Feedback Wanted: Level difference and EXP gain

you know something is wrong when a wizard type gets better exp solo than with a party

I personally think higher because of the fact that leveling at a few areas that were popular before renewal are not popular anymore, and most of the quests that gave wonderful EXP are gone as well, because most of the quests that gave wonderful exp also had monsters that gave wonderful EXP as well, now there's no where to level at that's stable for level 71+ (for some classes, other classes it's lvl 86+) I honestly gave up leveling for level 85+ because of the fact that I can't find a stable place to level...and the fact that I don't have the patients, (I would ask my friends to come over and lvl me, but I have WAY too many un-account bound items that I don't want them to steal whilst I'm off watching TV or something) but I think that eden groups should have quests for 86+ until 100 or so, then there should be a job level eden quest for 99 third class+, but what do I know ): , I'm just adding my opinion/statement.

Voted for Low.
I know many who share this opinion.
Before Renewal, you could go out, hunting a card and maybe even gain a level for it.
Now, this isn't going to happen anymore. I would appreciate a change here in connection with a change of the drop penality btw ;o

But High is as well a topic. You can easily level your mage in Lou Yang, gaining the acutal exp of the monsters would of course be more benefiting, and I'm sure there are other places like this as well.
So why not remove it? Thanks to the penalitys for hit and damage, you mostly won't kill monsters tooo high for you anyway. And if you're able too, you should get the respective amount of exp for managing something like this!

Lots of people didn't come far enough yet to notice that the second option matters too.

I hope Heim made this thread to get suggestions to adjust it and not just because he has to make a "black&white" report about what we voted...
Unless such a report would allow him to adjust it.

Edited by Charon, 17 May 2011 - 02:47 AM.

Other than my 14x character, I tend to level against things that are 10-15 levels higher than me, so vote for too high. Other than Bio3 monsters and MVPs, all monsters +/- 15 levels are almost always a joke, and so I'd rather be fighting monsters 15-25 levels higher if not for the EXP upper penalty.

Just an idea to think about:

I personally voted that monsters too high giving low exp was my biggest problem, but consider this. Most players are not 150. Most players will have this problem. Any player 140+ might have the opposite problem. We may all eventually change our minds

prioritize. prioritize your resources gms... there are many many manymanymany bugs that either you know about, or are "working on" without updates. how bout another "State of the Game" address on ustream? i appreciate the introduction of the VIP dungeons, but would rather have the drop rates for VIP fixed first. if the staffing is too spread out, then things need to be fixed before your resources are too thin. that being said, what about the job exp table that was purposed to being looked at with the 1st dragon event in renewal? things id rather see than making this happen:

1. bugs being fixed (broken glorious fist, reflect(not RD), 1 shotting plant skills (HSCR for one), actual reductions to damage for woe(DB)if possible, thats not my only thought, random reported event and skill bugs (cannon balls anyone?)
2. job exp - listed already
3. drop rates for gum - http://forums.warppo...re-gums-broken//
4. party system - also stated before

after those are fixed, then we would be glad to welcome new events/places/dungeones/patches. sometimes somethings so broke it cant be fixed, but you gotta put forth the effort

Edited by BlackPotato, 17 May 2011 - 11:59 AM.

There are several issues here...


1) People can often easilly kill monsters before they can get exp from those monsters ("less exp from monsters that are too high of a level" - combined with an overall lack of challenge.

2) There is a horrible lack of options for high level monsters in general, forcing many players to grind on weak monsters, because there's nothing of higher level that's practical to level on. If Scaraba Hole was implemented, the high level situation would be significantly easier. Also, if leveling in biolabs offered a reward appropriate for the difficulty of the monsters, that would help aleviate this.

Really I think the problem is that the level range is too narrow. Even this wouldn't be as much of an issue, except that there are hardly any choices for places to level beyond 120. I mean, you go AL 120-130, but after that, you grind there until you hit the exp penalty, then grind there and deal with the brutal exp penalty, because it's still faster than the horrible crappy options otherwise available to you.

