66 replies to this topic

[KTFlash]

Taunt is crowd control in almost every game out there. Maybe for rose is different, idk.

 

Knight should be able to punish bad player who doesn't do teamwork with their teams and go solo, kill a cleric and run like nothing happened.

[Leonis]

Crowd Control = More than one affected target.

Spot Control = Single Target

 

Taunt = Single Target

It is a spot control skill, Sacrifice is crowd control.

 

Is this really still a discussion after what's been stated is going to happen to its effect or are you just arguing to be in the right?

[KTFlash]

I try to argue of what is most common in modern videogames. Just that. 

 

Anyway, I will be looking for the third phase and will try to give the bets feedback I can.

[Leonis]

Look no further, stage 3 is up.

The taunt skill should be working as we described now, which is what we had in mind. As much as we might take example from other games, ROSE is still ours and we keep it a bit unique.

[KTFlash]

My general input, tested a one hand weapon sword Knight. It was hard at the end cause TG was plagued with people wanting to "play the game they gave us, warring for fun" instead of helping testing abilites and such and killing everyone >.>.

 

I never saw a pvp taunt skill or mechanic in the Knight tree. The old impact wave worked as a aoe taunt that could be interrumpted retargetting. 

Right now the Knight/one hand build does have, in my opinion, the mandatory passives:

 

2 Attack Power Passives

2 Accuracy Passives

2 Attack Speed Passives

2 Off hand Defense and Mdefense Passives

2 Block Rate Passive

2 Defense Passive

HP per STR passive (one of the best IMO)

 

from the common tab - Even champs should be getting this passives:

 

Defense  Passive

HP per STR passive (one of the best IMO)

Health Regen passive

 

so, if you want to have the must be passives for any knight (looking that one hand passives can be replaced for crowwbow passives) you need to spend 170 skill points. Im not even taking into consideration the reveal active skills to detect raiders and scouts. Or any selfbuff (anyway, they are worth put just 1 stat point of these, 10% + a flat amount based on charm, up to 5% more at last rank is not something really worth it).

So at lvl 200, I have 31 skill pts left to use on 80 possible active skill just from the Knight and One Hand Tab. If I want to use skills from the common tab (including passives that I didn't get before) that amounts increases to 140. If I were lvl 230, I would have 61 skills points that doesn't even cover the total amount of skills that I could get from the knight/one hand tabs together (and I wont start talking about the common tab cause not even at lvl 300 I could get them). 

 

I see some excellent designed skills like shield stun, stun with a long cooldown, excellent when it comes to stop someone and not being able to spam it (though the stun should last 3 seconds and sometimes last half second, is not reliable at all). Another skill that I would like to say its excellent it's absorptive assault, thought I have a question The hp stolen, at max rank, it's 20%. However, it's current hp or total hp? Can it miss the "life steal" mechanic? Cause sometimes I can fill my bar having 80% of hp and sometimes I don't see my hp increase at all).

 

I don't see the point of Shield Slam. It does damage. Just damage. Pure damage. And it's a prerequiste for the knight tab shield skills. Why would I make a SLOW animation that does at most the double damage but takes more time to cast than 2 normal attacks? Should remove or rework it.

 

Most of the debuffs come from the Shield Lunge and Throw. However, I feel silly having these cause I just could take 1 point on the common tab cry skills and do the same, and AOE. And spending less points. I don't think the point of "but they do damage" cause they have slow cast anim, deal about 2 autoattacks that are faster to execute than the skill.

 

Now moving into the sword skills, we have 1 attack power down  and 1 movement speed down buff. Also we have 3 aoe, most of them weak (considering the knight will not have enough ap to compete with a champ, for example). The only one worth getting cause has a high scaling it's the last skill possible after getting 45 skill points on the sword active skills, Impact wave. The rest are low scaling abilites with slow cast animations that are useless at the end, it's better just autoattack, it deals more damage if you wanted to do damage at all.

 

Why the one hand shield mastery passive in the 1 hand tab is better than the advance defense training passive in the knight tab?

