19 replies to this topic

[Chimiko]

Bug list i've gotten from playing my rogue also a few sugestion how to improve the rogue gameplay:
This is not a guide by anymeans if you wish to a guide i suggest you check out Klyde's guide here: http://forums.warppo...th-rogue-guide/

Bugs:

Dark Illusion: does not always hit its target, it can teleport you behind the target without attacking it. It's almost unusable in colo and fast moving mobs. It also does not always crit.
Mark of Death: Can actually miss, im not sure if its intended or not but i doubt it is for a 2min cooldown.
Moonlight Drive: Does not always deal the 2x damage from crits on the last "big attack" (not sure how the damage calculations are handled so this is unconfirmed for the time being)
Crescent Moon: When used on a target that's not standing still the person "glides" away from you while being stunned. Then re-appear at the position where it originally got stunned.

Gameplay Improvments:

Moonlight Drive: The animation is waaay to long as it is right now. It makes it more of an annoyance to use. We're already heavily crippled from being melee. We dont need to be crippled even more. PvE and PvP alike.
Suggestion: Increase the animation speed of the ability.

Crescent Moon: This ability feels abit iffy. The CP cost's is to high to make it worth using. In all fairness. Its garbage. No one uses it and if they do its a waste of CP's. The reason why i say this is because it costs 5 CP's to make someone stunned for 5 seconds and yes it's horrible. It takes us way to long to build up another 5 CP's to use deadly blow or moonlight drive. Not even 5 cp > Crescent moon > dirty plan > 5 cp > Crescent moon is worth it due to the animation time of Dirty plan. Don't get me wrong there are in some very rare situations that it's actually good, a very low priest trying to heal himself and you CM him with maybe 3 CP's just to cancel it out and kill him with a double attack. But that's about it.
Suggestion: Lower the cooldown to 30~40 seconds and make it so that when putting points into CM it will cost less CP from 5 > 4 > 3 > 2 > 1 for a 5 second stun. Remove the cooldown reduction from ranking it completely so its always 30~40 seconds.

Mark of Death: The animation of this is way to long as well, it also cancels your auto attacking, it is rather annoying when your trying to weaving. That's a DPS loss right there.
Suggestion: Make it so Mark of Death counts as an offensive ability and does not break auto-attacking

Smoke Bomb: Smoke bomb should remove all form of dots/cc's we have on us and make us immune to damage for like 0.5 sec. Call it WoW rogue's or not but people's dot's holds way to long we can hardly use it without going out of stealth 0.5 seconds later. It would also help us to get closer to a target. Right now we cannot do ANYTHING other than 1 ability when we're snared and we have no movement speed increases so we can't catch up with people
Suggestion: Give smoke bomb a 0.5 damage immunity when hopping into hide also break all CC and removes all DOT's when doing so to increase the mobility of the rogue class.

Dirty Plan: This is probably the most annoying ability to use in Colo even considering how good it is. The "animation" and "Animation lock" needs to be removed from this ability. It hinders our "fast paced" gameplay button mashing style. I've died SO many times due to the stupid animation.
Suggestion: Remove the Animation and the Animation lock on your character completely from this ability.

Unstable Dopping: This ability is great don't get me wrong but the cost of keeping this ability up is way to high. The convert rate should be more up around 20~30% instead of 10%. It takes way to long to rack up the 30% attack power. Specially if you died in a fight or doing colo. Even with spamming pots. Also its VERY costly.
Suggestion: Increase the HP to ap convert rate to speed lessen the burden on rogues to always have to carry tons of pots to rack up 30% AP or you could buff the buff duration but that wouldn't help rogues in colo. to maybe 5min or 4min insted of 3.

Gangster's Paradise:This ability is for our survival, it's actually its our only ability for survival other than smoke bomb. It's a very good one aswell for duels. Unfortunaly it costs 5 CP to make it 10 seconds to make use of its full potential that make's it VERY VERY hard to use in high pressure situation both with PvE and PvP. The 5 CP cost is simply to high. Why you might ask. If you get hit by an AoE attack and have 1k hp left the first thing you're going to do is pot(pve) then your going to use Gangster's Paradise. The problem is that you almost never have 5 CP's up and running to use the full duration of GP. So before you racked up 5 CP's against your going to be at full health from all the AoE healing and you just wasted GP cooldown for nothing. Im not saying the ability is bad cause it's not its very much essential for the rogue class but it feels like it cripples us more than it helps us at times. GP should also heal you the moment you activate it. It does not. It ONLY heals you after 2 seconds of running.
So here is a scenario:
You get hit by 5k damage > you have 1k left > you pot for 1k > so you have 2k > activates GP > 1 second goes and you get hit by another AoE ability that hits you for 2k, you die.
The point is that we need it to heal us the moment you use it. Not 2 seconds afterwards cause then its problay to late. All the mobility was given to the assassin's rogues got no mobility at all, we need to become a more durable class else our class will eventually die out.
Suggestion: Increase the cooldown on GP from 30 > 40 seconds at max rank, also consider making it cost less CP or none at all. Make GP "heal" the moment you activate the ability instead of 2 seconds.


