340 replies to this topic

[3596130702174734600]

I agree with everything Velouce said. I play a Warrior, so lets compare this class with a Sorcerer:

 

Rage Strike vs. Varetyr Spear:

Assume I can have a Rage Strike that requires no build-up points (Rage points) to use and that deals double damage to stunned targets.

I would say: "Deal!"

 

Pommel Attack vs. Frost Driver:

Assume a Pommel Attack that stuns a target for 5sec instead of 3sec and has a cooldown of 5sec. After an successful stun attack, the target gains a short resistence against further stunning attacks.

I would say: "DEAL, DEAL, DEAL!!!"

The issue here is that RO2 developers forgo the normal "restriction through cooldown" path and chosen a "restriction through minor effect" alternative. No other class does this. Likewise, Frost Driver is the only effect/debuff that causes an additional effect. Just assume it would be the same with stun, silenced/disoriented status effects as well? Other games like Dragon Age 2 did this, but it's simply unfair in RO2 to give this to a single class.

 

Battle Tactics vs. Wind Arms trigger:

What Wind Arm really does: 30% chance to trigger twice for double damage. So on the average, you could cast 3.3 Ice spells to cast 2 Lightning spells with double damage. 2 out of 5.3 (3.3+2) means a 37.5% chance for double damage. On contrast, you need 250 INT to deal +100% damage on crits with Battle Tactics.

I would also definetly say: "DEAL!".

 

A 37.5% crit chance is really nice to have, especially if it's IN ADDITION to a normal crit chance. Just imagine, if an assassin would have a similar skill that enables him to get into a "shadowy state" where he is still visible (but blurred) that gives him the chance that the next two attacks would do critical damage. They would love it. I would definitely forgo Battle Tactics for a Wind Arms trigger, just because you can calculate when you want to crit (the Wind Arm trigger stays active for a while).

 

BTW: This effect isn't even balanced by itself. If you use it with Lightning Bolt, the benefit is much, much lower than with a Spear or Thunder.

 

HP vs Healing:

This is the most common argument made by sorcerers: "Sorcs aren't overpowered, because the do not have the same HP total as a tank".

 

Basically, this is nonsense. Let's start with a simplier example: Renovatio. Although a Priest doesn't have the same HP total as a tank, it's harder to kill one just because of Renovatio (and Highness Heal, Coluseo Heal, Sanctuary). If you attack a Priest, you have to add the amount of damage healed over time to calculate the damage you have to deal in total to kill that priest.

 

Let's assume that Renovatio heals 500 damage per 2sec trigger, whereas you deal 1000 points of damage during the same period. If that priest has 8000 HP, how long does it takes to get that priest down to 0 HP? Without healing, it takes 8x 2sec., With healing, it takes ~16sec. During this time, you dealt a total of 16000 damage. In other words, in this example, Renovatio alone was worth a 100% HP increase.

 

That example might not be accurate, but it shows the benefit of heal.

The sorc uses the same strategy, but in a slightly different way:

 

Melee vs. Ranged Attacks:

This is the biggest issue, because its hard to balance.

 

Generally spoken, its impossible for my Warrior to kill any Assassin, Rogue, Wizard, Priest, Sorcerer, Crecentia, Soulmaker, Monk or Knight. All these classes have a ranged attack. Due to the fact that my Warrior isn't faster than any other character, its not possible to get into melee range at all. They can simply run away. It might take long for a rogue to kill me in this way, but sooner or later, his poisoned throwing dagger would kill me.

 

Therefore the only chance a Warrior has is to either kill mobs (they are too dumb to kite) or take opponents by surprise as they is busy killing each other. Other melee classes have similar problems. A rogue or assassin can stay invisible, so it's hard to run away.

 

You would now expect that this major drawback is balanced out by some other facts... f.e. that all classes with a ranged attack must stay put to attack ... so that a melee class would get closer on every attack.... or you would expect that the melee damage is much higher, so that once I get into melee the drawback is inversed. This would make melee a high-risk, high-reward playstyle. But RO2 developers chosen to do the ridiculous: They gave most ranged classes an additional slowing or immobilizing attack and an equally or higher damage output.

 

Well there is some kind of hope: Charge, Leap or teleport attacks. With them, you can overcome the distance between you and your target, but it turns out that this is irrelevant most of the time, if you can't keep them at melee range.... so this is where your damage output comes into account and the fact that your target can slow you down or immobilize you and get into ranged mode again.

 

To sum it up:

A Sorcerer has a higher overall damage output, has a higher burst damage, higher attack range, better cooldown/build-up skill and more HP over the course of time.

 

Why it isn't this a ko-fact?:

Beside the already mentioned hope for melee characters based on the chaotic business in the Coloseum, one the most popular whining arguments anti-sorc-nerf is ganging up against sorcs. Well, although all classes suffer from the simple fact that being attacked by 2 players equals receiving twice the damage, it can balance out overpowered classes a bit. However, this can become a necessity, a must-do burden for players to negate an existing inbalance.

 

Another sort of balancing can be similar to the "Scissor-Stone-Paper-Lizard-Spock" game. If a ranger can kill tanks easily, but are killed by sorcs, whereas the latter is easily killed by rogues, who are killed often by tanks. This is a good way to assure balance, if there is a way that the numbers can increase/decrease accordingly. But RO2 is a bad choice, since the absence of one part can destroy the whole balancing concept.

I sometimes play my friend's warrior class in PVP for him. Yesterday i managed 2nd place in 4th round with 1 player kill. I killed 13mobs and managed 2nd place. I standby everything i said. Sorcs don't need any changes for them. If you are a smart skilled player you can avoid their damage, unless you are a ranger. Also, when playing as my friend's warrior, he randomly gets 2 kills per rage strike, so I don't see why it should get a buff when he can pull 2 kills for his 1 attack. I really think you need to spend more time getting better instead of attacking other classes who struggle just as much as you do.

[Greven79]

People keep complaining about sorcerers, when rangers and priest are way more OP than them. Do any of you even try to fight priest in the first 3 rounds? If you do are you successful? Is the 1:30m spent fighting them worth it when someone DOTs them and takes it? Their healing factors need readjusting.

 

Let's make some tests between a priest and other classes:

 

Ranger - Charge Arrow: Deals 45% damage, cooldown 1sec

Priest - Heal: Heals 43% damage, cooldown 1sec

 

Ranger - Poison Arrow: Deals 21% damage,duration 10sec (+initial damage)

Priest - Renovatio: Heals 22% damage, duration 12sec

 

As you can see, it takes as much effort for the priest to heal himself at it takes to damage him. Whenever a Priest skips a Heal activation to actually deal damage, he also suffers damage.

