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A Call to un"dwarf" ninja! Show your support please!


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#1 Cmoota

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 12:39 PM

Okay alot of people are away of the crippling nerfs that have taken place with Ninja Kagerou and Oboro classes, but one particular note that effects ninja no matter what kind of build you have are the first job skills that ninja has.
-Naturally as a result of all the incredible nerfs that have taken place it is very difficult to lvl or even be of much use in a party as a result of this nerf. Magic Ninja's abilities are slow and sluggish and even with the aid of "16th night" wich you have to wait til it runs out to refresh it I might add doesnt exactly help the problem. Magic Ninja damage is good but the nerf on casting speed that has been in place cripples an unexpanded 1rst job ninja's ability to lvl propperly.
- Cicada Skin shed can help out in the regard of avoiding your cast being interrupted against one enemy sure, but it wont help against a mob and casting speed is just way too slow. Slow casting and lack of propper magic gear causes Magic Ninja to be very pathetic and difficult to lvl as you cant really rely on daggers for decent magic attack unless you really upgrade them!
-Ninja's are naturally squishy and their hp doesn't even go up even when they turn Oboro/Kagerou So the nerf on throw ninja makes no sense at all! Throw Ninja "was" pretty much the only way a ninja could really lvl since the casting time nerfs as magic ninja's failed in the regard of casting very fast or dealing alot of damage. Heres an example of a few nerfs throw ninja suffered:
--- >> lvling skill Throw Kunai<<---
On an enemy "effected by the element of the kunai": If the damage was around 30k its now 3k or 6k damage a hit. very crippling for a throw type upper Ninja since they need that skill too!
--->>Swirling Petals<<-- (And also applies to Explosive Kunai)
Delay after use extended. this is another very crippling slam to Throw type Ninja and needs to be addressed that if your going to add retard delay it naturally follows that you add retard damage since these skills leave Oboro/Kagerou Vulnerable for an extended period of time AND most enemies it the upper difficulties would SCOFF at the damage they do with those skills.
--->>Explosive Kunai<<---
from a 5x5 Area of effect to a 3x3. I wasn't aware explosions were so small! But considering that on other servers thats how it was then makes sense. but still the delay bites bad even when you can technically abuse "Illusion shadow" wich occasionally gets ignored when enemies get HIT by it or swirling petals.

I can pretty much sum up what happened to ninja in a very short sentence. butchered. ruined. too squishy. too much in need of gears that are either TOO EXPENSIVE, not applied to the game, or cannot equip. Spells too slow and weak to use them practically, Throw skills simply too weak or too slow to use effectively.

Ninja status: Too squishy, too weak even with evade skills, too slow with spell type skills now... Wheel chair crippled basically. went from a decent and fun class to just a fanboy and dead class

Oboro/Kagerou status: Endangered of dying out as a result of their lesser selves being nerfed so harshly

Support the unnerfing of ninja! give us at least HALF of what you took away! At least! and GM's please look at this!

For the sake of newer generations of Ninja's to come, please support this! Oh and support baby extended jobs like Baby Ninja ect! *-*
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#2 Cmoota

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 12:57 PM

Oh and list of possible buffs for Ninja job:

30% increase in casting speed all around for ninja spells

Return throw Kunai to the way it was before it got nerfed or at least 2/3rds of its former glory

Reduce delay of Swirling Petals and Kunai Explosion/ Or increase damage of both

Remember, Ninja class does NOT benifit from its 2nd job skills til it changes jobs at around 99/70 and even then they have to actually LVL at that stage so even THEN they still heavily rely on 1rst job skills when other third jobbers are having an easy time!

So the skills like Pure Soul, Earth,Fire,Ice,Wind Charms, 16th night "for casting speed and more Matk" Do not apply to a ninja til well around Oboro/Kagerou job lvl 10ish or 15ish. By nerfing Ninja so much you kill Ninja survivability rate resulting in easy exp loss even for VIPs resulting in the death of the job all together.
As it is now after the nerf its not that fun anymore and the class is quite stressful. I still love Ninja just so you know, but it needs to be fixed badly!