So, on few words, this is the class that needs more skill points on the good passives (the ones intuitives I mean), it's rather straight build into 1 direction, with skills that emphatize damage on a class that is NOT intended to do damage.

 

 

 

I could give some ideas to improve the skill tree:

 

Remove the Attack damage passives. Or make them not necesary to get the aspeed and accuracy passives. Look at the description of knight "Although their attack strength may not be great, their strikes are fast and accurate".

 

Remove every skill that does nothing but do damage. As I said before, they are not worth it, cause investing into attack damage to improve them will lead into having better results autottacking twice.

 

Add a taunt. I don't know how you might make it work, but right now it nonexistant.

 

Then there are a few ideas to increase the UTILIY, not damage, for knights:

 

- a passive, or activable skill, that would add a down debuff to the target. Something like

Ice Sword (Active) (on Succesful Hit)

Cooldown: 30 seconds Succes Rate: 30% Duration(active skill): 10 seconds. Duration (debuff): 1 second

Applies: Slow (5%)

 

So, everytime the knight lands a succesful hit on an enemy, it does have a 30% of chance to slow it for 5% for 1 second.

Why like this? Cause the knight it's supposed to attack fast and accurate, and this skill scales not with Attack Damage(wich the knight is not suppose to build), but with aspeed and accuracy (wich SHOULD be building).

 

You can even make trees for a mspeed/aspeed/critical debuff(does that even exist? critical will not have counterplay) for melee and a attackpower/accuracy/additionaldamage for ranged.

 

 

 

Just want to add, finally:
 

They are not only efficient in protecting party members

 

but right now, I couldn't defend anyone in TG.

[KTFlash]

is anoyone else going to share his thoughts? I don't wanna feel alone when discussing this D:

[SlowBob]

I never saw a pvp taunt skill or mechanic in the Knight tree.

There is one

 

About the used skillpoints you are right, basicly i think it's a good thing since it will allow a lot of different builds, however scouts for example, don't have that problem.

 

So, everytime the knight lands a succesful hit on an enemy, it does have a 30% of chance to slow it for 5% for 1 second.

I realy like that idea, however i would slow it down by 50%, since knights can't actually kill their enemys they could atleast stop them from running away

[KTFlash]

I never saw a pvp taunt skill or mechanic in the Knight tree.

There is one

Wich one?

[SlowBob]

it's called Taunt ^^

[KTFlash]

In the common tab? It doesn't work on players.

[SlowBob]

Hang on are you talking about pega or the live server?

[KTFlash]

Hang on are you talking about pega or the live server?

Pegasus of course.

 

The taunt skill, called "Taunt" in the common tab applies a stun, but the target must be an enemy monster. Tried to taunt my cleric in DOD with any active skill I could have, but none applied a taunt. I felt cheated

[SlowBob]

hmmm sry my bad i'll check it out

 

[Leonis]

- Absorptive Assault
It converts 20% of the damage you deal in to HP and heals yourself.

If you "miss" you do no damage, thus no healing will be done.

- Shield Slam
If the skill is slow to cast, we can speed it up. Some skills are simply intended for damage only, Shield Slam was one of them. It isn't against the possibility to include a status effect, but we also have a limiting guideline in how many types of bad status effects we want to give throughout any single class.

- Knight's Cast Speed
I've increased the speed of nearly every skill's cast and animation to help with how that feels. It will be part of the next update.


- Impact wave
I've attached a 50 chance to taunt in the skill, since it was first intended as an offensive skill, it is recognized that the class should have a natural ability to try and attract groups on to them for protection of their party.

Sacrifice is still the intended AoE Taunt ability, as a unique skill to learn based on Taunt.

- Why is the one hand shield mastery passive in the 1 hand tab is better than the advance defense training passive in the knight tab?
If you're referring to the static bonuses, it's because at lower levels, the %s don't really mean much but they're there to help continuously grow your character as you level. The static values are there to make sure there's an immediate bump in the class passive's ability while you are low level.

