16 replies to this topic

[Akihiro]

Well, Heim said that we need to be specific about our suggestions on balancing, and so I will.

First off, I think it would be best if you removed the fixed cast time of ALL of these skills completely, as in, they're able to reach instant cast with enough stat points:

- Arrow Vulcan - The only offensive skill Minstrel and Gypsy gets, and it's their only really powerful skill. Why make it useless by giving it a fixed cast time?
- Throw Spirit Sphere - The fixed casting on this skill is ridiculous, no one even wants to go spirit build anymore with how slow this skill is.
- Occult Impaction - Defense in renewal sucks now, so this skill does the same damage to just about all monsters, which is quite low. Why give it a fixed cast time?
- Wind Walker - It's a buff. Why does this need a fixed cast time at all? Snipers are known to have instant or near instant cast, and it never imbalanced the class. It won't now.
- Focused Arrow Strike - This skill is meant for mobbing, and sniper is a solo class. Why should this skill have a fixed cast? It's near useless when it has one.
- Falcon Assault - Sniper skill, shouldn't have much of a fixed cast time.
- Ganbeitan - This skill really does become absolutely useless with the huge fixed cast time put on it. The skill was meant to be a fast acting skill to pick at Magnetic earth and such, but now it's way too slow to do anything.

My justification for all this is that if I recall, jRO has it set that the only classes that have skills with fixed cast time were the third classes. The fixed cast time on these specific skills really ruin the usability of the skill, and I believe we would all be a lot better off if the fixed cast times were removed from these completely. I purposefully didn't put down any wizard skills because after trying a wizard I find that they're quite okay, and wouldn't really need adjustment, minus the high wizard skill Ganbeitan. I also left out Zen because well, that skill really does slightly balance out Guillotine fist and some sura skills.

Thoughts on this?

Edited by Akihiro, 17 October 2010 - 03:35 AM.

[Trixdee]

Excellent thread Akihiro

I am really upset about this yes. I actually would rather go back to the old formulas where classes could shine in a specific aspect. I don't see how this supposed to be such a great Renewal when no class is allowed to have that ONE aspect that makes people want to play them due to burdensome and in some cases unneeded nerfs. And do not give me this song and dance about what you see as the over speed of skills being an unintended side effect of flawed mechanics of your making, not mine. Instead of dealing with each class fairly you turn everyone's char in it's own way into a one legged man in an a-_-kicking contest. Yes, maybe the formulas were flawed from the beginning but so is the way the flaws years later are being dealt with.

To me these class nerfs would be the equivalent to the following.

It's not fair that men can naturally build bigger muscles than women! NERF!
It's not fair that women can have babies but men can't! NERF!
Hey! He has longer legs than me so it's too easy for him to run faster! So Gravity did the equivalent of cutting off one of his legs, tieing a 20 pound dumbell on the other and tossing him into the ocean.

Sounds pretty ridiculous doesn't it? Well that is pretty much what you are doing. It's too easy for archer class to naturally build high dex therefore instant skill use speed! NERF!

The archer class should not be punished just because they can naturally have high dex, they are meant to use skills faster than wizards it is not unfair. Just like men are not mean and unfair just because of the natural composition of their bodies. These archer class nerfs such as AV and FAS nerfs are not well thought out or justifiable at all!

Edited by Trixdee, 23 October 2010 - 06:37 AM.

[Elly]

I agree that all the above skills shouldn't have a fixed time, or at least a shorter fixed cast time. Arrow vulcan really sucks when you need to cast it even slower than a wizard casts storm gust

[Clogon]

The problem is not just the fixed casting of Arrow Vulcan. It only has 0.57 fixed casting. It is the fact that it the casting time formula is a Square Root formula and that AV has a total casting time of 3.8s only 0.57s of it is fixed.

The stats portion of the casting time formula is:
(1 - SQRT((Dex * 2 + Int) / 530))

With 150 dex and 50 int you will have:
(1 - SQRT((150 * 2 + 50) / 530))
(1 - SQRT((350) / 530))
1-0.81
19% variable casting time

Total casting time is then:
0.57+(3.8-0.57)*0.19 = 1.18s

Even if you remove all fixed casting time you will get:
3.8*0.19 = 0.7s casting time


As you can see though it will help it won't to remove the fixed casting time it will not help by much if total casting time doesn't change too.

Edited by Clogon, 17 October 2010 - 05:15 AM.

[Akihiro]

The problem is not just the fixed casting of Arrow Vulcan. It only has 0.57 fixed casting. It is the fact that it the casting time formula is a Square Root formula and that AV has a total casting time of 3.8s only 0.57s of it is fixed.