 

You can go on with this equation: Whenever the Ranger uses Double Strafing to deal 43% damage at casting-speed "instant", the Priest ought to activate Aspersio (also instant cast) to double the next Heal effect (+43% Heal). Aspersio might grant a benefit for the next 3 Heal spells, but the Ranger has the chance to trigger the "Main Ranger" skill to use multiple Double Strafings in a row. Whenever a Ranger uses the Falcon (+30% DoT; duration 30sec), the Priest can use Archangel to get (+25% Heal effectiveness; 30sec duration) to counter this.

 

In a random test against a ranger with no pets, no invisibility, no pots and equal gear, the ranger won nevertheless, but it was a close fight. Whereas the priest can activate a single DoT to deal damage and healing thereafter, the Ranger can use True Sight to create another Falcon and use Claymore trap for some extra DoT.

 

All in all, the Heal effectiveness is quite balanced to negate all incoming damage at the cost of being forced to heal all the time. Sounds quite fair to me.

 

They can keep moving and heal, they can even freely give themselves a speed buff. Sorcerers don't kill priest because they can outlast them, and the only 2 classes i know that can take them 1v1 is ranger and wiz.

 

Most of you must not realize that rangers are mobile melee classes. They can just move and attack with the greatest of ease and and drain your health rapidly without you ever getting near them. Sorcs hit hard for the fragile classes yes, but by far at least mention that rangers and priest are OP as crap. 

 

I also like to point out that EVERY class can dodge the sorcerer's VS frozen setup. If you don't know how to, quit posting here cause you don't understand PVP yet. Try dodging the 3 status inflicts from priest, or get away from a ranger, then come back and complain about a sorc who barely killed you with 3-10s of setup.

 

So lets test some other classes...

 

Wizards:

Same as the Ranger.

43% Heal vs. 49% Fire Bolt.

22% Renovatio vs. 21.56% Fire Arms burn damage (49% + 10% MagAtt. => 40% as burn damage)

Aspersio vs. Fire Ball Mastery

Archangel vs. Blast Arms

...

 

Sorcerer:

Same as Wizards if they use fire spells,

otherwise:

43% Heal vs. 44% (2x 22%) Lightning Bolt (at least double cast speed)

43% Heal vs 49% (1.3x 38%) Cold Bolt (Cold Bolt has a faster cast rate)

22% Renovatio vs. 22% LoR (with active Earth Arms)

Aspersio vs. Frost Diver

...

Sorcs can choose "Battle Mode", so that they won't heal as much as the Priest, but deal more damage.

 

Rogue / Assassin:

43% Heal vs. at least 50% Double Strike (much faster attack/cast speed)

22% Renovatio vs. 15% Poisoning Weapon (the latter benefits from Doping as well)

Aspersio vs. Stun, Gangsters Paradise or Combo Mastery + Death Strike bonus damage

Archangel vs. Doping/Shadow Form

....

 

And so on....

 

To sum it up again: Usually, a priest can negate nearly all the damage he suffers from 1 opponent but if he wants to do this, he does nothing else but to heal himself. In a true 1:1, the priest wont really win against a rogue or assassin, but it may take a while. So if the "damage vs. heal" output is quite equal, it's about the mobility: Well, a priest has to stand still for the any healing skill but Renovatio. Renovatio however is easily negated by a Poison Arrow or similar DoTs that can be casted during movement as well.

 

If it isn't the healing output and not really a movement issue, the statement that priests are "inbalanced" must have a different origin.

 

The true origin are three things:

a) The point system in coloseum

the assumption of how a priest fight would end

c) business in colo

 

Let's begin with . Since a priest CAN outheal the damage he receives, it's assumed he does. And if he does, he will at least delay the result of a fight. This is quite well connected to a). If you only get points for killing opponents, any "longer" fight should be avoided. That's why most players look for "easy" kills.... either by killing mobs or KS a weakened opponent, etc. That's why Priests are usually ignored. But this leads to the image of an overpowered class and c). If a Priest has the time to deal damage without being attack due to a) and , he is on the winning side.

 

 

Most of you must not realize that rangers are mobile melee classes. They can just move and attack with the greatest of ease and and drain your health rapidly without you ever getting near them. Sorcs hit hard for the fragile classes yes, but by far at least mention that rangers and priest are OP as crap.

 

Well, this is another discussion I already tried to invoke: Melee vs. Ranged. But this issue isn't an easy one.

 

Try dodging the 3 status inflicts from priest, or get away from a ranger, then come back and complain about a sorc who barely killed you with 3-10s of setup.

 

The fun fact here is that a Sorc isn't a weaker healer than a priest. If he activates the Earth Shield:

 

43% Heal vs. ~44% Healing Wave (17% x2 x1.3) The x2 comes from Earth Shield, x1.3 from a lower casting duratio of healing wave

87% Sanctuary vs. 78% Deluge

22% Renovatio vs. 22% LoR

54% Highness Heal vs. 54% Rejuvenation

Aspersio vs. Earth Shield trigger

 

So you wrote a reply how overpowered priests are and mentioned their healing abilities, but blame others about a Sorcerer issues IGNORING the same arguments you've used before.

[SilentSorceress]

The fun fact here is that a Sorc isn't a weaker healer than a priest. If he activates the Earth Shield:

 

43% Heal vs. ~44% Healing Wave (17% x2 x1.3) The x2 comes from Earth Shield, x1.3 from a lower casting duratio of healing wave

87% Sanctuary vs. 78% Deluge

22% Renovatio vs. 22% LoR

54% Highness Heal vs. 54% Rejuvenation

Aspersio vs. Earth Shield trigger

 

So you wrote a reply how overpowered priests are and mentioned their healing abilities, but blame others about a Sorcerer issues IGNORING the same arguments you've used before.

 

Sorcerers aren't weak healers, but even if the numbers are similar, priests are a lot more durable. I wouldn't compare aspersio with Earth Emblem. Priest has sacrament for 110% healing which can then be combined with aspersio for double healing on heal and 150% + 50% HoT on HH. While they're doing this, they have assumptio to cut damage by up to 40%, which is temporarily like having an additional near 2x healing bonus. Then, if all of that isn't enough, they have a full heal that makes the process of wearing them down start all over again.