Another way to think about it is, that the advanced form is continuing your training to further enhance your ability. It doesn't mean you're going to do better per level, but you do, do better than by not training.

- Remove the Attack damage passives.
Done. You made a good point and I'm willing to open up the skill tree in that manner for Knights and see how it goes.

- Remove every skill that does nothing but do damage
Unfortunately, some skills are directly intended to just be for damage. Even though the class isn't intended to be a big damage dealer, doing "no damage" makes them unable to adventure on their own and contribute to the overall damage output of a group/party.

- Add a taunt (to a skill)
But otherwise, I generally respond to thread posts as I read it, so the fact that I've added a taunt ability to Impact Wave, then to reach this portion of your post made me smile. Hope you enjoy it.

Just so you know, you do have a taunt and it is in the common tree.

- Additional Ideas:
* Ice Sword
Not a bad idea, unfortunately, we're not at the point we can cause debuffs to be applied through melee strikes/passive combinations. Believe me, I wanted to make some pretty fun passive triggers for Knights, but we didn't have the time to implement such a feature. Perhaps in the future, I do have high hopes and I do not give up easily.

- Taunt not working on players
It does work on players now, however it does not force the player to initiate melee combat now. If you now taunt someone who is in the midst of a melee action, it will change their attention on to you (taunter). However, if they are running away or casting purely skills, it will not force them to attack you or run to you. We are working on one additional feature, where taunt will change the target on to the Knight, for a set duration of time otherwise, so further instructed actions will be aimed at the Knight instead, but that's a little more tricky.
 

[KTFlash]

- Shield Slam
If the skill is slow to cast, we can speed it up. Some skills are simply intended for damage only, Shield Slam was one of them. It isn't against the possibility to include a status effect, but we also have a limiting guideline in how many types of bad status effects we want to give throughout any single class.



- Remove every skill that does nothing but do damage
Unfortunately, some skills are directly intended to just be for damage. Even though the class isn't intended to be a big damage dealer, doing "no damage" makes them unable to adventure on their own and contribute to the overall damage output of a group/party.

 

 

I'll look forward to check the taunt in the new update (if I can participate ofc).

 

I have a question: can we have a separation between a "utility" and "damage" shield and sword skills tree? For example, to get some utility skills I want, Im forced to get damage skills that I don't like at all. If I want to go pure damage build, I will get some utility skills that I dont want to take at all. The build is really straightforward right now for all the sword knights.

 

Also I'd like to address again the HUGE skill points needed to spent in passives right now. I need to spend more points than any other class (even champ) so I have very little points to spend on active skills.

 

Thank you for the oportunity to discuss some changed on my favourite class

[Leonis]

The skill point usage is very much intended because I don't want players actively able to get everything that's awesome. I want you to invest in to getting it and I also to considering which you want, because you can't have it all. I want that to be a class build consideration on how you want to define your roles and play style.

And it is my pleasure to work with you on improving game play.

[SlowBob]

The skill point usage is very much intended because I don't want players actively able to get everything that's awesome. I want you to invest in to getting it and I also to considering which you want, because you can't have it all. I want that to be a class build consideration on how you want to define your roles and play style.

 

I think that's a great thing, however scouts can skill nearly all skills.

Edited by SlowBob, 09 July 2013 - 12:29 PM.

[Leonis]

Scouts are technically unfinished, kind of like Artisans, but their missing elements will be added down the line.

[KTFlash]

The only thing I care right now about the development is to be able to not be overpowered, but being in better spot than right now, where Knight is not the most popular class for a reason everyone knows.

 

I might post images of wearing every combination of honor sets.

[SlowBob]

The last patch messed the knight class up pretty much, now it seems like they got a way too much AP but are lacking in def, i don't feel capable of luring anymore....

[SpawN9999]

Agree with slowbob

 

I thought the agreed tradeoff of being able to tank is having lower mspeed than average, now i can't tank and im slow. What  use is it going for a defensive build now?

