Explosives

BOURGS ARE NOT OP but grenades are...nerfing grenades will make them balanced but not launcher bourgs...it would just be a heavy nerf for them
bourgs should get an AP down and ASPD down while the success rate of grenades can be reduced to 60%
their cooldown can be incresed and you can craft 3 at a time (wont that be great )

you all act like PVP is the only thing that matters in Rose.the Number of Rose players that PVP is way less then the ones that do. first off never said Raiders were the strogest class. so that statement is Fail! i have 10 LVL 220s
none are geared for PVP. dont care to PVP. so the statement you should play Rose a little is another huge Fail
seems like every time you start to think you fail. maybe special Ed is the place for you not sure that might be a fail to.

Bryan already replied to your post, but I want to add that you keep saying you don't care about PvP, YET YOU KEEP REPLYING AND REPLYING! You didn't say raiders are the strongest PvP class, oh wait yea, you get always owned by them cause yours fails, so I can understand that. If none of your chars is geared for PvP, you can't give a single judgement about PvP. Mind your own "I has 10 lvl 220" crap and gtfo of this thread.

For Pvp, I've tried fighting cannonbourgs 1v1(even with 3.2-3.3k dodge) they can get you down to 40% before you even get to them.

Exactly, go tell them. I also had a 1vs1 fight with a launcher bourg at stairs in tunnel during UW. I don't know how but after a crapload of hits he was still alive and dropped me.

As I see it, if they're willing to take the time to craft an item 1 by 1 at an expense to them, it is fair for their lack of in every category compared to every other class. Their class has one single benefit: ranged attack(which every other class does have an option to be too).

And once again, why aren't crafted buff pots better than cleric's buffs then? They are crafted 1 by 1 at a more expensive price, cause you need a lot more mats, and they are worse. Oh right, we would kill clerics. But you don't even think that a 95% stun that lasts 2 second, has a 6 second cooldown and hits 3k even on a 3.5k dodge raider completely owns all the other stuns ingame? A consumale being better of 8 whole skill trees, except for soldier one maybe.

Balanced much, huh?

And once again, why aren't crafted buff pots better than cleric's buffs then? They are crafted 1 by 1 at a more expensive price, cause you need a lot more mats, and they are worse. Oh right, we would kill clerics. But you don't even think that a 95% stun that lasts 2 second, has a 6 second cooldown and hits 3k even on a 3.5k dodge raider completely owns all the other stuns ingame? A consumale being better of 8 whole skill trees, except for soldier one maybe.

Balanced much, huh?

3.5k dodge is not enough to dodge a bourg/arti, they probably have that much acc.

3.5k dodge is not enough to dodge a bourg/arti, they probably have that much acc.

That wasn't the point. Everyone of their skills hits 1-1.5k. Why should a consumable hit 2.5-3k without a chance to miss? That's what I meant.

Reliable skills don't miss either, but I am now wondering if accuracy affects grenades at all, if they do not do half damage if they miss then yes maybe that should be changed.
As for using them while muted, they are consumables, like rocks, snowballs or pots. So if they are changed that we cannot use them while muted they should also apply it to the others.

But honestly I read some being surprised cause they were ganged by 3 bourgs, but try vs 3 of any class and you might find out that you get stunned all the time too.

Bryan already replied to your post, but I want to add that you keep saying you don't care about PvP, YET YOU KEEP REPLYING AND REPLYING! You didn't say raiders are the strongest PvP class, oh wait yea, you get always owned by them cause yours fails, so I can understand that. If none of your chars is geared for PvP, you can't give a single judgement about PvP. Mind your own "I has 10 lvl 220" crap and gtfo of this thread.

i m gonna copy paste this straight to his new NERF CLOAKING suggestion

If i am not mistaken those nades were 3seconds and got lowered to 2

And once again, why aren't crafted buff pots better than cleric's buffs then? They are crafted 1 by 1 at a more expensive price, cause you need a lot more mats, and they are worse. Oh right, we would kill clerics. But you don't even think that a 95% stun that lasts 2 second, has a 6 second cooldown and hits 3k even on a 3.5k dodge raider completely owns all the other stuns ingame? A consumale being better of 8 whole skill trees, except for soldier one maybe.