 

Reno is also a lot better than LoR as far as pvp goes. LoR crits, but that's it. Reno can be kept on you forever with no effort and it doesn't limit you to sitting in place. I think sanc is also faster than del, making it more useful as a emergency heal. Looking at rejuvination with full points is also a little unfair since no one is going to have that. If anything HW would get 5 points first, and that already can cost you points in other skills. Reju is fairly useless. HH can heal multiple people (so most priests will probably have it) and it can be boosted by sacrament and aspersio which means it is really useful in pvp.

 

Having Earth Emblem is good, but a Sorcerer needs to switch to it to have formidable healing. A priest in any state can heal insane amounts. There is the magic attack advantage that sorcs have, but in practice I do not see it. I see priests healing away damage that would end me as a sorcerer.

[3596130702174734600]

Let's make some tests between a priest and other classes:

 

Ranger - Charge Arrow: Deals 45% damage, cooldown 1sec

Priest - Heal: Heals 43% damage, cooldown 1sec

 

Ranger - Poison Arrow: Deals 21% damage,duration 10sec (+initial damage)

Priest - Renovatio: Heals 22% damage, duration 12sec

 

As you can see, it takes as much effort for the priest to heal himself at it takes to damage him. Whenever a Priest skips a Heal activation to actually deal damage, he also suffers damage.

 

You can go on with this equation: Whenever the Ranger uses Double Strafing to deal 43% damage at casting-speed "instant", the Priest ought to activate Aspersio (also instant cast) to double the next Heal effect (+43% Heal). Aspersio might grant a benefit for the next 3 Heal spells, but the Ranger has the chance to trigger the "Main Ranger" skill to use multiple Double Strafings in a row. Whenever a Ranger uses the Falcon (+30% DoT; duration 30sec), the Priest can use Archangel to get (+25% Heal effectiveness; 30sec duration) to counter this.

 

In a random test against a ranger with no pets, no invisibility, no pots and equal gear, the ranger won nevertheless, but it was a close fight. Whereas the priest can activate a single DoT to deal damage and healing thereafter, the Ranger can use True Sight to create another Falcon and use Claymore trap for some extra DoT.

 

All in all, the Heal effectiveness is quite balanced to negate all incoming damage at the cost of being forced to heal all the time. Sounds quite fair to me.

 

 

So lets test some other classes...

 

Wizards:

Same as the Ranger.

43% Heal vs. 49% Fire Bolt.

22% Renovatio vs. 21.56% Fire Arms burn damage (49% + 10% MagAtt. => 40% as burn damage)

Aspersio vs. Fire Ball Mastery

Archangel vs. Blast Arms

...

 

Sorcerer:

Same as Wizards if they use fire spells,

otherwise:

43% Heal vs. 44% (2x 22%) Lightning Bolt (at least double cast speed)

43% Heal vs 49% (1.3x 38%) Cold Bolt (Cold Bolt has a faster cast rate)

22% Renovatio vs. 22% LoR (with active Earth Arms)

Aspersio vs. Frost Diver

...

Sorcs can choose "Battle Mode", so that they won't heal as much as the Priest, but deal more damage.

 

Rogue / Assassin:

43% Heal vs. at least 50% Double Strike (much faster attack/cast speed)

22% Renovatio vs. 15% Poisoning Weapon (the latter benefits from Doping as well)

Aspersio vs. Stun, Gangsters Paradise or Combo Mastery + Death Strike bonus damage

Archangel vs. Doping/Shadow Form

....

 

And so on....

 

To sum it up again: Usually, a priest can negate nearly all the damage he suffers from 1 opponent but if he wants to do this, he does nothing else but to heal himself. In a true 1:1, the priest wont really win against a rogue or assassin, but it may take a while. So if the "damage vs. heal" output is quite equal, it's about the mobility: Well, a priest has to stand still for the any healing skill but Renovatio. Renovatio however is easily negated by a Poison Arrow or similar DoTs that can be casted during movement as well.

 

If it isn't the healing output and not really a movement issue, the statement that priests are "inbalanced" must have a different origin.

 

The true origin are three things:

a) The point system in coloseum

the assumption of how a priest fight would end

c) business in colo

 

Let's begin with . Since a priest CAN outheal the damage he receives, it's assumed he does. And if he does, he will at least delay the result of a fight. This is quite well connected to a). If you only get points for killing opponents, any "longer" fight should be avoided. That's why most players look for "easy" kills.... either by killing mobs or KS a weakened opponent, etc. That's why Priests are usually ignored. But this leads to the image of an overpowered class and c). If a Priest has the time to deal damage without being attack due to a) and , he is on the winning side.

 

 

 

Well, this is another discussion I already tried to invoke: Melee vs. Ranged. But this issue isn't an easy one.

 

 

The fun fact here is that a Sorc isn't a weaker healer than a priest. If he activates the Earth Shield:

 

43% Heal vs. ~44% Healing Wave (17% x2 x1.3) The x2 comes from Earth Shield, x1.3 from a lower casting duratio of healing wave

87% Sanctuary vs. 78% Deluge

22% Renovatio vs. 22% LoR

54% Highness Heal vs. 54% Rejuvenation

Aspersio vs. Earth Shield trigger

 

So you wrote a reply how overpowered priests are and mentioned their healing abilities, but blame others about a Sorcerer issues IGNORING the same arguments you've used before.

 

Clearly don't know your classes, but thankfully the guy above me already mentioned what I need to mentioned. The only points I need to clarify, 

 

Sorcerers are weaker healers as they can't buff their defenses/health and heal while moving if you play pvp you would know how important that is to keep melee from destroying you. 

 

Wizards and rangers if i didn't say it, would be the only classes really beating a priest. Sorcerers rely on luck in order to win against them, if they are in "battle mode" then if they start losing the fight they can't heal themselves, but if they are in healing mode, they will never do enough damage. Any smart priest would either get rid of frozen status or cut the battle damage down whenever they got frozen so they easily would beat healing mode, and if they were hit by 2x damage spear from wind emblem, they would recover 100% hp back and then proceed to DOT the sorcerer to death, while the sorc has no powerful attack. WIzards and rangers can stay on a priest butt and keep up with their speed buff in order to keep attacking them while doing DOTs and hard damage.

 

I noticed you didn't mention any other melee class besides rogues, which still wouldn't beat a priest. A sin has a better chance since they have 30% movement speed but even so priest are incredibly hard to take down, while you can't heal yourself. Anybody who gets close to killing them has to kill them a 2nd time since they will recover 100% of their health (we assume all moves are at 0% cd in 1v1). Knights, warriors, beastmasters, monks, rogues, and i will still say rogue almost have no chance of taking a priest 1v1 without having to outgear him. They won't do enough damage and priest will have more health than dps melee, and about the same as knight/warrior with health buff in colosseuim. 

