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#51 Kasmalisus

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 05:29 AM

Well, but Neura exists, and even if it wouldn't, I still have the free reset lol.
-Okay, Summon Flora can be a bad skill comparing it to Hell Plant, but I should remake the skill tree to get that one.
-What do you mean by azoth/hocus pocus the mvp? Be more specific, can't understand you, sorry.
-Why is it so bad? Is it only for the fixed cast time? or what?
-You mean I should put off 2 points of vending so I don't use the biochemist skill points for that, right?
-Demonic Fire is in lvl 5, and I think it's the greates lvl of the skill, isn't it?

So, why is so damn wrong? Use that web and make a correct skill tree for a non-woe only mvp geneticist should have and post it here then, please.

Edit: oh, and btw. That skill tree is what I wanted to have, not what I have. but yeah, I was on my way to that one :P
Edit2: I made this new one http://irowiki.org/~...jSqqjNrFaoaeIn1 9 points left. Don't know if Mixed Cooking worth it since I don't really know the formula to create the items, or is it just random?

Well, back when I was leveling my gene, I had hell plant at a point... and I couldn't find any practical use for it in PvM. It's a good skill in WoE for various reasons (I think it bypasses reductions to some extent... it's certainly not ranged like AB and CC are, so I figure it'd do more damage. Need a WoE gene to confirm this, though), but it's pretty much not worth using on a single target monster when you can just bomb or cannon them.

As for what Exvee meant, is you can transform cultivated plants/shrooms by use of azoth dagger and or hylozoist accessories. Sage's hocus pocus skill has a chance of giving you control of a targetable skill (which is labeled as ????, IIRC... but four skills or so share this trait in name) that can transform any monster into a random boss monster.

Aid Condensed Potion has quite an aftercast delay, actually — something that wasn't present in pre-renewal, which was part of why the skill was pretty decent. Also, considering how much HP third classes get, the heal rate in ratio to that is abysmal. High priests had no AoE heal and such, so this skill was a nice heal back then. But with bishops having coluseo to heal the entire party (even through walls), and boosted heal rates from their gears and all that, aid condensed is seriously just a total waste of points. The delay on it is easily the worst part, though.

Y'know, a lot of genes get vending and all... and that's fine. I kept it at 8 (and I'm dropping it later) on my gene, because I have two vendors on other accounts to sell the junk I need.

Demonic fire does incredibly poor damage, so it's not worth boosting it above the lvl3 prereq. Although, the duration of the skill might couple with fire expansion levels 1 to 4, but I've never actually tested them. Level 4 FE looks like it'd be interesting to use against ghost-type MVPs as support in a party (assuming it even works on them). Most PvM genes utilize just FE lvl5, though, as it's an AoE AB. The level of the DF put down has no effect on FE 5's damage, and hence why getting it maxed could be considered a waste.

As for Mixed Cooking...

Success formula compares the value of A to B.
A = (Caster’s Job Level / 4) + (Caster’s LUK / 2) + (Caster’s DEX / 3)
B = Random number between (30 ~ 150) + Difficulty rate
Success = if A value, (Caster’s Job Level / 4) + (Caster’s LUK / 2) + (Caster’s DEX / 3) is greater than B value, (Random number between 30 ~ 150) + Difficulty rate
Failure = if A value, (Caster’s Job Level / 4) + (Caster’s LUK / 2) + (Caster’s DEX / 3) is less than B value, (Random number between 30 ~ 150) + Difficulty rate
1. If A value is 30+ greater than B value, creates 10 ~ 12 Foods.
2. If A value is 10+ greater than B value, creates 10 Foods.
3. If A value is exactly 10 less than B value, creates 8 Foods.
4. If A value is 30+ less than B value, creates 5 Foods.
5. If A value is 50+ less than B value, Food creation fails.


It's viable to output a decent amount of items with a PvM build that includes LUK (although it requires heavy support; both from an AB, and ideally a marionette controller as well). Should also note that if you get this, it's best to get it at level 2 — not only does it cook ten dishes at once, but it has the likelihood of producing as much as eleven or twelve items per only the ten sets of ingredients, which level 1 can't do.