There just aren't enough good maps. High monster density is an absolute 100% must now - because there are no monsters that offer rewards that make them worth killing one at a time after level 110 or so. That leaves us with very few maps to level on, and with the level range further restricting us, it's often possible to find only one acceptable leveling ground for a charachter at a time - if that.


The more I think about the issue of the level exp penalty, the more I think that scrapping it entirely may not be the right solution. If we could widen the acceptable level range, and at the same time, fix some existing maps to be useful to level on, that would make the game work a lot better - without having to redo the experience curve, and without having to redo the exp awards from every monster in the game.


For example, thors is supposed to be a good place to level on. Why isn't it? Because the monsters are somewhat painful, the zone spawns were removed (WHY?!?!), the spawn is not sufficient to really mob... All of which would be fine, if killing them one-three at a time gave decent rewards. But it doesnt.
If I was going to fix thors, i'd do something like:
Restore zone spawns like pre-renewal.
Kasa attk should be upped like 25-50% (so the map is a challenge), and exp award should be increased significantly, so killing them with single target skills or in small mobs produces decent exp. Salamanders and guardians would get similar treatment - the idea being to make them scarier than kasas, so people have to avoid them, or prepare for a tough fight to kill them. (It's too easy to just rambo everything in renewal, go in guns blazing and everything comes out dead)

Bio3, obviously, needs to have the rewards on the monsters boosted. Alot. The bio3 monsters are actually challenging. They're alot more than 3 times as challenging as other monsters a few levels lower. Even with the 40% penalty - one bio monster is harder to deal with than a mob of whatever giving you equiv exp (even though you only get 40% of normal exp from the dragons because you've overleveled them). The rewards should be increased to 2.5-5x what they are now in biolabs. Zone spawns should be returned to biolabs, with the exception of the instaspawn HWiz and Sniper on the pillars.

Scaraba Hole looks like it will be an excellent map for leveling as it is now. Like, it looks like that map should have been implemented with renewal, so that there was a good place for high level characters to level in renewal - but no, they added an update to raise the max level, then 8 months later, we get a map for the new classes to level on...



I think it would be a valuable exercise to get a list of the current maps that people find usable for leveling (for level's over 100, when it's hard to level - anyone complaining about leveling prior to level 100 isn't trying. There are plenty of people talking about starting the game, getting 99 in under a week, and then being delayed because they did it so fast they don't have the 1.285m to trans with). This would give an idea of what things make a map useful to level on. Here's what I've got:

Niff 2 (only good at low-mid 10x, but definitely a respectable map)
Magma 2
Jup 1
Nameless 2
Abyss Lake 3
Biolabs 2 (for true badasses only, as the map is one of the few maps that's still painful)

Did I miss any good maps?

OMG. THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I THINK except i also think 1 or 2 areas should be brought up to level 140-150 status. I'm talking about maps that were THE place to be at level 90+ before renewal:

1) Anubis (These -_-s are are big to be so sad)
2) Ice Cave (If you could pro it it was faster than Anubis) (These -_-s also too big to be so sad)


My Edit
Here's what I've got:

Niff 2 (only good at low-mid 10x, but definitely a respectable map)
Magmaring (I know a GX who went from 100 to 130 in Magmaring)
Magma 2
Jup 1
Nameless 2 (Necromancer also too big to give such sad exp, lvl 3 SHOULD be better than lvl 2)
Abyss Lake 3
Biolabs 2 (for true badasses only, as the map is one of the few maps that's still painful)

Desert wolves and Kobolds are some places others go for now, i never really tried it.

I dread the thought of staying on the same AL map from level 125 to 150 (So many Stone buckler and other garage equips in storage after 1 hour there an so much more now that i am 128). Same place for so many days I did Moscovia (pre-renewal) from 84 to 94 and then Anubis (pre-renewal) from 94 to 99 but MY GOSH i was fed up with seeing Anubis after 99 never returned, not even on an alt. I CANT IMAGINE TWENTY FIVE LEVELS with the same ONE MAP OMG O__O My eyes will fall OUT OF my head. So boring, but i endure it anyway for the fun of WoE.