The stats portion of the casting time formula is:
(1 - SQRT((Dex * 2 + Int) / 530))

With 150 dex and 50 int you will have:
(1 - SQRT((150 * 2 + 50) / 530))
(1 - SQRT((350) / 530))
1-0.81
19% variable casting time

Total casting time is then:
0.57+(3.8-0.57)*0.19 = 1.18s

Even if you remove all fixed casting time you will get:
3.8*0.19 = 0.7s casting time


As you can see though it will help it won't to remove the fixed casting time it will not help by much if total casting time doesn't change too.

Yes but that's not all that bad. Sure it won't be instant, but the stats you give are a bare minimum for anything over 9x. Even if it won't be instant, it will be -usable-, which is the whole point. I highly doubt we can get the GMs to change it to a complete instant cast, but with this it's possible to convince them.

[Sully7]

Clogon do you have the equations for any of the other skills too by any chance?

[Kiryu]

I'm pretty pissed about AV, but didn't know about the other characters... I was thinking of doing a spirit monk/champ/sura int he future but if it sucks as hard >.> we are in =censored= v.v... I guess we are lucky we have Fs priest who are gonna get sacrament =S

[Trixdee]

Dear Gravity,

Can you hear us? Are you listening? Are you willing to be fair? Or do we need to be louder?

Edited by Trixdee, 17 October 2010 - 05:33 PM.

[Makk]

AV needs it for sure. Heck, I'm still trying to figure out the purpose of having Preserve not just be instant cast or at least not so God awfully slow.

Edited by Makk, 17 October 2010 - 10:44 PM.

[LanieStyle]

I'm pretty pissed about AV, but didn't know about the other characters... I was thinking of doing a spirit monk/champ/sura int he future but if it sucks as hard >.> we are in =censored= v.v... I guess we are lucky we have Fs priest who are gonna get sacrament =S

ab doesn't even get sacrament until like lv 120 or 130. and it's only 10% off of fixed casting time (half).

if they don't make av nearly instacast (like how it was around 135 total dex, there's no way i'm going to use it)

[ItalianChild]

yes i totally agree that skills listed above should have a faster cast time rather than it being how it is. I mean AV? geeze thats supposed to be a quick flurry of arrows launched at a target... geeze now with AV being how it is..it just creates another useless skill in the skill tree that no one will use...

btw... i feel some skills that are not implemented on iRO should be removed from the damn skill tree, or if not, implement them~

[Kadelia]

I have like 2 threads already about AV sucking in Renewal. Why not another, hehe.

Our gms claimed to have buffed AV from 0.76 second fixed at lvl 10 to 0.36.

So, uhh, yeah. My recommendation at this point is:

Fixed Cast + Variable Cast = Time to cast the skill if -80% variable cast (i.e. ~150 dex, ~50 int)
Was: 0.76 + 3.04 = 1.37
Current: 0.36 + 3.44 = 1.05
Should be: 0 + 1.9 = 0.38

With my suggested bit, we're looking at

Fresh Minstrel or Gypsy level 67/20 or so with about 120 DEX 30 INT
0.47 second

99/70 char with 160 dex and 80 int buffed
0.24 second

150/50 Wanderer/Maestro with 170 DEX and 110 INT buffed
0.14 second

Unrealstic but possible Wanderer/Maestro with insanely good stats form gear and buffs and whatnot (190 DEX, 150 INT)
Instant Cast!!

[Elly]

Please GM team Fix Arrow Vulcan for real !

[Akihiro]

Thanks for the input, Kaddy. Heim says they have something related to the fixed cast time stuff in the works...wonder how that'll turn out.

[Kadelia]

Throw Spirit Spheres should be like 0.75 sec fixed time and like 2.5 sec floating/variable time. That way with a full dex build we're looking at ~1.5 sec cast.

Occult should be fixed cast 0.5 seconds with no floating time imo

Focused Arrow Strike needs 0 second fixed cast time and 1.5 second floating or so.

Falcon Assault... 0.3 seconds fixed + 1.7 seconds floating.

wind walker maybe 0 seconds fixed plus 2 seconds floating.

Edited by Jaye, 21 October 2010 - 07:27 AM.

[Doddler]

Throw Spirit Spheres should be like 0.75 sec fixed time and like 2.5 sec floating/variable time. That way with a full dex build we're looking at ~1.5 sec cast.

Occult should be fixed cast 0.5 seconds with no floating time imo

I thought both of these were 0.5s/0.5s? Maybe my info was wrong.

[Kadelia]

throw spheres atm is about 6 seconds cast time. 0.5/0.5 would be pretty usable, though zen is a hurdle here.

Edited by Jaye, 21 October 2010 - 11:19 AM.