few hours to actively rage at people). If AFK is allowed that just wait until I have 4 alts always right around you taking all your mobs. Legally/morally you can't say anymore. Or what if someone makes a bunch of alts with pneuma auto cast clips and stand around primary mob zones of maps, if it's there's a ranged mob in the map then isn't the grey zone where the mods can't even do anything? He just has to say he's trying to protect himself from range while he autocasts.But since things have already gone this far the least you can do is cater more to the active levelling group. I was glad that Juperos and Night became a thing for levelling parties about a year and half ago. I'm sad that they have already become a thing among the AFK groups. And finally it's always possible to disguise bots as auto casters. This should NEVER be allowed. If say a bit is programmed to greed only when a decently rare drops, as long as he equips a auto greed hat or hides his gears he can escape all suspicion. As say a card drops so rarely that active players won't notice even 2 instances to refer or compare to bother reporting the bot. And THIS HAS ALREADY HAPPENED. No reason to believe it won't in future.

tl dr;

There is a existent possibility that maps will be over crowded with AFK farmers in the future if it was not dealt with properly

You are AFKing
You are levelling
You are looting
You are hogging mobs
You are possibly botting (but we have no way to confirm)
You are disrupting other players and parties
And you still want people to respect your mobs and not KS you is asking for too much man  

 

AFK auto casting is not illegal, And I don't blame you for doing it cause the game allows and the gears allow. But claiming your right on the mobs if it is potentially affecting the gameplay of others is not good and shouldn't be encouraged.

 

^ Edit: Now that I'm less frustrated (due to maintainance) I'll try being more rational and less emotional Lmao. I help my new guildies level by partying with them and making new characters usually. Just got pissed when I saw the situation there

Quoting Cinnamon : Is this how you play RO? By not playing?

Edited by EmoMidget, 11 July 2019 - 03:55 AM.

And you still want people to respect you and your mobs?

Quoting Cinnamon : Is this how you play RO? By not playing?

 

Just curious, do you see an AFKer in here complaining about people clearing mobs on them?  Seems this thread is about being argumentative for no reason, with nobody even debating the other side.

Edited by sh4deinc, 10 July 2019 - 07:17 PM.

Just curious, do you see an AFKer in here complaining about people clearing mobs on them?  Seems this thread is about being argumentative for no reason, with nobody even debating the other side.

 

You can check the latest patch notes (as well as last week) to see opposing viewpoints. It is also worth mentioning that people are more likely to express their frustration with something than they are to defend something that is working for them.   https://forums.warpp...al-maintenance/

 

You can also check the OP to see the 3 main arguments surrounding AFK as consolidated from the 3+ other AFK related threads on the front page. Just because opposing views have not been expressed yet here, isn't evidence that there are no opposing views.

 

I am sure if people were interested in consolidating evidence they could. If that evidence would be allowed to be posted, I am sure many people could share chat logs they receive from AFK (idle, or standing still seeming AFK) players accusing them of KSing. People don't formulate these opinions from thin air. Many people have had these experiences.

 

This thread is meant to be a consolidation of opinions for CMs to review and perhaps offer clarification at a later date. Just because they are not posting every day, doesn't mean they aren't watching. A clear policy would be helpful, though Camp has already given a pretty solid basis to go on (cited in the OP). There are other gray areas they can address.

 

I've noticed a tendency of players to use the patch notes as a place to post their ideas / suggestions / complaints, when it is usually not the most organized place to have a discussion when the context of the discussion is so random.

Edited by Scuba, 10 July 2019 - 07:36 PM.

As I commented in other forum, Afk levers do not deserve respects from real players, with simple reason, they don't really spend their time in the game.

Afk levers was minority past time, but now it has been taken for granted and it spreads like disease.

What do you do for disease outbreak? We have to stop it just like we raise it and want to arrest.

Cant accuse ppls of KSing if they are just killing but not stealing. As the quote from WP suggests, the mobs do not belong to the afk levelers and thus KSing doesnt happen. There is no argument to make about afk levelers being KSed 'cause the issue does not even exist, no one is KSing afk levelers.

As the players in question are not actively engaging the monsters or leading them back to their party they have no claim to hold the monsters perpetually.

Edited by LordYggdrasill, 10 July 2019 - 07:55 PM.

As I commented in other forum, Afk levers do not deserve respects from real players, with simple reason, they don't really spend their time in the game.

Afk levers was minority past time, but now it has been taken for granted and it spreads like disease.

What do you do for disease outbreak? We have to stop it just like we raise it and want to arrest.

 

respect, minority, disease

 

don't take it to serious kiddo, this is just a game.