Balanced much, huh?

From what I understood, if buff pots were better than cleric buffs, people wouldn't rely on Cleric's buffs so wouldn't that be unfair to them. I don't know about you, but I <3 Clerics.

IM "buff pots" are better than Clerics too, so if you want to pay a prettier penny you can use those?

I was just saying inventions and distance are a Dealer's asset in combat since they are not tanks, healers, or ambushers.

From what I understood, if buff pots were better than cleric buffs, people wouldn't rely on Cleric's buffs so wouldn't that be unfair to them. I don't know about you, but I <3 Clerics.

IM "buff pots" are better than Clerics too, so if you want to pay a prettier penny you can use those?

I was just saying inventions and distance are a Dealer's asset in combat since they are not tanks, healers, or ambushers.

And in fact you should've noticed long ago that I am not againts explosives in general. The reference is to the single grenade that has the above listed effects. (95% stun, 100% hit, 2 seconds stun, 6 seconds cooldown)

i m gonna copy paste this straight to his new NERF CLOAKING suggestion

Hahaha I replied to his silly notion about nerfing decloack a few mins ago before I read this post. Now I know that GreylaVu is just a clueless poster that just complains because imo hes weak in pvp because naturally hes more of pvm build.

On topic I also agree that the Grenades itself are overpowered but not the class. I hope you guys can come up with a good compromise, coz I can't atm. Regardless they need to do something about that item. There is a reason why they previously nerfed stuns for all classes to avoid stunlocks which Launch Bourgs clearly can and still do compared to other classes.

I don't think only 1 bourg can stun lock someone unless he is lucky on the %.
Artisans however have no problems doing it but there are not enough of them for the community to complain about

Edit : for what I hear about buff pots, most of them are better then cleric buffs.

Edited by Metaleux, 01 February 2011 - 06:05 AM.

Concussion grenades are different from other explosives. In my opinion, the stun chance of concussion grenade is not based on the accuracy of the user and ignore the opponent`s dodge. I think it should be change the way the other explosives work. But make the success rate a little bit high and also on the other explosives because other explosives excluding the concussion grenade have a very low chance of inflicting its effect when cast to an opponent with a good dodge rate.

I suggest, put a debuffing effect on a normal grenade like attack speed down, def down, attack power down etc.

You see the Grenade as a guarenteed stun but the Bourg class stuns %s are terrible at best.

As I stated before without grenades: GunBourgs get 1 60% chance stun, CannonBourgs get 1 ranged 35% and 1 melee 80%.

60% is an ok % to stun but it's cooldown is around 10 seconds. 35% is just horrible. Play those refining chances at Crune and see how many successes in a row you get. Their melee one requires them to run up to you(giving up their distance advantage) for a decent stun %.

It is simple math. They have basically a coin flip's chance of landing a succesful stun once for one second. But the kicker is, they have no de-buffs beside mspd for cannon and poison for gun. Their other choices for grenades are just as bad. A weak DoT, a lamer mana drain grenade, or a slightly more damaging grenade.

Now go through basically every other class and tell me how many stuns, stun %, debuffs they have.(Besides a Cleric). Because it isn't in your build does not mean you do not have access to it either.

It doesn't even really bother me either way. I was just orginally posting to let you know that grenades weren't just for Artisans but always has been for "Dealer". I'm sorry if it irrated you since this seems to be a heated topic(At least in the first page). I just wanted to give the facts behind the grenades.

Edited by Dusk1PS, 01 February 2011 - 05:05 AM.

You see the Grenade as a guarenteed stun but the Bourg class stuns %s are terrible at best.

As I stated before without grenades: GunBourgs get 1 60% chance stun, CannonBourgs get 1 ranged 35% and 1 melee 80%.