 

Ultimately you need to be another OP range class in order to beat a priest 1v1, and even then it is a luck battle since, assuming they have their 100% health skill, you will basically have to kill them twice in order to win. They need nerfing in the healing department.

[Greven79]

I sometimes play my friend's warrior class in PVP for him. Yesterday i managed 2nd place in 4th round with 1 player kill. I killed 13mobs and managed 2nd place. I standby everything i said. Sorcs don't need any changes for them. If you are a smart skilled player you can avoid their damage, unless you are a ranger. Also, when playing as my friend's warrior, he randomly gets 2 kills per rage strike, so I don't see why it should get a buff when he can pull 2 kills for his 1 attack. I really think you need to spend more time getting better instead of attacking other classes who struggle just as much as you do.

 

Well, arguing with a personal experience that noone can prove right or wrong and the likelyness of such a result isn't calculatable, is one of the best ways to disrupt an argumentation. To overdo this sort of statement: "I know there is a God, I saw him.... now prove me wrong!"
 

So let's try the best and filter out some points:

 

a. Getting better Colo results by killing mobs

b. Sorcs aren't overpowered since you can evade their damage

c. Rage Strike hitting multiple targets and the consequences

 

a. Getting better Colo results by killing mobs

Well, that's a nature of the Colo point system only a partial part of the discussion. My arguments were strictly class-based and not centered around the point system. We can discuss this later as well.

 

My line of thought was:

 

a. all classes use the same system // following the same rules

b. Therefore, classes are comparable

c. Inbalances in classes can be detected and are discussable

d. These class inbalances will have an impact in a 1:1 fight

e. Coloseum is partly based on 1:1 situations, therefore these inbalances have an impact.

 

Now, tell me the letter in this chain of arguments you don't agree with! This is how argumentation is done....

 

What I did was to first define the basis for an argumentation about classes. In other words, I was looking a measuring concept. And this measurement is DPS. This does not just mean the damage dealt, but also the damage received. To repeat myself:

• An Attack Speed bonus for one class is negated (balanced out) if the defending side has an equivalent damage reduction bonus.
• By focussing on different aspects of combat, you can define distinct classes

Now with this in mind, you can comparing skills and even classes by measuring their influence on the overall damage dealt and/or damage received (DPS). F.e. is Fire Bolt a better skill than Ice Bolt? Is Fire Arms better than Wind Arms? Since a chance for double damage (crit. chance) is negated by a chance for half damage (parry), are the relevant skills that focus on these aspects balanced? And so on.....

 

With this in mind, I wrote down a comparison of skills between a Sorcerer and a Warrior. All of these comparisons were made on a per skill basis with no regard about point system or whatsoever.... just measuring their DPS impact. This also excluded attack range, etc. as well. To sum this up again:

 

Rage Strike vs. Varetyr Spear:

Regarding the DPS, a Varetyr Spear wins. It wins by the simple fact that it has no build-point requirement and therefore is usuable as a first-strike skill and it also wins by the fact that the DPS impact can be increased (doubled) by certain other circumstances.

 

Battle Tactics vs. Wind Arms:

Although both skills can grant a 30% chance for +100% damage, the Wind Arms trigger has no other requirements, can be used early in the game and is more controllable.

 

Pommel Attack vs. Frost Diver:

An inversed DPS comparison. Both skills can be used to avoid being hit... to reduce the DPS value of a target. And here, Frost Diver wins by many magnitudes.

 

Beside the mere DPS argumentation, I used these examples because they show another point: The Sorcerer class abandons the "usual" concept all other classes have in common:

• Cooldown as an balancing aspect vs. Status effects that prevent re-use
• Build-up points as an balancing aspect
• Sorcerer introduce the concept of bonus effects based on certain status conditions

All these effects make the Sorcerer not overpowered, but less comparable or what I would call "dangerous".

 

b. Sorcs aren't overpowered since you can evade their damage

Like I said before, it's about measurable things. Otherwise I could state that it's easy to win Colo as a lvl 25 Beastmaster. Playing the "you just need to know how" card isn't a wise choice.

 

c. Rage Strike hitting multiple targets and the consequences

Yes, this one attack can hit multiple targets. I left this fact out of my argumentation to keep this skill as a placeholder for all kinds of similar skills. All they have in common that you have to attack multiple times to get a bonus. And none of them would have changed the result. Yes, there is a point-system in Colo and yes, you'll profit more if you manage to KS-ing multiple targets, but then we could open another discussion about whether it's better to deal massive damage with the first hit, or if it's better to hit multiple targets with your 4th-5th hit. All this would lead to an unmeasurable, pointless babble.

 

A final note about the point system:

I don't want to go into details here, but just ask a few some questions: Why have the developers chosen such a point system in the first place? Why not a damage or threat-lvl based system? Why did they add mobs into colo that also grant points, if it ought to be player-vs-player and not player-vs-mobs? Why are so many complaining about certain pots, pets or glitches? Why did they added gear that grants boni in colo and you only get it by doing colo? Doesn't make this the whole point of player-vs-player battle useless, if it's more a 'who played it more often' system?

 

All these issues very likely to produce a subjective result... but if you want to go this way....

Edited by Greven79, 07 October 2013 - 07:33 AM.

[Velouce]

Well, arguing with a personal experience that noone can prove right or wrong and the likelyness of such a result isn't calculatable, is one of the best ways to disrupt an argumentation. To overdo this sort of statement: "I know there is a God, I saw him.... now prove me wrong!"
 

So let's try the best and filter out some points:

 

a. Getting better Colo results by killing mobs

b. Sorcs aren't overpowered since you can evade their damage

c. Rage Strike hitting multiple targets and the consequences

 

Seeing a God is a bit far from being a fitting coparization. Anyways, what really matters for Colo are survivability, the ability to deal a lot of damage in a little amount of time (which is far from being the same as being a great DPS) and mostly, the ability to hit over distance.

 

Being able to deal massive damage in a single hit allows a class to steal kills.