Survival vs Mobility:

I feel like the rogue need's a bit more mobility. Like Klyde talk's about in his guide is that he prefer using Deadly Blow over Moonlight Drive is cause of the extremely long animation lock we have on our character while using that ability, it also does not stun it like monk's G-fist does so its extremely hard to use on mobility fights or PvP. Too many classes have snares/movement speed increases. Due to that i feel like we are being left behind a bit in this department. Rogues need some form of sprint or the ability to use Dark Illusion outside of Hide as a gap closer so we can get into the "fight" again after running out of it or if someone is trying to run away from you lesser its damage and increase the cooldown + remove it building CP. Assassin's have Pounce to get in plus they have the movement speed to back it up. Rogues NEED's something to slow their enemy's with. Preferably a % slow on throwing dagger would be great or on poisons. Assassin's dosent need it cause they have the movement speed but the rogues need it so so badly. We need to beable to stick on people.

Rogue DPS:

Im not going to go as far and say that rogue dps is not good cause it's okayish as long as you can play properly. Keeping Adrenaline Rush up along with keeping stuff on CD the best you can. Rotating marks etc. However i do feel like we are losing way to much damage while running out without the ability to get back in, i do understand Gravity's Logic behind the class. They tried making the rogue a bit more tanky than the Sin so the rogue can stay in and "tank" some of the AoE insted of having to run out. However that's not how it works in PvE atleast cause GP does not heal enough for that. I do feel like assassin's and Rogues are ABOUT equal on the dps in PvE but i do feel at times that assassin's have the upperhand on us.
As for PvP, rogue dps is good don't get me wrong we do a lot of damage if we can stick on somebody. however we cant. There is no way for a rogue to stick on people. It create's to much issue, with the lack of CC we have it makes it very hard to do something properly. The CP cost for Crescent Moon is to high to get of the 5 sec stun. It's to much hassle and with the "gliding" bug you always regret using it.

Rogue's CP Management and Build up.

I've been wanting to find something to say about this for awhile now, the rogue mechanic works like this:
The rogue uses attack's that builds up CP (Combo Points just like the Rogue from another MMO we all know so well), then he uses those Combo points to unleach finishers such as Deadly Blow and Moonlight drive. I Agree with the developers that his is how it should be. What i do NOT agree with is that some of our other stuff costs CP such as Gangster's Paradise and Moonlight Crecent. The CP usage on them needs to go away or be reduced or rogues need a way to build up CP faster. We are to addicted to our CP's.

Note people that these are my personal opinions and I'm not here to start a flame war, simply to vent out my opinion about my experience with the rogue class so far.


- BaggeN

Edited by Chimiko, 28 May 2013 - 12:36 PM.

[TokumeiSennin]

I would add, thats Dark Illusion not alway hit crit too, sometimes its just hit non-crit dmg.

[Velouce]

A lot of other classes have similair problems with skills that work a lot like ours. Rogues just have too many of those skills that are effected by those bugs.

Many strong bursts might go fast but have a long casting time, while Moonlight Drive is instant. But I still agree it should be faster, or at least allow us to move a bit when casting it. The skill is soo damn dangerous to use in Bapho hard. This damn goat casts a crack over me like most of the time exactly when I'm using Moonlight Drive, this gives me headaches... Also as a burst in Colo, it sometimes wont get you the final blow because someone else hits in between the many attacks of Moonlight Drive.

The Dirty Plan casting time alone isn't the only problem, there is a delay for using skills after it. This makes it pretty much impossible to use it in emergency situations, because before you can use Dirty Plan + Smoke Bomb / Gangster's you're already dead.

[Chimiko]

Moonligh drive might be instant even with all those blows that it does its still HARD to last hit with it. Often you try not to use it just during colo and just save the 5 CP's and pray to the RNG god your deadly blow will crit insted.

[ZefirusKZ]

I already mentioned those bugs before, but still haven't received any feedback from CM's.
http://forums.warppo...__fromsearch__1

[Chimiko]

CM's doesn't seam to be very active. That's a shame cause eventually the bugs are going to shove people away from the game.
The bug's overall are not THAT horrible. The design of the rogue class is however terrible. Anyone doing endgame raiding or PvPing on a daily basis know's what im talking about. The rogue class falls behind from its counter part assassin in all department other than dps where they are equal.