60% is an ok % to stun but it's cooldown is around 10 seconds. 35% is just horrible. Play those refining chances at Crune and see how many successes in a row you get. Their melee one requires them to run up to you(giving up their distance advantage) for a decent stun %.

It is simple math. They have basically a coin flip's chance of landing a succesful stun once for one second. But the kicker is, they have no de-buffs beside mspd for cannon and poison for gun. Their other choices for grenades are just as bad. A weak DoT, a lamer mana drain grenade, or a slightly more damaging grenade.

Now go through basically every other class and tell me how many stuns, stun %, debuffs they have.(Besides a Cleric). Because it isn't in your build does not mean you do not have access to it either.


It doesn't even really bother me either way. I was just orginally posting to let you know that grenades weren't just for Artisans but always has been for "Dealer". I'm sorry if it irrated you since this seems to be a heated topic(At least in the first page). I just wanted to give the facts behind the grenades.

Ok let's take raiders for example. They have 1 stun (I noticed Plasma Falcon is not), it's got a 75% success rate and not ranged.

GunBourgs have 1 60% stun ranged, Cannon Bourgs have one 35% ranged and one 80% melee. Should I say raiders need another stun? No, because they actually don't need it. They have cloak and a couple of decent debuffs. Fine with it.

Why should bourgs get another stun with 95% success rate ranged that never misses and does high damage? Do you consider it fair?

If there's something bourgs should complain for is the lack of debuffs, ask for those then! You're not gonna fix the issue with a godly-mode grenade that hits through everything and stuns 95 times out of 100, with the chance of throwing another one after only 6 seconds.

Ask for debuffs, nerf this grenade and improve the other ones instead, so you have a choice.

Of course bourgs are againts nerfing it, who doesn't like being overpowered?

The math is even simpler now: bourgs(gun-launcher) have 4 stuns now, while raiders have 1.

Give an extra stun to gun bourgs, reduce the success rate of the concussion grenade to 40 or 50% and make it able to miss.

That'd be a little balanced.

Ok let's take raiders for example. They have 1 stun (I noticed Plasma Falcon is not), it's got a 75% success rate and not ranged.

They have 2 stuns and a sleep.

I don't play a bourg so I don't really know how it goes, if they are good without them or not. But I assume if anything is changed on the grenades, it will change on the explosives also. And like I said, I do not know how long a bourg can survive, but an artisan dies very fast without the grenades xD since they are almost the the only things they have to survive appart from 1 sleep. They would get wrecked all the time.

Some might say artis are not ment to fight, but they are so much fun and I don't want them to suck xD

yeah i have to agree here

if you get lucky you might stun lock.....but if you fail you are virtually already dead considering the amount of hits you have wasted and the distance lost
its basically better if they give some debuffs to the grenades....and reduce duration to 1 sec

this does concern bourgs but not the topic

i seen my brother with his bourg and i observed that the core skills that are actually useful for PVP or UW consist of less than 140 SPs
i have included all passives and bourg skills in this......inferior buffs,master triple shot excluded,crafting skills,farming skills have been excluded from here
with master triple shot it can go to max 165 SPs which would still leave a full fledged PVP bourg wondering where to invest next

well most PVP bourgs might take reflect aura as it by far seems to be the best option although it takes 41 SPs and you get debuffed when you use guns

not that is is something that needs to be essentially taken into consideration
but i still wonder if that bourg tree could be filled up with some new skills though

Ok let's take raiders for example. They have 1 stun (I noticed Plasma Falcon is not), it's got a 75% success rate and not ranged.

GunBourgs have 1 60% stun ranged, Cannon Bourgs have one 35% ranged and one 80% melee. Should I say raiders need another stun? No, because they actually don't need it. They have cloak and a couple of decent debuffs. Fine with it.

Why should bourgs get another stun with 95% success rate ranged that never misses and does high damage? Do you consider it fair?