Being Melee = being unable to kill over distance. This means you can't steal kills in time, as you have to run there. Your kills can be stolen because the target runs away. You can be killed by ranged attackers easily if they avoid you while attacking you. And usually Rangers and Sorcerers who claim that "skilled" players can avoid them are - and this is the sad truth - not skilled by themself, because a skilled Sorcerer or Ranger is absolutely able to keep players on distance. This experience however can't be made unless people stop assuming something rather than playing other classes to analyze their blatant theories. The whole reason this thread (as well as many many others) have 10million pages of discussion are based on the fact that people don't argue on solid ground rather than making assumptions without basic knowledge.

 

 

a. Getting better Colo results by killing mobs

Well, that's a nature of the Colo point system only a partial part of the discussion. My arguments were strictly class-based and not centered around the point system. We can discuss this later as well.

 

My line of thought was:

 

a. all classes use the same system // following the same rules

b. Therefore, classes are comparable

c. Inbalances in classes can be detected and are discussable

d. These class inbalances will have an impact in a 1:1 fight

e. Coloseum is partly based on 1:1 situations, therefore these inbalances have an impact.

 

Now, tell me the letter in this chain of arguments you don't agree with! This is how argumentation is done....

 

It's not that simple. What really matters in Colosseum is getting a lot of kills in a short time, while trying to survive as well. Imbalance in Colosseum therefore has to be analyzed upon these factors:

 - Is the class able to steal kills easily using its skills? Leading to the question: Is it able to attack ranged? Is it able to attack fast? How much damage is the class able to deal in one single hit? What are the effords for this class to use this kind of finisher sucessfully? (precasting, animation times, cooldown times, point creation, distance etc.)

 

- Is the class able to survive using its skills? Now you can't compare anymore, because tanks survivability is COMPLETELY different from DPS survivability. And when it comes to DPS survivability, you have to compare the skills that allow them to get away.

 

A lot of things have been changed now since pets can substitute a lot of missing skills or help with existing skills to be even more powerful. The biggest issue is - imbalance in Colosseum got this new factor - have you spent a lot of time/money on pets before or not? After all, this has been tried to be avoided by making gear/cards not count, so why does it apply now with pets anyways?

 

 

Rage Strike vs. Varetyr Spear:

Regarding the DPS, a Varetyr Spear wins. It wins by the simple fact that it has no build-point requirement and therefore is usuable as a first-strike skill and it also wins by the fact that the DPS impact can be increased (doubled) by certain other circumstances.

Rage Strike and VS are 2 completely different skills and can't be compared.

 

 

Battle Tactics vs. Wind Arms:

Although both skills can grant a 30% chance for +100% damage, the Wind Arms trigger has no other requirements, can be used early in the game and is more controllable.

There is no reason to compare this, because the result of how these skills are used within other functions are completely different from each other.

 

 

Pommel Attack vs. Frost Diver:

An inversed DPS comparison. Both skills can be used to avoid being hit... to reduce the DPS value of a target. And here, Frost Diver wins by many magnitudes.

 

Beside the mere DPS argumentation, I used these examples because they show another point: The Sorcerer class abandons the "usual" concept all other classes have in common:

• Cooldown as an balancing aspect vs. Status effects that prevent re-use
• Build-up points as an balancing aspect
• Sorcerer introduce the concept of bonus effects based on certain status conditions

All these effects make the Sorcerer not overpowered, but less comparable or what I would call "dangerous".

 

Unless Pommel Attack gets a counterpart that allows dealing higher damage upon a knocked down character, it is not comparable to Frost Driver. Also it's rather possible to permanently freeze someone than permanently k.o. someone. In this case of course, freezed targets are still able to attack. Which however just speaks again for why the ability to attack ranged is so enormously important.

 

 

b. Sorcs aren't overpowered since you can evade their damage

Like I said before, it's about measurable things. Otherwise I could state that it's easy to win Colo as a lvl 25 Beastmaster. Playing the "you just need to know how" card isn't a wise choice.

 

That is absolutely right, especially if your discussion partner just avoids solid arguments by acting as if he had more experience, while in the very same moment, your own playing experience with many classes starts telling you that your discussion partner lies about his experience.

 

 

c. Rage Strike hitting multiple targets and the consequences

Yes, this one attack can hit multiple targets. I left this fact out of my argumentation to keep this skill as a placeholder for all kinds of similar skills. All they have in common that you have to attack multiple times to get a bonus. And none of them would have changed the result. Yes, there is a point-system in Colo and yes, you'll profit more if you manage to KS-ing multiple targets, but then we could open another discussion about whether it's better to deal massive damage with the first hit, or if it's better to hit multiple targets with your 4th-5th hit. All this would lead to an unmeasurable, pointless babble.

It is nearly impossible to kill 2 targets or more with Rage Strike at the same time, therefore it's almost pointless to discuss this skill for this reason. Warriors use Brandish Storm for AoEing.

 

Ultimately, Warriors have a higher chance to survive than most other classes. The real big imbalance can be noticed as soon as you start comparing Rangers and Sorcerers to Rogues, Monks and Beastmasters.

Edited by Velouce, 07 October 2013 - 09:10 AM.

[SilentSorceress]

Being able to deal massive damage in a single hit allows a class to steal kills.

Being Melee = being unable to kill over distance. This means you can't steal kills in time, as you have to run there. Your kills can be stolen because the target runs away. You can be killed by ranged attackers easily if they avoid you while attacking you. And usually Rangers and Sorcerers who claim that "skilled" players can avoid them are - and this is the sad truth - not skilled by themself, because a skilled Sorcerer or Ranger is absolutely able to keep players on distance. This experience however can't be made unless people stop assuming something rather than playing other classes to analyze their blatant theories. The whole reason this thread (as well as many many others) have 10million pages of discussion are based on the fact that people don't argue on solid ground rather than making assumptions without basic knowledge.

 

Range is an advantage, but it's not the advantage. There is no reason why being melee keeps you from getting to someone in time to kill them, and if you can hide or close gaps, it makes being melee less of a disadvantage.

 

Perhaps 1 on 1 ranged classes can keep a distance all day, but colo is not 1v1 and shouldn't be based on 1v1 logic exclusively. Half of the players in colo are ignoring your at any given time. Half of the players in colo + classes that don't prefer to attack your class are ignoring you or avoiding you at any given time. All of the players in colo are ignoring you if you can't be seen.

[AhinaReyoh]

Range is an advantage, but it's not the advantage. There is no reason why being melee keeps you from getting to someone in time to kill them, and if you can hide or close gaps, it makes being melee less of a disadvantage.

 

I can go noob it up in Colosseum with my level 35 Ranger, and do just as well as my level 50 colo geared melees. My Wizard can go through a round with 10 kills while my melees struggle for 1-2. If range isn't the advantage, then what is causing such a difference? (EDIT: I don't have an Assassin though, they're an outlier when it comes to melees.)