[sephiroso]

Not many of these are bugs actually.

Mark of Death missing is working as intended, its still an 'attack' so its normal for it to miss.

Dark Illusion is a bit wonky but its not because of the skill itself, its the games collision settings that aren't optimized. Basically if you're moving while using Dark Illusion you'll often teleport to the mob but be facing the wrong way or if the mob is moving it can move 1 step out of range after teleport and then you end up hitting it with a regular attack instead of dark illusion, simple fix is to only use dark illusion when you're within 15m of mob and you won't see anymore problems.

Who said last hit on Moonlight drive crits every time on the last hit? Also while on the subject of crits, which ties into what you said about Dark Illusion not always critting. Crits can be parried. So Dark Illusion actually does always crit, you just got parried which made it do half dmg which is basically a regular hit.

For crescent moon, again, not bugged skill. Its just mob/player collision in this game is pretty -_-ty. Thats why you see stuff like this. And other visual bugs like party members taking off into/up/over a mountain even though they're standing right next to you. Or someone moonwalking on their mount.

[RoseRIP]

I was planning on becoming a rogue ever since I started playing Ragnarok Online 2. After reading your thread, it made me become an assassin even though I am not too fond of the character's design. The whole "building up combo aspect" is what got to me as it seems like a challenge to consistently build up combo points in the Colisseum.

Also your point about Gangster's Paradise and how it might be too late to save you when you really need the healing is what also got me to change from rogue to assassin.

Edited by RoseRIP, 30 May 2013 - 08:54 AM.

[sephiroso]

I was planning on becoming a rogue ever since I started playing Ragnarok Online 2. After reading your thread, it made me become an assassin even though I am not too fond of the character's design. The whole "building up combo aspect" is what got to me as it seems like a challenge to consistently build up combo points in the Colisseum.

Also your point about Gangster's Paradise and how it might be too late to save you when you really need the healing is what also got me to change from rogue to assassin.

you made the wrong choice, Rogue > assassin in every way. In colo only reason Assassin > rogue is cause of speed from their form certainly not because rogues have to build up combo points, cause rangers have to build up concentration but look at them they still kill easy enough(and yes i realize they are ranged). But in every other aspect in the game, Rogue > Assassin.

building up combo points is easy. only reason GP wouldn't save you or keep you alive is cause you waited to long to use it, its a heal over time, as in you use it when you're around 60-70% hp not when you're low and about to die.

if you don't know how to play the class, you'll fail at it, plain and simple no matter what class you choose.

[Cthulhuzealot]

LOL? Rogue is in no way a bad Class... And not getting dirty plan maxed is so dumb... people think Dancing is great, but is so useless, flashy, but useless. As a Rogue you can solo pretty much most of Area bosses and Dun bosses alone with no trouble. Good luck doing the same as an Assassin.

Edited by Cthulhuzealot, 30 May 2013 - 08:16 PM.

[Loimko]

I must agree. GP works fine, you just need to time it better. Most heavy (AoE) attacks are 'announced' so you can anticipate by using GP before the hit lands so it tops you up real quick after being hurt

[Chimiko]

GP does work fine but it needs tuning, you can't use it in high pressure situations. I mean if you KNOW it's coming then your not pressured lol.
What i wanted with GP was simply to remove it's CP cost, increase its cooldown and make it heal on the click insted of after 2 seconds.

[sephiroso]

GP does work fine but it needs tuning, you can't use it in high pressure situations. I mean if you KNOW it's coming then your not pressured lol.
What i wanted with GP was simply to remove it's CP cost, increase its cooldown and make it heal on the click insted of after 2 seconds.

you can clearly use it in high pressure situations, and the fact that EVERY big aoe is announced before it happens means there should be no case where you "can't use it in high pressure situations"

GP doesn't need to be changed, its perfect the way it is, you need to just learn to play.

[Chimiko]

you can clearly use it in high pressure situations, and the fact that EVERY big aoe is announced before it happens means there should be no case where you "can't use it in high pressure situations"

GP doesn't need to be changed, its perfect the way it is, you need to just learn to play.

How did this turn into a slander fest? I don't see why you need to tell me that i need to "learn how to play the game" cause i have my own opinion on a couple of ability that i feel could have been better?
Please stop typing here if the only good thing you can come up with is "learn to play."

In my point of view "high pressure" situation is when unexpected damage hits you in the face and you can't really do anything about it. Let's take PvP then since it's easier applied here you constantly have to juggle Combo points, sometimes even building combo points can be tricky as a rogue, anyone who done collo a couple of times should know that.