Edited by Cmoota, 13 April 2013 - 01:03 PM.

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#3 Hasyim

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 08:54 PM

bump... but don't make it too OP... and dont destroy them like now... I WANT MY MELEE NINJA BACK! XD

bump... but don't make it too OP... and dont destroy them like now... I WANT MY MELEE NINJA BACK! XD
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#4 sb120495

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 08:56 PM

kRO had these changes for a very long time.Obviously they have no intention of changing it.
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#5 Bes7iA

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 06:54 AM

i have been playing for a very short time so i cannot afford any kind of equipment aside from the ones you get from quests

i stop playing like 2 months ago, and now i wanted to resume
and just find that im stuck at lvl 88

and i cant do more than 1300-1400 to kaphas with wind kunais
and 2 months ago i was doing 8400-8600 to them

i do not even want to think of going somwhere else to kill something else

i cant kill anithyng, so i guess i will be stuck in there for ever
i cant play with my ninja anymore
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#6 Scuba

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 11:52 AM

KE needs the AoE back to normal. Hitting a mob in a 3x3 from range distance isn't practical. Rolling Cutter used to be 3x3 and that made sense because the mobs naturally formed in that area because it was melee distance. Even that was increased to 5x5. Mechanic has a similar AoE as KE. 3x3 at max level arm cannon. However lower levels have increased range (always seemed backwards to me). Also it makes sense for it to be small because mobs will naturally form around the mechanic in a small enough area to target well enough.

Throw Kunai has been fundamentally wrecked. There was the initial problem where anyone with an eden knife could 1 shot their way to 99 (which tbh i don't really care about 1-99 isn't an accomplishment). Now even with a multi billion zeny weapon it won't hit more than 5k (as a ninja). I've heard it was applying elemental advantage twice. Which may be true, but I recall hitting elders for around 6k and they're neutral / large. They should fix the elemental multiplier and increase the base damage multiplier and that way high end weapons would actually prove advantageous to eden gear.

I understand the long fixed cast time on Ninjas. It gives you a reason to get 16th Night. That really powers up magic Ninjas big time. As it stands Magic ninja is probably the best way to go from 118 to 150. Getting to 118 is the hard part as the last reasonable monster to kill is Dark Priests. After that dual weilding magic daggers + Distorted Crescent + charms + 16th Night 150ing a magic ninja should take like 12 hours.

I hold Ninja to the same standard as a trans character. As it does not have the benefit of transcending it needs to be somewhere between 2nd class and trans class. And it fit there well. Ninja can't EDP, Bowling Bash, Amp SG, Buff parties, Tank, MVP (well), or HSCR but it can single target kill some level 90+ monsters. And to me that is fine. Hunters used to be able to do that with landmine, which was also unfairly nerfed. I hold Kagerou and Oboro to the same standard as any 150. You need to be able to kill high level monsters plain and simple. K/O wont 1 shot like arrow storm, they wont dps like cart cannon. The wont drop mobs like dragon breath, but they should be in the middleground. They are mostly offensive characters so their offense should at least chunk the monsters HP, especially since they can't use a shield if they want to do good damage.
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#7 rinlen02

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 09:57 PM

I don't have a ninja myself, but I support this. They need to show more love to the expanded classes!
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#8 NatoKenichi

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 02:27 PM

I hope you guys can get the Ninja class fixed !
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#9 Kadelia

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 02:49 PM

Ninja class isn't broken. It is balanced with other 1st/second jobs.

I hold Ninja to the same standard as a trans character. As it does not have the benefit of transcending it needs to be somewhere between 2nd class and trans class. And it fit there well. Ninja can't EDP, Bowling Bash, Amp SG, Buff parties, Tank, MVP (well), or HSCR but it can single target kill some level 90+ monsters.


They have the same exp table as a Assassin-- they don't need to level any faster than an assassin.

Comparing their kill speed to an Assassin Cross (EDP) that needs 2x the EXP to level is outright senseless and thoughtless.

Edited by Jaye, 09 May 2013 - 02:53 PM.