Edited by AhinaReyoh, 07 October 2013 - 12:27 PM.

[SilentSorceress]

I've managed a fair number of kills as a sorcerer too, but I can still end up behind melee characters in the ranking, so not everyone playing melee is struggling to get 1-2 kills. Kill stealing is basically the same no matter the class. Yes melee will need to do more walking than a ranged, but that doesn't prevent them from taking a kill. Someone at low health won't necessarily die instantly, and even if they die before you can get to them, you can turn on the person that was fighting them. If your health is high, then you will have some advantage. You might also benefit from them having used their skills, leaving them with only basic attacks while everything else is on cooldown. Of course it's pretty situational, but all of colo is. You need to play the situation to your advantage if possible. Melee has to be more careful in beginning a fight, but most of them some kind of tool to get around the range disadvantage.

 

I can accept that many believe melee classes are at a disadvantage. I haven't played enough classes to make my own final decision.  If melee does get buffed, I won't complain. Melee characters are far from helpless now though. That's why I said it's not the advantage.

[Velouce]

Exactly this is the point. You wont understand how extremely inbalanced ranged vs melee is unless you've experienced both.

Melee Gap closers have high cooldowns or cant be cast without certain requirements (for example DI, and believe it or not, you're more than a pro if you manage to use DI more than 2 times per round sucessfully). Rogue in fact has no other gap closer and outside of hide theyre helpless. They have no flee abilities and their finishers need combo points and take too long. Assassin for example is a whole different universe. With my Rogue I have hard times as hell in Colo, with my Assassin I win every 2nd time I'm in Colo, however without having any pets or p2w items on her. And the only thing that makes this enormous difference is assassin's running speed, allowing to be faster where you need to be. You can't time attacks when you're melee. You always have to be in the spot of happening because running takes way too long. The best solution to this are wind elixirs, but I don't see why I'm forced to waste like 20 Wind Elixirs per Colo to keep at least a bit closer to the superior classes.

 

Also with the pet system, it became even worse, because of the embus spamming mainly. There is nothing you can do once frozen because your attacks are melee. You can't do anything but wait until someone kills you.

[SilentSorceress]

I have experiences both. Despite my sorcerer being geared, leveled, and familiar to me, I don't find melee with other characters so bad. My opinion might change with time.

[Gluttannie]

Sorcerers aren't weak healers, but even if the numbers are similar, priests are a lot more durable. I wouldn't compare aspersio with Earth Emblem. Priest has sacrament for 110% healing which can then be combined with aspersio for double healing on heal and 150% + 50% HoT on HH. While they're doing this, they have assumptio to cut damage by up to 40%, which is temporarily like having an additional near 2x healing bonus. Then, if all of that isn't enough, they have a full heal that makes the process of wearing them down start all over again.

Reno is also a lot better than LoR as far as pvp goes. LoR crits, but that's it. Reno can be kept on you forever with no effort and it doesn't limit you to sitting in place. I think sanc is also faster than del, making it more useful as a emergency heal. Looking at rejuvination with full points is also a little unfair since no one is going to have that. If anything HW would get 5 points first, and that already can cost you points in other skills. Reju is fairly useless. HH can heal multiple people (so most priests will probably have it) and it can be boosted by sacrament and aspersio which means it is really useful in pvp.

Having Earth Emblem is good, but a Sorcerer needs to switch to it to have formidable healing. A priest in any state can heal insane amounts. There is the magic attack advantage that sorcs have, but in practice I do not see it. I see priests healing away damage that would end me as a sorcerer.

1. Sacrament is not worth using in Colosseum. It increases healing by +10%, but also decreases damage by 10%. 110% healing barely helps considering all the fire coming at you, while that extra 10% damage could mean you don't leave someone at 100 HP. Since it has a 4 second long cast, it's not easily toggled.

2. Aspersio is a godsend, but also needed for many core skills. It also has a 20s cooldown.

3. Assumptio has a 10s duration, 2min cooldown. Full heal has an even longer cooldown. A Sorc can refresh a DPS cycle in 30s. It's obvious that the Priest defensive spells can only be used once per battle.

4. Renovatio only helps with DoTs. Your Cold Bolts does way more damage than Reno can heal. LoR itself cannot compete with Reno, but remember you also have Earth emblem crit proc, which ends up better than Reno.

5. Sanc vs. Deluge is a no brainer with Deluge as the obvious winner. Sanc takes just as long to activate, and forces the Priest to do nothing else while you can use skills in Deluge. This is why you rarely see Sancs in Colo, because even potting cancels it. It's much better to pot and heal than use Sanc.

6. Don't forget that Priests cannot DPS half as well as Sorcs, so healing is all they have going for them. Their DoTs can be minimized by potting alone. Their finisher is also split into 6 individual hits, meaning you can steal their kills that much easier.

7. Much like Sorcs depend on a VS crit to kill, Priests depend on an Aspersio'd HH to survive. If you think they outheal damage that would "end" you as a Sorc, it's only because Priests generally attract less attention.

I stand by my opinion that Priests can be taken down extremely fast after their Coluceo Heal and Assumptio have been used up. These have long cooldowns, so instead of getting discouraged, you should increase your firepower after you see them use those skills.

[SilentSorceress]

1. Sacrament is not worth using in Colosseum. It increases healing by +10%, but also decreases damage by 10%. 110% healing barely helps considering all the fire coming at you, while that extra 10% damage could mean you don't leave someone at 100 HP. Since it has a 4 second long cast, it's not easily toggled.

2. Aspersio is a godsend, but also needed for many core skills. It also has a 20s cooldown.

3. Assumptio has a 10s duration, 2min cooldown. Full heal has an even longer cooldown. A Sorc can refresh a DPS cycle in 30s. It's obvious that the Priest defensive spells can only be used once per battle.

4. Renovatio only helps with DoTs. Your Cold Bolts does way more damage than Reno can heal. LoR itself cannot compete with Reno, but remember you also have Earth emblem crit proc, which ends up better than Reno.

5. Sanc vs. Deluge is a no brainer with Deluge as the obvious winner. Sanc takes just as long to activate, and forces the Priest to do nothing else while you can use skills in Deluge. This is why you rarely see Sancs in Colo, because even potting cancels it. It's much better to pot and heal than use Sanc.