Edited by Trini, 17 May 2011 - 11:27 AM.

prioritize. prioritize your resources gms... there are many many manymanymany bugs that either you know about, or are "working on" without updates. how bout another "State of the Game" address on ustream? i appreciate the introduction of the VIP dungeons, but would rather have the drop rates for VIP fixed first. if the staffing is too spread out, then things need to be fixed before your resources are too thin. that being said, what about the job exp table that was purposed to being looked at with the 1st dragon event in renewal? things id rather see than making this happen:

1. bugs being fixed (broken glorious fist, reflect(not RD), 1 shotting plant skills (HSCR for one), actual reductions to damage for woe(DB), random reported event and skill bugs)
2. job exp - listed already
3. drop rates for gum - http://forums.warppo...re-gums-broken//
4. party system - also stated before

after those are fixed, then we would be glad to welcome new events/places/dungeones/patches. sometimes somethings so broke it cant be fixed, but you gotta put forth the effort

Want to reduce DB damage, wear Fire armor, yes it is a neutral attack in the end, that is to bypass jakk card and fire resist pot, etc, but fire armor still makes it do damage.

Want to reduce DB damage, wear Fire armor, yes it is a neutral attack in the end, that is to bypass jakk card and fire resist pot, etc, but fire armor still makes it do damage.

tao armor makes it not deal damage. its fire, and should be fire. but that wasnt the main point of my post, thx for taking the least memorable part personally i guess?

Just a comment on the repeatable (party kills) exp quests.

I agree it was nice but, I don't agree it should have taken you to 99 (Max Level) because we end up with a lot of lazy ass noobs who can't even play their character cuz they don't know BASIC things. On the other hand it taught people about other classes skills as partyin'g was the norm but please if you are to do repeatable exp quests, start it somewhere like level 90 (A few levels after eden group to learn basics) and then end it around 140 (A level where all classes can at least compete with a 150 and also allowing 10 more levels of normal game play so that players can experience the game and the kind of leveling that the original players experienced).

Edited by Trini, 17 May 2011 - 11:43 AM.

Definitely should be monsters that are too HIGH of a level compared to characters giving less exp.

Why?
Because lower levels who want to challenge themselves (maybe solo or with a large party) cannot and are forced to fight monsters that they can kill easily with little rewards of exp. The lower levels who wish to challenge themselves get large exp rewards, faster leveling, and the satisfaction of "Oh, I killed that super hard monster!" This would bring back the old RO feel that I believe everyone liked.


Another point is that the players who are already established on this server are allowed less frustration when creating new characters, because the new system makes low-level leveling EXTREMELY tedious whereas the mid-range (eg. lv40-80 or so) levels have it easy, and then from 90+ it starts to slow down a lot again. But low-level leveling is still very tedious, and the pace is way too slow for comfort.


Please please please! Bring back the old EXP system. My friend and I have been stuck with leveling since all the monsters in our range are too risk-free to pose any threat and reward-less in terms of EXP gain. We could easily go to Anubis and TU them to death but the level gap will only give us less EXP than what we got with our risk-free and reward-less monsters. (I'm a monk with MS,root, etc. and my friend is a FS priest with TU lv10)

This is my two cents on this matter. Hope you guys are able to get to my feedback, and I'm sure everyone else agrees that the old EXP system was definitely better, or at least removing the level cap EXP gain. Only reason to have the new exp system is to make leveling more interesting, because of having to shift through different monsters every 5 or so levels. But even that will turn into a big chore sooner or later for new players and veterans alike.

tao armor makes it not deal damage. its fire, and should be fire. but that wasnt the main point of my post, thx for taking the least memorable part personally i guess?

personally?? @_@ oh well i guess i won't understand somethings in this world and yes even with Tao it will do damage.