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#10 Facekiller

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 05:08 PM

wait assassin cross can level to 150? when did that happen? throw kunais damage wasnt really that OP at higher levels... the damage doesnt scale well with level... and really who friggen cares if you can kill monsters fast with a single target skill? whats the harm? its not like people were using it to wipe guilds in WoE or pvp...
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#11 evilsagato

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 05:55 PM

i read all what jade wrote about the ninja and i still dont understand why jade insist that the ninjas are OP just because they used to kill one hit some monsters, like facekiller said, is just one monster, other chars are more OP and they are still there, and why i have to play other char if what i want to play is my oboro?, is really sad that gravity make a lot of noise about the ninja update, videos etc, and 2 months later they become useless and nobody want to play them anymore, then you should't updated the ninja to something new and useless :p_sad: :sob:
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#12 Facekiller

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 06:13 PM

Jaye's GEARS are OP... if you are using God items and overupgraded OP gears ANY skill will be OP... not everybody is that fortunate... not everybody is running around with RWC gears and God Items and using +11 HBP... people like that dont care about average players... they are only out for themselves
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#13 Kadelia

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 11:29 AM

Tell yourself whatever you want.

Throw Kunai is better % modifier damage than a bash or mammonite with better range and SP cost and elemental flexibility regardless if you're using an eden dagger I or a +99 mega-death-claw of vorpal evisceration. :)
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#14 Facekiller

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 06:19 PM

ill tell you what... give me all you zeny and gears and remake your ninja and start from scratch... i wont even keep the stuff you give me... ill give it all away to other players... this isnt about the top players in the server this is about basic-average players not being able to level... quit giving people false information.... and quit comparing 2nd classes to K/O classes... no other second class character has to level to 150.... the fact that the damage doesnt scale with level is the point.... without billions of dollars worth of gear youre not going to be killing the monsters you need at level 140-150... you wanna help people tell them exactly what gears they can use (assume they are starting new to the server) and what skills they should use.... then give each area for them to level and what skills to use.... oh and party play doesnt count so it has to be soloable... then maybe somebody will take you seriously...
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#15 Kadelia

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 11:02 AM

I can make an assassin and a Ninja at the same speed. Ninja isn't unfairly weak.

And no amount of gears speeds up ninja leveling speed but does not improve an assassin's. In the words of one Hank Hill, "Use your god dang head."

Quit giving people false information and quit whining. You level by grinding on weak monsters or you level in turn ins. Its the same with a poorly equipped alchemist or dancer and its the same with a ninja. Give it a rest. You're just QQing with no information behind what you say.

I can compare 2nd classes to Ninja all I want because they have the same bleeping EXP table and the same end goal, level 99. That you are considering them different leads me to believe you've hit your head pretty hard at some point and need a hospital rather than a forum to ooze nonsense onto. Once you become a K/O you have powerful magic builds, an awesome 2 handed sword dagger build with +90% weapon ATK from a charm that takes 1 skill point to master, and the powerful explosive kunai skill which does 20k+ damage at level 100. K/O is the one that levels to 150, not Ninja, so you can stop looking at [throw kunai] when thinking about the climb to 150.

Edited by Jaye, 12 May 2013 - 11:06 AM.

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#16 Facekiller

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 11:40 AM

you seem to be the ONLY person who doesnt have a problem with the way they have changed ninja damage... so maybe there really IS a problem and youre issues with the way they were have to do with issues in your own head....
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#17 Kadelia

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 12:03 PM

Look, the damage was changed. Its lower. Its sad. QQ. It was uber before and now its only about par with other classes that have the same exp requirements and end goal. That's called game balance. You'll get over it.

However, you've actually inspired me. I've started making some RO Replays (which I may record somehow... and voice over...) showing me leveling from novice to Oboro with no gears other than what I earn during the play. I just recordedthe first 30 minute RO-replay where I do the jobchange quest and the first Eden quest for gears.

Edited by Jaye, 12 May 2013 - 12:03 PM.