6. Don't forget that Priests cannot DPS half as well as Sorcs, so healing is all they have going for them. Their DoTs can be minimized by potting alone. Their finisher is also split into 6 individual hits, meaning you can steal their kills that much easier.

7. Much like Sorcs depend on a VS crit to kill, Priests depend on an Aspersio'd HH to survive. If you think they outheal damage that would "end" you as a Sorc, it's only because Priests generally attract less attention.

I stand by my opinion that Priests can be taken down extremely fast after their Coluceo Heal and Assumptio have been used up. These have long cooldowns, so instead of getting discouraged, you should increase your firepower after you see them use those skills.

 

1. I think sacarment can be very useful for colo, for priest, healing is really all they have. Maybe Ray of Genesis too. If you're focusing on mobs, which is a good idea as a priest, the 10% attack reduction isn't very noticeable. On other players you risk leaving 100 hp no matter what you do. The only difference between sacrament on/off is that you use RoG slightly later/earlier. I usually go in with sacrament on. If I die, I leave it off because of cast time.

 

2. Aspersio is almost necessary for a lot of skills so you do have to choose when to use it on a skill wisely. The cooldown doesn't bother me though, DoT's don't trigger it, nor does Reno or assumptio. Healing and attack are possible while aspersio is triggered. I find that I do best as a priest when I spam it, it lasts almost as long as the cooldown anyway.

 

3. That those two have long cooldowns isn't much of a problem. You can just use one after the other buffered by other healing inbetween. VS cooldown is less than aspersio cd, and all it takes to negate VS is aspersio Judex. Reno + aspersio HH will negate most of the damage unless it crits.

 

4. Reno helps with everything. As a priest it should be on all the time. It's free damage reduction, and it stacks with pots and other healing.

 

5. Sanc is faster than del. They are both instant, but del has a noticeable animation. Del also needs you to use a specific seal to get healing on par with sanc. Sorcerer mobility while using del is an advantage, but since a priest can always have reno up, sanc is probably going to be stacking with reno at the very least.

 

6. RoG's multihit nature is a tradeoff. It leaves time for someone else to kill steal, but it also means it can almost never completely miss. Spreading out the damage over time also lets you retake a kill that someone attempts to steal but fails to because of insufficient damage. One nice thing about priest attacks is that they hit instantly. You don't need to judge distance when timing your attacks. VS is weak in this area because it's so slow, but it's stronger than RoG overall.

 

7. HH is only one option they have. It's pretty strong too. When used with aspersio I think you can put it in the same class as sanc, assumptio, and coluseo. The cd's on all of them are mitigated by just rotating through skills.

 

 

I agree completely that priests can be killed fast. It takes a fair amount of luck if you're a sorcerer, but if everything lines up in your favor a priest can be a fast kill. My last post was about why priest healing is better than sorc healing, not that priests are unkillable.

[Gluttannie]

1. I think sacarment can be very useful for colo, for priest, healing is really all they have. Maybe Ray of Genesis too. If you're focusing on mobs, which is a good idea as a priest, the 10% attack reduction isn't very noticeable. On other players you risk leaving 100 hp no matter what you do. The only difference between sacrament on/off is that you use RoG slightly later/earlier. I usually go in with sacrament on. If I die, I leave it off because of cast time.

2. Aspersio is almost necessary for a lot of skills so you do have to choose when to use it on a skill wisely. The cooldown doesn't bother me though, DoT's don't trigger it, nor does Reno or assumptio. Healing and attack are possible while aspersio is triggered. I find that I do best as a priest when I spam it, it lasts almost as long as the cooldown anyway.

3. That those two have long cooldowns isn't much of a problem. You can just use one after the other buffered by other healing inbetween. VS cooldown is less than aspersio cd, and all it takes to negate VS is aspersio Judex. Reno + aspersio HH will negate most of the damage unless it crits.

4. Reno helps with everything. As a priest it should be on all the time. It's free damage reduction, and it stacks with pots and other healing.

5. Sanc is faster than del. They are both instant, but del has a noticeable animation. Del also needs you to use a specific seal to get healing on par with sanc. Sorcerer mobility while using del is an advantage, but since a priest can always have reno up, sanc is probably going to be stacking with reno at the very least.

6. RoG's multihit nature is a tradeoff. It leaves time for someone else to kill steal, but it also means it can almost never completely miss. Spreading out the damage over time also lets you retake a kill that someone attempts to steal but fails to because of insufficient damage. One nice thing about priest attacks is that they hit instantly. You don't need to judge distance when timing your attacks. VS is weak in this area because it's so slow, but it's stronger than RoG overall.

7. HH is only one option they have. It's pretty strong too. When used with aspersio I think you can put it in the same class as sanc, assumptio, and coluseo. The cd's on all of them are mitigated by just rotating through skills.


I agree completely that priests can be killed fast. It takes a fair amount of luck if you're a sorcerer, but if everything lines up in your favor a priest can be a fast kill. My last post was about why priest healing is better than sorc healing, not that priests are unkillable.

I do find the damage reduction from Sacrament noticeable. My RoG on average does 3.2k, and that's around 320 HP I'd leave the target at if I had Sacrament on. You can opt to cast it later, but in general as soon as someone reaches the 3k mark, it's difficult to KS even with an instant RoG.

Aspersio is spammed, yes, and if I see mine running out when there's no target in sight, I usually go ahead and cast a HH even if I'm at full HP. But considering the 30s cooldown of VS, you need to choose between Judex or HH to use Aspersio for. Not to mention that smart Sorcs don't use Frost Driver to boost their VS, so there's little you can do to prepare. Full Heal can only be used once per round, Assumptio twice if you pop it once near the beginning. There's no cycling between these 2 skills because once they're gone, they're gone til the next round. Their cooldowns aren't mitigated, it's just that most people give after seeing these skills pop up, so you end up having an easier time.

Sanc + Reno is nowhere near comparable with Deluge + LoR + skill usage. Reno heals for 500~650 in Colo, and all that takes is a ranger/wizard DoT to negate. When I see Sanc being casted, I can almost guarantee a kill on that Priest because I know it's being used as a last resort. Potting with Reno and plain Healing definitely heals more than Sanc and Reno, since most Priests leave Sanc at lvl 1.

RoG is actually not quite instant. There's no travel time like VS does, but the damages don't occur until a second or so after you use it with Aspersio. The way it splits into several hits is advantageous in the sense that you can almost never miss completely, but you can cannot crit completely. It's also very easy to KS through RoG if you have a burst skill yourself. I follow Priests around on my Rogue because they're much easier to KS than any other class (start RoG at 3k, Dark Illusion when target is hit down to 1.5k).