As for item sling, I don't think bombs have a practical use in PvM... as Azzy mentioned, he uses banana bombs, which cause the target to sit for 3 seconds (unless attacked before the duration expires), and drops their luk by 20 for the duration as well. I tested item sling with bombs temporarily in the past, and I didn't notice any effects besides damage on the monsters. I wouldn't say I tested it thoroughly, though. You can still pitch other gene-related items to party members. Just know you'll have to hotkey various thrown items to switch between them quickly enough, as item sling tosses whatever you have equipped.

Anyway, what ShiveringShadows posted is good. You can go without item appraisal, but it's a good point for the lazy person who doesn't want to carry magnifiers around. Pot Research works like swordman's passive hp recovery, boosting heal rate of consumed potions, for example. If you solo MVP, you'll be tanking a lot, so maxing this skill helps a bunch. You might be able to drop aid potion at some point entirely... I feel as if people in your party should be stocking their own SP items, but I've had occasions of pitching blues to the friend who couldn't really afford them. Up to you.

I'd recommend blood sucker at level 1 (at least), for the malaya MVPs. They've all got instances of "enemies" that have plant-type def (1 dmg per attack), and bloodsucker bypasses this. Gets through second stage of Bakonawa quickly, prevents Bangungot from ever resurrecting, and quickly gets you out of Buwaya's chest (which he'll toss you into several times).

Anyway, just to drop it down here, this is what my gene currently has:
http://irowiki.org/~...AqSrbkal1bgKIn1
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#52 CeruleanGamer

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 06:04 AM

30m isn't that much for 150ing an homun, 300m was lol. But I'll try to lvl more and get homun res lvl 5


Well, it would make leveling 10x faster and you don't have to come back to your linker just to get the alchy spirit. Isn't it annoying trying to teleport back to your linker when ur spirit expired and you see a giant mob? <<
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#53 Joaco

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 07:42 AM

Well, it would make leveling 10x faster and you don't have to come back to your linker just to get the alchy spirit. Isn't it annoying trying to teleport back to your linker when ur spirit expired and you see a giant mob? <<

LOL! Hell yes! D:!
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#54 Joaco

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 05:32 PM

Summon Flora boosts Hell Plant's level. If you're going to get Hell Plant, you should get Summon Flora too.



As far as I know, you can't polymorph an MVP and you can't polymorph a normal monster into an MVP. You can, however, turn a normal monster into an MVP with the hocus pocus skill. Though, the chance of this happening is very very low.



Mainly, yes. It also has a limited area of effect compared to Coluseo Heal. But still, the others are incorrect in saying that it is completely useless. It does have some use, albeit a limited one. You can use it to heal several party members at once, but the long cast time and limited area of effect does make it less useful in emergency situations.

If you had to choose between Full Chemical Protection and Aid Condensed Potion, Full Chemical Protection would be the wiser choice, especially for MvP purposes. Generally, people choose either Aid Condensed Potion level 10 or Full Chemical Protection level 5, not both. The remaining skill points are better spend, for skills like Potion Research, as DrAzzy suggested.



As far as I know, Demonic Fire level 5 does not boost the damage of Fire Expansion level 5. Only level 1 and 2 of Fire Expansion is boosted by the level of Demonic Fire.



I believe this would be the bare essentials for battling MvPs:
http://irowiki.org/~...FqsGBdAqsqn7In1

please correct me if I'm wrong.

I didn't know about the Summon Flora - Hell Plant thing.
I can't hocus pocus mobs, I don't have any sorc. I just didn't understand the idea of why did he say that if geneticist doesn't have that skill.
And about that skill tree, it seems to be right but you have a ton of skill points to use, I just did the same with the difference I spent those points on skills I saw useful (they may not be).

Well, back when I was leveling my gene, I had hell plant at a point... and I couldn't find any practical use for it in PvM. It's a good skill in WoE for various reasons (I think it bypasses reductions to some extent... it's certainly not ranged like AB and CC are, so I figure it'd do more damage. Need a WoE gene to confirm this, though), but it's pretty much not worth using on a single target monster when you can just bomb or cannon them.

As for what Exvee meant, is you can transform cultivated plants/shrooms by use of azoth dagger and or hylozoist accessories. Sage's hocus pocus skill has a chance of giving you control of a targetable skill (which is labeled as ????, IIRC... but four skills or so share this trait in name) that can transform any monster into a random boss monster.