100% Damage x 25% Against Fire Armor = 25% damage.
200% Damage x 25% Against Fire Armor = 50% of (generally normal) damage.

and OMG it sucks that soooooooo many people have Tao, how will we stand a chance?

prioritize. prioritize your resources gms... there are many many manymanymany bugs that either you know about, or are "working on" without updates. how bout another "State of the Game" address on ustream? i appreciate the introduction of the VIP dungeons, but would rather have the drop rates for VIP fixed first. if the staffing is too spread out, then things need to be fixed before your resources are too thin. that being said, what about the job exp table that was purposed to being looked at with the 1st dragon event in renewal? things id rather see than making this happen:

1. bugs being fixed (broken glorious fist, reflect(not RD), 1 shotting plant skills (HSCR for one), actual reductions to damage for woe(DB)if possible, thats not my only thought, random reported event and skill bugs (cannon balls anyone?)
2. job exp - listed already
3. drop rates for gum - http://forums.warppo...re-gums-broken//
4. party system - also stated before

after those are fixed, then we would be glad to welcome new events/places/dungeones/patches. sometimes somethings so broke it cant be fixed, but you gotta put forth the effort

Potato, gum works, drop it dude.

We are prioritizing, bugs and system changes are fixed by HQ unless it is a script issue, which is on us. I'm letting the bug/system stuff get handled as it should while we concentrate on what will have the biggest impact in the short and long term for player number growth. Right now people getting tagged with inability to level or frustration at not having gear is what will keep new players from growing. Veteran players can overcome those hardships through years of knowledge and warehouses of gear, but making it so they have fun and party is what will keep them playing.

Anything that is updated of this magnitude does need to be reported and justified, threads like this help to justify making changes of great magnitude, stuff like the job leveling progression would certainly require a thread like this too.

I feel as though, that if you can genuinely handle a higher level monsters (with a PARTY) you should get much more exp for that kill, BUT, if you kill a ton of low monsters it should even out. That's how it used to be and that's what worked ^^;;

Edited by yarumasi, 17 May 2011 - 09:11 PM.

I'd like higher lv monsters to grant more EXP. There is no point to reducing exp gain from low lv monsters though, so I'd say yay and yay. The death penalty is far from a punishment, kinda feels like killing 1 monster scaled to your level just lost.

I voted for lower.

My avg active char level is ~120 now, and even if the mobs over 135 had a 140% modifier instead of a 40% modifier, I still wouldnt level there because they take 3-5x as long to kill.

I absolutely agree 100% with what Azzy said.

Scarab hole will go a really long way to fixing the upper leveling area problem. Back pre-renewal we had about 6-8 different popular leveling spots endgame, with varying levels of challenge (anubis, ID3, odins/AL3, thors, DG, bio3) now we pretty much just have 1 place post 110 or so thats good then 1-2 mediocre places if you can't level in the 'good' place.

I think another big problem (probably for a diff thread) is that players are looking at the kRO updates and seeing the good fixes (new enchant/gears for magic users, leveling spots, skill balances) then looking at what we have and saying "meh its going to be a year+ before we get that, i'll play another game and come back later" THIS wasnt an issue when we were only 4-6months behind on updates. You can blame diablo3 for long wait times striking a nerve with me lol.

Edited by Hrothmund, 18 May 2011 - 05:04 AM.

I have to say...the High Level monsters.

Why?
- oh because the amount of exp we get on killing highlvlmons aren't decent, to say it's worst than ever.

-I think, that we should give a bit less exp on LOWlvlmons since we get a huge amount of % while our characters on peewee stage only need a few to level up. & so that also helps them build something we call "sentimental value" on their peewee characters.

-WHEREAS, the high level players tend to get about what 2000-5000 exp at about level 125+ is definitely like a level 99 killing a poring (to make you guys feel better, a Hode perhaps). now, who would want that?

-Without the exp quest, there wouldn't be ALOT of 150 these days. I say, put the exp quest npc, giving the right amount of exp (not the item npc, the kills npc) and a full party should get at least 2.5x exp as bonus, if the party is full. if not then they get 1x only <-- this will support partying. (i think the 0exp on kills is better than if we have because we wont be able to share it if one player is not in range)

then make it a monthly event, each first week of month perhaps

-well ofcourse the amount of HEBM buyers will sky rocket as usual.

- i kno, this will speed the process abit but hey, I didn't say "incease the exp on monsters after kills" this wont take away the other players pride to say that they are RAW GRINDERS and that they are the real best compared to noobs that leveled only on quests. PURE GENIUS I EH?