I'm not saying Priests are hard to play, I often make it through Colo without dying. But in response to someone earlier in the thread saying their healing needs to be nerfed, their healing and survivability is all they got. Nerf it, and Priests become sitting ducks in Colosseum.

The problem resides in the gap between melees and ranged classes. All ranged classes carry movement buffs or debuffs while Assassins are the only melee to do so. Melee gap closers can be mitigated by a simple trap, Impact Arrow, Frost Driver, Judex, Cold Bolt, Teleport or just running away with movement buff/debuff. Ranged classes can already attack from far away, why do they need higher mobility than melees? It makes no sense.

[RogueLioness9]

I have not read this entire thread, it is 13 pages long currently. But I do play Collo, and I have been very frustrated at times. 

 

1. I play a lvl 50 Rogue with a PVP chest piece, pants, and shoes. There have been several times where I have seen thiefs or archers or mages that have 1.5k+ health than me, and I just don't understand that. If, upon entry, people are supposed to be "equaled out" then why do people below lvl 25 have that much more HP than me?

 

2.The other biggest issue I have seen in Collo are the pet summons. Yes, I understand that some people work and farm for their summons, but a lot of other people also just buy the fragments off the auction house. And it is really frustrating to be frozen in place for 10 secs by a Embus of Ruin and then when it gets down to 3 secs be refrozen for another 10 until that EoR fades, just for another to be summoned. Meanwhile anyone who is frozen is a prime target for ranged classes and the Round Boss. 

 

3.I also wonder if it would be better to have two separate coliseums. One for people with full PVP\Raid gear and one with people who are not fully geared. That way the fully geared people would be testing themselves against equally skilled players instead of just making it to round 5 by killing a bunch of lesser geared\skilled players. It would also give the lesser geared players a better chance at advancing and getting more BP. 

 

4. I read earlier in the thread that someone had the idea to ban the use of any sort of consumables and have players given a set amount of Collo specific pots. I think this is a good idea because if you enter collo less than level 40 you do not have access to the same amount of healing as everyone else, this would also solve the problem of people just drinking spinal pots and elixirs. 

[SilentSorceress]

That's a very good reply. I would just add that the PvP gear coloseum probably needs an incentive otherwise, people will just use full colo minus shoes to win the regular coloseum. Perhaps double blood points?

 

Set consumables are also needed, also, when you're boosted to level 50, it should let you use Master Red. Colo should disable regular consumables, give you an extra bag (in case your other bags are full) and then fill that bag with colo only items.

 

Removing pets goes without saying.

[jellopyking]

13 pages of suggestions

what's been done so far to balance classes:

 

Spoiler

nothing

[mysticalre]

This 5 month old thread is proof of what will happen to some all (LOL PETS FIXED) of the current issues thrown around in general

Edited by mysticalre, 21 October 2013 - 07:12 PM.

[DuBisk]

1. Full HP recover should be a privilege reserved to priest with coluceo heal skill, so spinel purple potions and grahams should be banned from colo.

2. Monks and beastmasters are manifestly at disadvantage, so you guys should do something about it, like increasing their attack power or something like that. 

3. Sorcerers are ridiculously overpowered. They should get more cooldown on their skills or a magic power reducement.

[JoMsDakis]

Please Add Level Stages like 1 - 20 , 21 - 35 , 36 - 49, and all 50's

[BlackShot]

What is the propose of colo itens in this game? None, i play as ranger Since i get lv 10 i starter to go colosso um and i win just one time When i was just lv 26, and now i got Full PvP 2 set and its Nothing compare with Joser or os osiris with runes can easily go to last round but priest always best in colo you cant kill They and just with 2 two dots you down. PvP 2 set is supposed to giveaway bônus on coloseum and it gives nothing

Edited by BlackShot, 25 February 2014 - 10:01 AM.

[Lanie]

What is the propose of colo itens in this game? None, i play as ranger Since i get lv 10 i starter to go colosso um and i win just one time When i was just lv 26, and now i got Full PvP 2 set and its Nothing compare with Joser or os osiris with runes can easily go to last round but priest always best in colo you cant kill They and just with 2 two dots you down. PvP 2 set is supposed to giveaway bônus on coloseum and it gives nothing

The honing system was due to change that using PvP hones from bp.

[BlackShot]

The honing system was due to change that using PvP hones from bp.

But you can easily farm BP in WoE and in colosseum you can take some throphies to do nothing! PvP 2 Set is worthless then ML 1 in WoE and realy does not take effect in colosseum so it's waste of time.

[Electrophoric]

"

Sorcerers aren't weak healers, but even if the numbers are similar, priests are a lot more durable."

Having Earth Emblem is good, but a Sorcerer needs to switch to it to have formidable healing. A priest in any state can heal insane amounts. There is the magic attack advantage that sorcs have, but in practice I do not see it. I see priests healing away damage that would end me as a sorcerer.

Or you can just be creative and think of ways to beat a priest? A good pvp sorcerer would floor me 7/10 times. But I like challenges, so I slaved for extra 20 skill pts + stat points... invest them mostly into pvp skills or practice new way to fight, then find more ways to become stronger & ways to pvp better again. (seeds, food, enforced potions, etc..)

.... Maybe we can just try and heal people to death in colo I guess...

I'll give you a tip, try and get behind people, rather than staying in a 1 spot and just spam skills. I always hop everywhere around them. Also, I get most paranoid when a sorcerer/wiz chase after me while fearing for my life, hoping they won't crit me...because a single crit = instant death for us.

If priests were really all that good, we would just stay at one place and heal while dot-ing everyone...

Edited by Electrophoric, 10 March 2014 - 05:39 AM.

[Electrophoric]

I don't play any tank class, but people say tanks usually go for mobs. 5 secs to kill anyone is a joke, unless you're a sorcerer. Forever on his head? Please... rogues(Slow and weak defense) are easy targets in Colo, so it's not forever on his head. Rangers go pew, pew, pew, and you have a dead rogue. Number gone.

It's an entirely different thing when you're ml 20 with all +20 skill pts and extra 100 stat pts... Rogues and sins can pump it mostly to agi... With red, blue and green seeds... Hide and just sneak up on us and we're usually dead with a single critical hit... If you keep running around a ranger, he/she wont even be able to retaliate because they take time to cast skills and if you get behind them... then it's cancelled xD

Pvp with people more regularly and see what you can improve, it's fun

Creativity/Practice makes perfect :3