Aid Condensed Potion has quite an aftercast delay, actually — something that wasn't present in pre-renewal, which was part of why the skill was pretty decent. Also, considering how much HP third classes get, the heal rate in ratio to that is abysmal. High priests had no AoE heal and such, so this skill was a nice heal back then. But with bishops having coluseo to heal the entire party (even through walls), and boosted heal rates from their gears and all that, aid condensed is seriously just a total waste of points. The delay on it is easily the worst part, though.

Y'know, a lot of genes get vending and all... and that's fine. I kept it at 8 (and I'm dropping it later) on my gene, because I have two vendors on other accounts to sell the junk I need.

Demonic fire does incredibly poor damage, so it's not worth boosting it above the lvl3 prereq. Although, the duration of the skill might couple with fire expansion levels 1 to 4, but I've never actually tested them. Level 4 FE looks like it'd be interesting to use against ghost-type MVPs as support in a party (assuming it even works on them). Most PvM genes utilize just FE lvl5, though, as it's an AoE AB. The level of the DF put down has no effect on FE 5's damage, and hence why getting it maxed could be considered a waste.

As for Mixed Cooking...


It's viable to output a decent amount of items with a PvM build that includes LUK (although it requires heavy support; both from an AB, and ideally a marionette controller as well). Should also note that if you get this, it's best to get it at level 2 — not only does it cook ten dishes at once, but it has the likelihood of producing as much as eleven or twelve items per only the ten sets of ingredients, which level 1 can't do.

As for item sling, I don't think bombs have a practical use in PvM... as Azzy mentioned, he uses banana bombs, which cause the target to sit for 3 seconds (unless attacked before the duration expires), and drops their luk by 20 for the duration as well. I tested item sling with bombs temporarily in the past, and I didn't notice any effects besides damage on the monsters. I wouldn't say I tested it thoroughly, though. You can still pitch other gene-related items to party members. Just know you'll have to hotkey various thrown items to switch between them quickly enough, as item sling tosses whatever you have equipped.

Anyway, what ShiveringShadows posted is good. You can go without item appraisal, but it's a good point for the lazy person who doesn't want to carry magnifiers around. Pot Research works like swordman's passive hp recovery, boosting heal rate of consumed potions, for example. If you solo MVP, you'll be tanking a lot, so maxing this skill helps a bunch. You might be able to drop aid potion at some point entirely... I feel as if people in your party should be stocking their own SP items, but I've had occasions of pitching blues to the friend who couldn't really afford them. Up to you.

I'd recommend blood sucker at level 1 (at least), for the malaya MVPs. They've all got instances of "enemies" that have plant-type def (1 dmg per attack), and bloodsucker bypasses this. Gets through second stage of Bakonawa quickly, prevents Bangungot from ever resurrecting, and quickly gets you out of Buwaya's chest (which he'll toss you into several times).

Anyway, just to drop it down here, this is what my gene currently has:
http://irowiki.org/~...AqSrbkal1bgKIn1

So I shouldn't put Hell Plant if I'm going to be mvp build.. About Azoth and that other card I see it useless since I they transform it to another mob, not an mvp haha.
I thought Demonic Fire lvl 5 was a nice AoE skill, I saw a genet using it in a TI map, and it was nice damage, but well, I may be wrong and it could be a shtty skill.
About mixed cooking, I don't think I'll have LUK at all, just high int and dex. Does it really worth to cook without luk? I mean, if I use lvl 2, will I be getting the 10 foods? Base stats will prolly be 100 int and 90 dex.
By "pitching other gene-related items to party members" you mean throwing them items like hp increase pot, sp increase pot, vitata500 and that kind of stuff, right? I think that would be useful
So, you're saying that I should drop Aid Pot to 0? If I do that I should put homun Res up to 5, I mean, I won't be able to heal him.
Well, to sum up, I preffer Item Appraisal than vending 9. This are the skills that should fit for a mvp genet http://irowiki.org/~...BdAqsqnjNl3eIn1 and have 19 genet skill points left and 1 biochem left. I put Homun res 1 because I'll prolly need lvl 5 just for now that I'm leveling him, after I 150'd him I don't think I will need to ress him with full hp, I'll only use Pyro and Amistr Bulwark lol.
That biochem missing point can be put in cultive plant lvl (not sure if it's useful) or maybe vending 9? lol
And for those genet missing points I'd say Change Material and Item Sling (2 points) and if worth it to cook with the stats I put above I'd max Special Pharmacy and Mixed Cooking, and if needed for mvping Blood Sucker 1 ~ 5. If I put lvl 5 I'd have 4 more points to spend. What do you think?
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#55 Kasmalisus

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 08:18 PM

Replies in blue.