Getting 5 CP's is hard and its very unattractive to use it on GP unless your in a 1v1, but that doesnt really happen very often the fact that you have to build up what? 5 CP's to get full effect of the ability makes it lose its charm. You can't really use 1 cp on GP cause it's more of a waste and it wont help you much.
We are forced to use CP's on GP and i feel like it hinder our damage way to much in PvP, i also feel like it's actually hard to get to the point where i could use GP without "wasting" the cooldown. Also there are countless times in PvP i've used GP and died 1 second later when that first tick would have healed me enough for me to survive and pot to fight another day.

I'm not sure why you are being so passive aggressive about this, this is simply my point of view about the ability. If you can't grasp that then you don't need to share you thoughts around it by telling me that i need to learn how to play the game. Come with constructive feedback or a proper discussion and i'll gladly join in.

[sephiroso]

How did this turn into a slander fest? I don't see why you need to tell me that i need to "learn how to play the game" cause i have my own opinion on a couple of ability that i feel could have been better?
Please stop typing here if the only good thing you can come up with is "learn to play."

In my point of view "high pressure" situation is when unexpected damage hits you in the face and you can't really do anything about it. Let's take PvP then since it's easier applied here you constantly have to juggle Combo points, sometimes even building combo points can be tricky as a rogue, anyone who done collo a couple of times should know that.

Getting 5 CP's is hard and its very unattractive to use it on GP unless your in a 1v1, but that doesnt really happen very often the fact that you have to build up what? 5 CP's to get full effect of the ability makes it lose its charm. You can't really use 1 cp on GP cause it's more of a waste and it wont help you much.
We are forced to use CP's on GP and i feel like it hinder our damage way to much in PvP, i also feel like it's actually hard to get to the point where i could use GP without "wasting" the cooldown. Also there are countless times in PvP i've used GP and died 1 second later when that first tick would have healed me enough for me to survive and pot to fight another day.

I'm not sure why you are being so passive aggressive about this, this is simply my point of view about the ability. If you can't grasp that then you don't need to share you thoughts around it by telling me that i need to learn how to play the game. Come with constructive feedback or a proper discussion and i'll gladly join in.

if you want to talk pvp then again learn to play. thats where you use dirty plan for instant 5 combo point GP. Also i have no issues at all gaining combo points for the express purpose of using GP in colo. here's a tip, dont chase ranged while trying to do so. if i find myself targeted, i'll keep up as much as i can with pots and i save duel stab for either when i need points to heal or when someone is really low and i need a 5pt deadly blow asap.

also on the subject of cp's in colo, you shouldn't be spamming your cp's needlessly anyway. the only times you do so are when someone is relatively low or you need heals. or dirty plan is off cd and you don't forsee yourself needing to use it for GP usage.

all of this comes under the "learn to play" comment i said before

Edited by sephiroso, 02 June 2013 - 12:29 PM.

[ZefirusKZ]

Got champion in colo today (Usually would lose at round 3-4). Even with rubberbanding issues, rogues can pvp. I double sephiroso's statements to learn how to play >_<

[sephiroso]

Got champion in colo today (Usually would lose at round 3-4). Even with rubberbanding issues, rogues can pvp. I double sephiroso's statements to learn how to play >_<

yup, was messing around in colo yesterday/today on my rogue fully not expecting to get past round 2. yesterday got to final round(lost), and also got to 2nd to last round same day. today i got to 2nd to last round again.

oh yea, did i mention yesterday my rogue was lvl 33(41 today)? lol...if i was 50 would easily be making final round each time and probably win 20% of the time. this is with people having colo weapons/armor im up against too.

[RayMD]

Rogues are dying, thanks Gravity

[Adamage]

Sounds good to me, go play a sorc then, or a ranger. ^^ Ill keep my daggers.

[mysticalre]

well there's the l2p part, but you have to admit, the mechanics of some skills are pretty bad. I think most if not all (?) other classes have a reliable stun, rogue's costs 5 combo points. Then smoke bomb, it's pretty damn good, but easy to counter :/

It's currently impossible to smokebomb if someone is continuously casting on/attacking you, because they ALWAYS finish their cast, and it always hits you (even if you smoke and you go invisible, you get hit because they were charging up when you smoked and get revealed.... zzzz). There is no timing you can do to smoke and exit combat without getting hit out of hide again. Same thing with DOT damage

I agree with the doping one too, I don't mind keeping it as is, except keep the ATK buff when you log off... buffing gangster's paradise to less combo points would make it totally op though, it's fine as it is now, it's worth the 5 combo pts

Edited by mysticalre, 14 June 2013 - 12:54 AM.