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#18 Facekiller

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 12:19 PM

well maybe it will actually help people... but remember people will tear you apart if you start using BMx3s and other things to help you level faster than normal server rates... not everybody has VIP or money for kafra shop...
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#19 Kadelia

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 02:17 PM

I'm doing it on an account that doesn't have VIP or KP. Try to remember for a minute I am an experienced player that has done this game for 8 years and I can do this in my sleep without the "perks" you seem to think define me.
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#20 Facekiller

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 03:05 PM

im not attacking you personally...but try and remember back to what it was like in the beginning... my issue isnt for me even (i do just fine myself) but its about the less experienced players who get frustrated by the game and quit... i agree the damage was a little ridiculous but halving that damage would have been enough to make all parties happy... im actually noticing skills like shadow slash damage has been nerfed... was doing 5k per strike now only doing 2-3k... so many things got changed that didnt need changing... the aoe from kunai explosion wouldnt even be an issue for most if it didnt have a cast time... there are ALOT of things now "broken" with the class that didnt need to be changed... all im asking is see it from a new players perspective... ninja classes were a draw for alot of players (most games dont have a ninja class) and then they get in game and realize that they are really just dodgy mages and are disappointed...
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#21 Ramen

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 03:10 PM

My main complaint is that kRO made Expanded Classes in the first place if all they intended was for them to be a gimmick, or some kind of distraction. I would like to think that the original goal had been to bring new classes into the game that would be viable, and would change the dynamics of the game to make it overall more interesting and enjoyable. If that wasn't the goal, it just doesn't make sense to waste the money and resources to create them in the first place.

That's why I made the suggestions that I did in my thread regarding Ninjas. Everything I suggested would actually make Ninjas fun to play without making them overpowered. There wouldn't really even need to be any excessive changes made. It would be a simple matter of copying and pasting code from other skills, so I don't see how it would be undoable either.
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#22 Facekiller

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 03:30 PM

My main complaint is that kRO made Expanded Classes in the first place if all they intended was for them to be a gimmick, or some kind of distraction. I would like to think that the original goal had been to bring new classes into the game that would be viable, and would change the dynamics of the game to make it overall more interesting and enjoyable. If that wasn't the goal, it just doesn't make sense to waste the money and resources to create them in the first place.

That's why I made the suggestions that I did in my thread regarding Ninjas. Everything I suggested would actually make Ninjas fun to play without making them overpowered. There wouldn't really even need to be any excessive changes made. It would be a simple matter of copying and pasting code from other skills, so I don't see how it would be undoable either.

the skills are really fine the way they are for the most part... if Kunai explosion was enemy target or had no cast time it would be awesome.... if kunai explosion did twice its current damage it would be fine... the only skill i would like to see drastically changed would be Rapid Throw...and thats mainly the Shadow Chasers being able to copy it....
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#23 Kadelia

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 03:58 PM

im not attacking you personally...but try and remember back to what it was like in the beginning... my issue isnt for me even (i do just fine myself) but its about the less experienced players who get frustrated by the game and quit...

I think instructional videos will help.

i agree the damage was a little ridiculous but halving that damage would have been enough to make all parties happy... im actually noticing skills like shadow slash damage has been nerfed... was doing 5k per strike now only doing 2-3k...

I don't know about shadow slash, but as for the skill damage, it was way out-of-line with other classes. With some really tooled out gear, I can only get Mammonite (600%, 5 SP, needs an endow, short range, costs 1000z) up to like 8,000~9,000 damage on an alchemist or blacksmith. I was able to do near 30,000 damage with an easy to element Throw Kunai, at a range, for 10 SP -- and it ignored flee, unlike that mammo. The skill was out of whack. It needed to be reduced to about 1/3 of its damage, really. It got nerfed a bit harder than that, though. With tricked out gear I think I was only doing around 5-6k with throw kunai. it was a bit overnerfed, but given the skills other apparent advantages (such as range, easy to manipulate element, never misses), its still worth using. Compare it to double strafe-- its similar damage, costs a bit more to throw zeny/weight-wise, costs a little less SP, and has a delay. But it can't miss, and ninja has better defensive capabilities than a bard/dancer/hunter (cicaeda/mirror image/flip tatami etc). So its a balanced class. A bit more defensive and a bit less dps than a hunter.

so many things got changed that didnt need changing... the aoe from kunai explosion wouldnt even be an issue for most if it didnt have a cast time... there are ALOT of things now "broken" with the class that didnt need to be changed... all im asking is see it from a new players perspective... ninja classes were a draw for alot of players (most games dont have a ninja class) and then they get in game and realize that they are really just dodgy mages and are disappointed...