I didn't know about the Summon Flora - Hell Plant thing.
I can't hocus pocus mobs, I don't have any sorc. I just didn't understand the idea of why did he say that if geneticist doesn't have that skill.
A WoE gene is very strict on skills, because it uses practically three entire branches of skils in war.
Eg. Astraeos's suggestive WoE build: http://irowiki.org/~...qsrdbxafqnadIn1

And about that skill tree, it seems to be right but you have a ton of skill points to use, I just did the same with the difference I spent those points on skills I saw useful (they may not be).

So I shouldn't put Hell Plant if I'm going to be mvp build.. About Azoth and that other card I see it useless since I they transform it to another mob, not an mvp haha.
I thought Demonic Fire lvl 5 was a nice AoE skill, I saw a genet using it in a TI map, and it was nice damage, but well, I may be wrong and it could be a shtty skill.
I've never seen DF do damage that's worth writing home about. You can either use a 50k~ consumable to damage enemies slowly and weakly, or use CC; a much stronger AoE that consumes a catalyst thats only 250~500 a pop.

About mixed cooking, I don't think I'll have LUK at all, just high int and dex. Does it really worth to cook without luk? I mean, if I use lvl 2, will I be getting the 10 foods? Base stats will prolly be 100 int and 90 dex.
To be honest? I'm not sure if you really ought to bother without some sort of LUK. But if you use a 120-luk performer with MC, and a bishop along with food buffs, you could probably still get decent output. I'd only bother with it if you can actually successfully create enough foods to profit decently off of it (this taking into account of actually buying the materials, or getting them from investing). To know for sure, you'd have to test on Sakray... which is currently down until we get ninja expansion (later this month, supposedly).
As for the lvl2 skill, it attempts to create ten dishes at once. If your success rate is high enough, it can give you up to two extra items out of the set of ten. You can still fail to create any dishes at all, and lose all ten sets of ingredients.

By "pitching other gene-related items to party members" you mean throwing them items like hp increase pot, sp increase pot, vitata500 and that kind of stuff, right? I think that would be useful
Yeah.

So, you're saying that I should drop Aid Pot to 0? If I do that I should put homun Res up to 5, I mean, I won't be able to heal him.
Pretty much; you won't even find aid slim useful in PvM. lol.
Hom res would be good. As a PvM gene, you're not too hard-pressed for skills like a WoE one, so you could use some gene points to max the hom res skill.

Well, to sum up, I preffer Item Appraisal than vending 9. This are the skills that should fit for a mvp genet http://irowiki.org/~...BdAqsqnjNl3eIn1 and have 19 genet skill points left and 1 biochem left. I put Homun res 1 because I'll prolly need lvl 5 just for now that I'm leveling him, after I 150'd him I don't think I will need to ress him with full hp, I'll only use Pyro and Amistr Bulwark lol.
That biochem missing point can be put in cultive plant lvl (not sure if it's useful) or maybe vending 9? lol
Nah, don't bother with plant cult. If you want p.spores without spending zeny, you can go north, and then east of Geffen — there are so many poison spore enemies on the map you can get several hundred in no time.
Might as well toss it into res, or vending. Whichever you prefer.

And for those genet missing points I'd say Change Material and Item Sling (2 points) and if worth it to cook with the stats I put above I'd max Special Pharmacy and Mixed Cooking, and if needed for mvping Blood Sucker 1 ~ 5. If I put lvl 5 I'd have 4 more points to spend. What do you think?
Blood sucker is only needed at 1. I mean, you could max it, but I wouldn't recommend it. You'd only be healing about 200~ per blood sucker if you were trying to slightly leech off an MVP while tanking. You could argue that it may be possible that boost in HP recovery could barely save your life, but if you aren't tanking an MVP well to begin with, you probably shouldn't be fighting it.

You can make your gene a pseudo-brewer like I did, but you ought to test when Sakray goes back up before finalizing your skill build.


Edited by Kasmalisus, 10 January 2013 - 08:19 PM.