If there's something bourgs should complain for is the lack of debuffs, ask for those then! You're not gonna fix the issue with a godly-mode grenade that hits through everything and stuns 95 times out of 100, with the chance of throwing another one after only 6 seconds.

Ask for debuffs, nerf this grenade and improve the other ones instead, so you have a choice.

Of course bourgs are againts nerfing it, who doesn't like being overpowered?

The math is even simpler now: bourgs(gun-launcher) have 4 stuns now, while raiders have 1.

Give an extra stun to gun bourgs, reduce the success rate of the concussion grenade to 40 or 50% and make it able to miss.

That'd be a little balanced.

Albe, raiders have two stuns and a sleep. triple slas, sucker punch and mystic knife.

They have always had grenade as an option of a stun as long as I could remember. No one really used it, again as I previously stated in my first post, due to the crafting process.

They do not have 4 stuns. I'll break it down for you. Gun Bourgs will have Zulie Stun(60%) and 1 Grenade, that is 2. Cannons will have their ranged stun(35%) + Their melee stun(80%) + a Grenade. That's 3. Artisians have their aoe sleep, concussion grenade, and concussion explosive. That's 3 as well. Where do you get 4 from?

From what I see, Bourgs have not complained about anything unjustly. They just deal with it and work with what they got.

I'm not even caring how the debate turns out. I'm not baller enough to spend 15-25k zulie per bomb just to stun something for 2 seconds. As a former Raider, I understand the fustration of being stunned out and losing, but you're asking to nerf not one but two classes(Bourgs and Artis) just because they're using what the game gave them(even with it being nerfed from a more imbalanced 3 second stun, if what ChickenBucket said is correct). When they don't even have much to begin with.

Just be glad they don't AoE too like a Real Grenade would.

Edited by Dusk1PS, 01 February 2011 - 06:31 AM.

Just be glad they don't AoE too like a Real Grenade would.

...ROFL


any way cool down a bit
no one here wants bourgs to be nerfed they just want bourgs to be more balanced rather than the one sided grenade thing
you hit you win
u miss you lose

Yeah, I am sorry.

I know it sounds like I'm heated, but I really am not.

I'm stating facts and the truth is ugly sometimes.

They have 2 stuns and a sleep.

I don't play a bourg so I don't really know how it goes, if they are good without them or not. But I assume if anything is changed on the grenades, it will change on the explosives also. And like I said, I do not know how long a bourg can survive, but an artisan dies very fast without the grenades xD since they are almost the the only things they have to survive appart from 1 sleep. They would get wrecked all the time.

Some might say artis are not ment to fight, but they are so much fun and I don't want them to suck xD

Right, triple slash has a 45% stun and is a hawker skill, I actually didn't know, but ok let's count it. And sleep is not stun, you can fight back as soon as you get hit again, but let's count it too.

@Dusk1PS I said 4 stuns for bourgs (gun-launcher) meaning that I summed them. But you're right, it becomes 5 then (3 for launcher 2 for gun) which is still the same or more than Raiders' ones. So you can't say they have more stuns. And you can't even say success rates are better for raiders, because gun has 60% and 95%, and cannon bourg has 35%, 80% and 95%; while raiders have 45% and 75% + a 40% ranged sleep.

I would be fine with the concussion grenades even if they slept instead of stunning, at least you'd be able to run away and/or use a pot.

This topic is about grenades, not because they stun. I'm fine with the stun, but I'm not with the 95% success rate and the 100% hit.

Once again, bourgs should get some tweakings in their skill tree. I admit they need it, but this grenade ain't the solution, because believe it or not, is overpowered.

Right, triple slash has a 45% stun and is a hawker skill, I actually didn't know, but ok let's count it. And sleep is not stun, you can fight back as soon as you get hit again, but let's count it too.