[jerremy]

While the overall change isn't too bad, there are some things that I find to be quite dissatisfactory, to put it nicely.

There's actually quite a bit of things I'd like to point out, but as this is the topic to discuss knights, I'll leave it to knights for now.

 

Firstly, like spawn and slowbob have said, a knight can't tank anymore. They hardly feel like tanks anymore, just your run off the mill damage dealers. If anything, they might be able to survive five more hits than your average class. Now I'm not saying they're underpowered, since they actually do a load of damage and the shield reflect is incredibly strong due to everyone dealing loads of damage, but right now they're just not knights. I kind of hope that you can do something about this issue, even if it means sacrificing a lot of offensive might. Though I'm not sure if that'd work with how things are, since the amount of damage everyone deals is just ridiculous. To give an example, I did hits of 400 dmg to someone BARE-HANDED. Like seriously?

 

Secondly, there's an incredible lack of disables and defensive capabilities when it comes to knights. Especially crossbow ones, when it comes to this. Aside from a meager slow that you don't even notice, and two damage over times that don't do damage, it's just raw power. Take the aoe debuffs in common tab or the shield abilities you say? While it's true that some of them have a disabling effect, they're just not  very suited to a crossbow knight and quite unreliable while at it. Why would you even put so much points in close combat skills if you're ranged? Depending on the situation you can't even use them, and no, you shouldn't use these abilities as an excuse to go into the frontlines with a ranged character, cause that doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Furthermore, with the current tanking capabilities of a knight, it's not really a good idea to dive head first.

 

Right now a knight is just a class that attempts to compete with the damage dealers in doing damage, but fails at it. Why would he even try to compete in terms of damage? He should be focusing on defensive prowess and causing a ruckus cause of dangerous disabling effects. It's a shame though that I don't see such things. Right now all they can do is cause some damage, and they're not even that good at it when compared to other classes.

 

So it seems that I've only been complaining for a while now, and I've yet to give anything that you can work on, so here's my two cents:

 

- Bring back the taunt and stun arrow skills to the crossbow path! It was and would probably still be a great skill at disrupting an enemy team, especially since you could taunt your opponent outside of range (think about preventing champions/mages from using AOE's in the middle of the battle, which would otherwise have devastating results to your team if left alone, or preventing raiders from targetting the clerics and other squishy targets). Without it all you can do is shoot a few arrows that do some damage. Might as well make a scout then, or an arti or bourg if you prefer another type of projectile.

 

- Remove those lousy damage over times, and put another effect on these things, like the taunt and stun arrow i mentioned. Or improve the damage over time a bit. But no seriously, 30 and 50 damage is so low that I don't recognize it as actual damage. While it doesn't have to be the 300dmg poison raiders have, what I see right now is just useless.

 

- While as you said the database doesn't allow such things yet, there are several things I would love to see with knights. Here's a few to start with:

• Stalwart juggernaut: The knight roots himself into position, becoming almost incapable of moving for ten seconds, but while the effect is in place, the knight has increased defence, magic defence and regenerative prowess. This skill would be incredibily useful in war situations, seeing as it often happens that people tend to all stack together and not move a lot anyway. I did say there 'almost incapable of moving', as it would be very problematic for a melee knight to be completely rooted to the ground. If that was the case, enemies would just move out of the silly 2m attack range.
• Hell hath no greater fury: The knight enters an unstoppable rage, relinquishing his defensive capabilities but greatly improving his offensive capabilities for a short while. This skill would completely disable the ability to block, and the knight's defences will be halved. On the other hand, his attack, accuracy and critical hit rate will double as a result. I'll explain why I want to see a skill like this on a tank, because it probably seems a little out of place. Seeing as I (and from what I've read most people here) want a knight to be more focused on defensive prowess, most likely we'll see a great drop in offensive capabilities on a knight, and  some greater defences and some more disables. If you decide to follow up on our graceful requests, at least. Since that will hopefully happen, I thought it would be very nice for a tank to still be able to do some risky things. One of them would be this. Being able to give up one part for the other for a small amount of time could lead to some very interesting playstyles in fights.
• Make some more versatile disables (this is naturally not only for knights). I'd love to see things like pulls, leaps, knockbacks, invulnerabilities (will explain in a moment),... The invulnerability thing might say 'invulnerable', but I do not mean it in that sense. I just didn't find the right word for what I wanted to express, and it sort of involves invulnerability. This disabling effect would make an opponent (guaranteed to be only one, no aoe type) unable to do any kind of attack or skill, but at the same time this opponent will not be able to take any damage whatsoever. In a way, it would remove someone from the battle for a small amount of time. Another one I thought that would be really cool, would be the grappling hook (skill for crossbow knight/scout). This skill would be able to do two things: either your opponent is pulled towards you, or you get pulled towards your opponent. And so what affects the outcome? Your weight. Yes, your weight. The one with the lower weight would be pulled towards the one with a higher weight. In a way, it can be risky to use since you don't always want to end up near your target, especially when it comes to multiplayer pvp. However, pulling an opponent into your team would be a very rewarding feat.
• Something else I would like to see, and yes this doesn't only affect knights either, are skills that can only be casted after another skill. Perhaps this is not possible due to the global cooldown, but think about it, it could make for some very interesting follow-ups to things. One such a thing would be chaining a shield bash after a pulling move, causing the opponent to be stunned the moment he reaches you. (Sort of overpowered, but it's just an example).

 

Edited by jerremy, 12 July 2013 - 03:39 PM.

[KTFlash]

I agree with the defesive stuff. Normally in servers I always had 4 times defense than offense. Now it's barely 2 times. I don't really feel tanky enough. 

 

Talking about disables, I think there should be 2 types, depending of the weapon: aoe disables/debuff for sword and single target disables for the crossbow. Why? Because the sword knight has to get in the middle of the fight, risking being killed, so he should be rewarded for landing a succesful string of debuff/disables. The crossbow needs some control skills for a single target, maybe a taunt. Wanna discuss this a bit.

 

Why a Champion should have access to a powerful weapon as taunt? They have no problem, right now, silencing a character, sticking to the target, surviving the encounter. Their job is not to defend people, their job is to deal tons of damage. Maybe move the taunt skill to the one hand tab and make a prerequisite a shield skill? Also, I think the taunt skill has too much range. Now it's really easy to taunt someone. I wish we could have the range reduced for 2 reasons:

 

- it will reward good players with good positionationg, being aware of their partners being in danger.

- It would prevent the crowwbow knight spam it with impunity. Ranged+ taunt. Just imagine it.

 

On the other hand, the sword knight has no initiation power from afar - since the description of the knight speak about being able to support from afar with magic attacks -  would be nice to have the sword force or sould wreck having more range, less damage or some special status. Something with a long cooldown (so we can't spam it) that help us to initiate. Or unique buff, replacing a existant skill, that enhances dash for 100%, different from the normal speed buff (since I remember, the champ has something like that and if he has a speed buff, he loses it).

So overall:

- Too much dmg.

- Can't really tank.

- Skills for single target debuff/disable for crossbow users.

- Disable/debuff aoe for the sword users

- Change the taunt skill position and requirements. Also, reduce it's range.

- Some long ranged/dash that would help sword users to initiate.

 

Anyways, the update is going really nice outside these points. Would like to hear what you think Leo.

Edited by KTFlash, 12 July 2013 - 06:25 PM.

[jerremy]

The disables part sounds quite reasonable, the way you put it. I just talked mainly about the crossbow knight since I'm more specialized in that one, and only tested the xbow path. If it comes to the melee knight, there's a lot of people who have way more knowledge in those, so I kind of left it out. 

Edited by jerremy, 12 July 2013 - 07:17 PM.

[KTFlash]

I agreed pretty much with what you said. Just pointing out the sword side. Would you agree with me with the single target orientation of the corssbow user, but more offensive than the more defensive, aoe defuffer knight?