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#56 DrAzzy

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 09:01 PM

You need bloodsucker for some instances (because it lets you 1-shot things with plant def, like the gongs+cauldrons for bakonawa, or the weaknesses for buwaya, or the pillar for bangungot, or the garden keepers in okolnir if you're lucky enough to get to do that).

It's a good thing to have.

And yeah, aid condensed potion just takes so long to cast... you'd almost have been better off spending that time aid-potting people normally.
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#57 Joaco

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 06:43 PM

Okay then, this should be fine http://irowiki.org/~...AqsqojNl1oaeIn1 and still have 13 points to spend.
I could put:
-Mammonite: not useful for high lvl genet, it's just good for lvling a low lvl merch/high merch (just my thought, correct me if I'm wrong)
-Max Vending (two points)
-Axe Mastery
-Cultivate Plant (not good as you guys clarified me)
-Summon Marine Sphere
-Summon Flora
-Max Prepare Potion (5 points): not useful since I'm not a brewer
-Aid Condensed Pot (you said it's bad cause of its cast and the area affected is too small compared to Colo Heal)
-Max Speacial Pharmacy (6 points): meh, if I'm not gonna brew or make food I don't see it a good use.
-Mixed Cooking: same as above
-Bomb Creation
-Thorn Trap (good at woe only)
-Thorn Wall (woe only)
-Crazy Vines (woe only)
-Max Blood Sucker (you said the lvl needed is juts 1)
-Hell Plant (not good for pvm/mvp)
-Mandragora Howl (woe only)
-Cart Tornado
-Max Spore Explosion
-Max Demonic Fire (you said it's a bad aoe)
-Sword Mastery (doesn't affect AB damage)

So, where do you think I should spend those 13 points x.x
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#58 Exvee

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 04:12 PM

Honestly, semi-brewing is not total waste. Potion Research+Prepare Potion gives 40% success rate before added stat and look I can made few own bottles to save money. Special Pharmacy only matters skill level and few stats to increase amount, you won't even fail to create stuff from them. Lv 10 can give 3-4 items while lv 4 and lower only give 2, sure it's better to make 300 blood sucker compared to 200 blood sucker right?
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#59 Joaco

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 05:31 PM

Well, I don't really need to make them on my own, I can make the bombs on another genet (a friend of mine) or simply buy them (it's better to make them lol). And I also could buy those blood sucker or whatever Special Pharmacy makes. Lol
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#60 Joaco

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 02:32 AM

Okay, we changed the main topic that was about Dieter and his awesome skill Magma Flow lol, I'll make another thread for the genetic skills later. My Dieter reached 135 and has like hmm 30-40% atm. The spotlight is still on, so I shoudl take advantage of it, I don't think it will be implemented again in a near future D:!
I hope I get 150 after next maint on Tuesday, but well, since there's this new event for 1-50, I gotta lvl some alts and prolly rebirth them if possible. I will try to lvl this bad boy. Reaching 140 is not that far lol, at least some lvl between 145-150 should be fine lol.
Btw, Pyroclastic + Magma Flow is the -_-! Love it.
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#61 Joaco

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 03:03 AM

My dieter reached 147 today, I hope I can get to 150 before tuesday maint, took me like 5 hours from 143 to 147, worth it lol. I still didn't get homun res 5 because I was not doing TI's, so I just lvl'ed him with aid pots and afk lvling at OD2. Almost there *-*
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#62 Joaco

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 12:19 PM

Okay, it was damn hard at first but then it turned out easy mode.. so I finally reached 150!!!!
Posted Image

FKING LOVE IT!
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#63 DrAzzy

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 12:32 PM

Grats!

So now, no need to get homun res 5 :-)
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#64 Joaco

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 01:17 PM

Lol, yeah. But it's already at 3 XD
Thanks for the help everyone that posted on this thread, for talking about dieter/geneticist skills lol. Thanks a lot!
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#65 Exvee

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 12:34 AM

What's your base? Your SP just lower than my Amistr base lol... Although SP doesn't matter on vanil and amistr base...

Edited by Exvee, 31 January 2013 - 12:35 AM.

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#66 Joaco

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 04:53 PM

It's an Amistr>Dieter, how much sp does yours have?
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#67 Exvee

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 06:05 PM

It's an Amistr>Dieter, how much sp does yours have?


Posted Image

but as I said Amistr->Dieter won't consume 200 SP+ per skill except spamming castling lulz...
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