@Dusk1PS I said 4 stuns for bourgs (gun-launcher) meaning that I summed them. But you're right, it becomes 5 then (3 for launcher 2 for gun) which is still the same or more than Raiders' ones. So you can't say they have more stuns. And you can't even say success rates are better for raiders, because gun has 60% and 95%, and cannon bourg has 35%, 80% and 95%; while raiders have 45% and 75% + a 40% ranged sleep.

I would be fine with the concussion grenades even if they slept instead of stunning, at least you'd be able to run away and/or use a pot.

This topic is about grenades, not because they stun. I'm fine with the stun, but I'm not with the 95% success rate and the 100% hit.

Once again, bourgs should get some tweakings in their skill tree. I admit they need it, but this grenade ain't the solution, because believe it or not, is overpowered.

I guess you're comparing Katar Raider vs. Gun + Launcher Bourg...thats not apples to apples. Try Katar + Dual Wield Raider amount of stuns vs. Gun + Launcher Bourg stuns. Gun + Launcher do have 5 with grenades, you are absolutely correct.

Triple Slash: Katar + Dual Swords
Sucker Punch: Katar + Dual Swords
Mystic Knife: Katar + Dual Swords

That's 6 no? 6 > 5. Unless the Compendium is not up to date, which means I could be wrong. This is how I see it right now.

The difference is, you have 2 stealth capabilities, de-buffs combined with 2 stuns and a sleep of decent %s. Bourgs and Arti do not have anything but a prayer that their natural class stun lands or rely on a grenade. If nothing lands, they are just done. Hawkers? Not so much with their Stealth and Higher Mspd.

Blame Phish for starting use the nades no one used them until he did then jagz used them then i did then rest is history

The difference is, you have 2 stealth capabilities, de-buffs combined with 2 stuns and a sleep of decent %s. Bourgs and Arti do not have anything but a prayer that their natural class stun lands or rely on a grenade. If nothing lands, they are just done. Hawkers? Not so much with their Stealth and Higher Mspd.

Exactly, thats why you should ask for tweakings, some debuffs especially, good ones. Once again, the grenade is just unbalanced.

ps: leave artisans out, they are not a pvp class.

Lets see.

It takes many many many hours to get the mats for grenades.. Then hour's more to craft grenades. Blame macro's and autoclickers all you want, but you are only going to make so many before having to be present to drop in new mats.
Grenades are easier to make than Explosives though.

Did you know an arti is not only spending many hours making, say a stack of Explosives (that they absolutely need, and do not say they should not be a pvp class, I see cleric's as pvp class too.. Where is the thread for them?) Is going to cost them 5,000 Rare metal.

Lets say you bought at 4k ea.. Which even at that can take many days to buy the Rare Metal.

Ok, That is 20 mill MANUFACTURERS COST to have a stack. Not to mention the time required.
Then they have to time them, as the cooldown will go if you click it, even if you are stunned, out of range, ect.

Bourg's and Arti's pay in time and money for their nades & explosives. AND STILL GET THRASHED.

you keep saying you don't care about PvP, YET YOU KEEP REPLYING AND REPLYING! You didn't say raiders are the strongest PvP class, oh wait yea, you get always owned by them cause yours fails, so I can understand that. If none of your chars is geared for PvP, you can't give a single judgement about PvP. Mind your own "I has 10 lvl 220" crap and gtfo of this thread.

exactly. for someone who constantly says he doesn't care about pvp, he tends to find his way through all these balancing threads. Just Sayin'

But on topic with the nades. from my own experience of actually playing the class (arti to be exact). I think there should be maybe a longer cooldown. I've used only concussion grenades and I can stun lock people quite easily.

In my opinion, Although a class may not be the best head on 1v1. I think we should look at things on a war perspective. Example: a raider may beat a champ or bourg 1v1 depending on luck of stuns and timing of pots. But in war, a group of aoe`ing champs or bourgs with their aoe stuns and grenades would have the upper hand vs a group of raiders.

So I think the only change would be give it a lil longer cooldown.

Edited by tENLAVUU, 01 February 2011 - 09:42 AM.