You can instantly cast it easily. With high DEX and 16th Night, it casts very very quickly. With enough DEX/INT, its instant while using 16th Night.

Extended classes were always a "for fun side diversion". They were never meant to go toe-to-toe with the main job branches. That's a fact. They shake up the gameplay scene (even woe) but they aren't the same tier of characters. Its never been that way. Expecting this to change in renewal was a little optimistic, IMO.

They are really versatile and interesting. You can run them with like 3 different builds, all of which are fun. The magic build is a lot different than a mage since it focuses less on large delay AoEs and more on rapid small AoEs, and its dodgy instead of as powerful offensively. There is also an earth charms+2 dagger build that dishes out damage similar to an axe mechanic or EDP'd GX meleeing. Its quite fun, actually. And then there is the throw kunai build, which can still 1-2 shot most leveling spots up to 150. It has a smaller, controlled AoE, but the class has superior defensive capabilities to avoid taking damage and restore health. Again, balanced.

K/O may require more skill and funds to play than a core class, but thats what there should be on the table for someone who has mastered the core classes, is bored, and needs a new challenge.
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#24 Facekiller

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 05:52 PM

every class is a "for fun" class... its a game... if its not fun then why play it? the damage was way OP but nobody was really owning people in pvp or woe with throw kunai... its pretty much a PVM skill... the issue comes when youre facing fast movie agro monsters and have no skills that can lock on and kill them (novus ect)... they tend to move out of the small aoe of KE before you can hit them... and high level ghost monsters will point and laugh at KE (flame skull ect) and bio monsters are a no go... even using magic you only have 3 elements and need to recast all 10 charms when you change magic types (not to mention skills like exploding dragon dont get a boost from charms)... its like they hap hazardly put these skills together... it kinda feels like the general damage of ninja class was just cut in have on the physical side... magic damage can be quite strong but it should be a set percent increase in damage per charm for magic damage from that element (using spell scrolls like fireball should be powered up by flame charms) the way they decided what gets boosted and how doesnt make sense just as much as deciding what gets nerfed....
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#25 Kadelia

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 06:15 PM

every class is a "for fun" class... its a game... if its not fun then why play it? the damage was way OP but nobody was really owning people in pvp or woe with throw kunai... its pretty much a PVM skill... the issue comes when youre facing fast movie agro monsters and have no skills that can lock on and kill them (novus ect)... they tend to move out of the small aoe of KE before you can hit them... and high level ghost monsters will point and laugh at KE (flame skull ect) and bio monsters are a no go... even using magic you only have 3 elements and need to recast all 10 charms when you change magic types (not to mention skills like exploding dragon dont get a boost from charms)... its like they hap hazardly put these skills together... it kinda feels like the general damage of ninja class was just cut in have on the physical side... magic damage can be quite strong but it should be a set percent increase in damage per charm for magic damage from that element (using spell scrolls like fireball should be powered up by flame charms) the way they decided what gets boosted and how doesnt make sense just as much as deciding what gets nerfed....

I don't consider any of this valid criticism of the class. Until april 2nd, Genetics had absolutely no serious way to tackle ghosts at all, themselves, and they are a core class. Some classes are still largely ineffective against them. KE has the exact same bug cart cannon did... and it took 2 years to get fixed. K/O may get fixed too, who knows. You know you can tank monsters like Novus too, right? Like seriously-- with Pure Soul that restores HP/SP to full over 10 seconds? Just cast that and KE next to you, and they'll all die. I like to cast that, fly wing, cast it again during its delay (does nothing, but aggros all monster) then target your own cell with KE and kill them all, then fly wing again. use your skills effectively, don't complain because they don't work the way you want them to. Also you have that same elemental problem with a lot of classes. And uh, you're wrong about exploding dragon-- it IS affected by charms.
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