-it'll be fun if there are lots of people on each server. like when RO first got out, it was like 9-13k people playing, it was crowded all over RO. I MISS THOSE TIMEs, those where the times, the memorable ones. *SOB*

Edited by geniewinie, 18 May 2011 - 05:19 AM.

Both matter.
It's not one or the other.
It just depends whether you're below or above 120.

Potato, gum works, drop it dude.

We are prioritizing, bugs and system changes are fixed by HQ unless it is a script issue, which is on us. I'm letting the bug/system stuff get handled as it should while we concentrate on what will have the biggest impact in the short and long term for player number growth. Right now people getting tagged with inability to level or frustration at not having gear is what will keep new players from growing. Veteran players can overcome those hardships through years of knowledge and warehouses of gear, but making it so they have fun and party is what will keep them playing.

Anything that is updated of this magnitude does need to be reported and justified, threads like this help to justify making changes of great magnitude, stuff like the job leveling progression would certainly require a thread like this too.

really? did your test? got your research? where is it? no, didnt think so. check out the multiple posts of people using their personal time in this grindfest to test it. gum doesnt work with vip. its different from before, so therefor isnt working. GOD its the same problem with exp. you just blah blah "working as intended" until enough people complained. not sure WHY the gum issue hasnt had people up in arms, maybe its since theres no concrete data that we can screen shot and send in, like "heres a poring, 2 exp before vip, 1 exp now". know what? never buying another god damned thing from your company again. you have the enron business model, you to the consumer. so done with this crap... guess it wont matter to me anymore, since i wont be vip, and the gum then will work "as intended"

Edited by BlackPotato, 18 May 2011 - 07:49 AM.

really? did your test? got your research? where is it? no, didnt think so. check out the multiple posts of people using their personal time in this grindfest to test it. gum doesnt work with vip. its different from before, so therefor isnt working. GOD its the same problem with exp. you just blah blah "working as intended" until enough people complained. not sure WHY the gum issue hasnt had people up in arms, maybe its since theres no concrete data that we can screen shot and send in, like "heres a poring, 2 exp before vip, 1 exp now". know what? never buying another god damned thing from your company again. you have the enron business model, you to the consumer. so done with this crap... guess it wont matter to me anymore, since i wont be vip, and the gum then will work "as intended"

Seriously? You're going to be a complete ignorant jerk to Heimdallr and expect to get out of it? He of ALL people would know the testing/research behind it, and it does work, but you believe everything you read. Please be more considerate in your posts.

Seriously? You're going to be a complete ignorant jerk to Heimdallr and expect to get out of it? He of ALL people would know the testing/research behind it, and it does work, but you believe everything you read. Please be more considerate in your posts.

screw you. he reposted in another thread, so mind your own business mr. internet tough guy. and i believe everything ive seen actually, since gum rates have been redicuously low since vip was introduced. learn to read and you might not look like such a jackass next time. im very glad that heims going to work on it this weekend, and it wasnt "broken" as in not working at all. it works fine with non vip rates.

Scarab hole will go a really long way to fixing the upper leveling area problem.

Unsure how it will work out since the second floor ones all have stone skin.

I have personal experience with this and it was frustrating at some times. I had transcended with my rogue and the new high thief could easily kill monsters that were 15, 20 and even 30 lvls above him. Even in higher lvls, on my way to zombie prisoners, I killed (I was about lvl 76-77) carats (lvl 103) on the way, but of course, they (the carats) gave no EXP for what it took to kill him.

I would say that to lvl my trans char from lvl 1 - 95 was not challenging at all. I always killed monsters that were +10 lvls (to get the extra 40% EXP). It would have been a lot more fun it there was a higher challenge acompanied with greater rewards (improvement on the EXP/LVL system).

edit:
Also if higher level monsters would give more EXP, I believe that consequently it would promote more parties to be made.

Edited by Unglued, 18 May 2011 - 11:22 PM.

There should be a reward for taking the risk of killing high level monsters, the lvl/exp penalty looks good is someone keep killing weaker monsters than him, but not for high lvl mobs.

Edited by Cepo, 18 May 2011 - 07:46 PM.