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#1 Silune

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Posted 23 October 2010 - 11:32 AM

Yes, another noob asking a silly question, but hear me out!

I've been playing Dragonica since Open Beta, but I never got around to making an archer. At the end of the THQ*ICE server I'd just gotten one to level 20, and it closed -__-. Anyway I realized that I had no idea which one I was going to choose. And I mean don't think I haven't done any research! It just seems to me that in youtube videos and the like on the subject, there are subtle differences in the playstyles that just go over my head. And every single time I decide, it seems that I learn something I didn't know before that changes my mind! Argh!

So the task falls upon you all! Help me out?

I'm aware that Pathf...er...Hunters... are supposed to be easier, but difficulty has never been a problem for me. And if they are supposed to be easier, then what's the point of playing a Marksman, anyway? Bragging rights?

I'm concerned with both PVP and PvE, but more PvE. I don't mind much, losing at PvP, because you don't lose much, other than some points. And if you're skilled enough (or persistent enough, in my case) there's always ways around certain limitations. The same goes for PvE, but I place its important slightly above PvP since PvE is where the majority of the game takes place, yeah?

So...yeah. Help me decide! I'll be your friend.

Edit: And by Hunter/Marksman, I mean those two, and the rest of their job trees. The decision I'm agonizing over is which tree to go down, so yeah.

....or would that be which tree to climb?

Edited by Silune, 23 October 2010 - 12:37 PM.

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#2 to0n

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Posted 23 October 2010 - 12:06 PM

Yes, another noob asking a silly question, but hear me out!

I've been playing Dragonica since Open Beta, but I never got around to making an archer. At the end of the THQ*ICE server I'd just gotten one to level 20, and it closed -__-. Anyway I realized that I had no idea which one I was going to choose. And I mean don't think I haven't done any research! It just seems to me that in youtube videos and the like on the subject, there are subtle differences in the playstyles that just go over my head. And every single time I decide, it seems that I learn something I didn't know before that changes my mind! Argh!

So the task falls upon you all! Help me out?

I'm aware that Pathf...er...Hunters... are supposed to be easier, but difficulty has never been a problem for me. And if they are supposed to be easier, then what's the point of playing a Marksman, anyway? Bragging rights?

I'm concerned with both PVP and PvE, but more PvE. I don't mind much, losing at PvP, because you don't lose much, other than some points. And if you're skilled enough (or persistent enough, in my case) there's always ways around certain limitations. The same goes for PvE, but I place its important slightly above PvP since PvE is where the majority of the game takes place, yeah?

So...yeah. Help me decide! I'll be your friend.


PvP: Easier wouldn't be the right word to describe it. They were more effective and useful compared to rangers. However with the patch, Destroyers can also become a vital part of the team with N2 Ammunition.

I guess you can say they have different roles in PvP. Sentinels have traps for disable and a lot of mass launches for crowd control. They can dish out more damage with their higher critical rate.

I can't say with certainty that the role of Destroyers are the same as before. Pre-patch Specialists served as a support to the team, continuing their combos and saving them with Gatling/Carpet Bombing.

PvE: I've grinded on both a Specialist and a Pathfinder, I'm not sure if I was more active in my PvE as a Specialist but I was able to get more kills as that class. Gatling would probably be the factor here.

For bosses, they can both deal good damage to bosses. Pathfinders will mainly use their skills while Specialists will use gatling/tank and then X spam the rest of it.
X spam taking more effort than s,d,f or where ever you decide to place your skills.


- - - -

I re-read your title, Hunter vs Marskman. I'll comment on those two classes alone and ignore their job advances.

Marksman definitely wins in both PvE and PvP at this stage of the game. Gatling is learned at 23, while Wolf Rush isn't as effective until level 39. As a Marksman, you also already have your two main launches, Rising Arrow and RPG-7 so you would have enough skills to deal damage or juggle in PvP.

Hunter skills are pretty weak at this point and lack a good AoE. Wolfrush has a shorter cooldown but cannot launch at maximum height yet and is limited by its smaller(compared to gatling) vertical hitbox.

Edited by to0n, 23 October 2010 - 12:20 PM.

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#3 Silune

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Posted 23 October 2010 - 12:36 PM

PvP: Easier wouldn't be the right word to describe it. They were more effective and useful compared to rangers. However with the patch, Destroyers can also become a vital part of the team with N2 Ammunition.

I guess you can say they have different roles in PvP. Sentinels have traps for disable and a lot of mass launches for crowd control. They can dish out more damage with their higher critical rate.

I can't say with certainty that the role of Destroyers are the same as before. Pre-patch Specialists served as a support to the team, continuing their combos and saving them with Gatling/Carpet Bombing.

PvE: I've grinded on both a Specialist and a Pathfinder, I'm not sure if I was more active in my PvE as a Specialist but I was able to get more kills as that class. Gatling would probably be the factor here.

For bosses, they can both deal good damage to bosses. Pathfinders will mainly use their skills while Specialists will use gatling/tank and then X spam the rest of it.
X spam taking more effort than s,d,f or where ever you decide to place your skills.


- - - -

I re-read your title, Hunter vs Marskman. I'll comment on those two classes alone and ignore their job advances.

Marksman definitely wins in both PvE and PvP at this stage of the game. Gatling is learned at 23, while Wolf Rush isn't as effective until level 39. As a Marksman, you also already have your two main launches, Rising Arrow and RPG-7 so you would have enough skills to deal damage or juggle in PvP.

Hunter skills are pretty weak at this point and lack a good AoE. Wolfrush has a shorter cooldown but cannot launch at maximum height yet and is limited by its smaller(compared to gatling) vertical hitbox.


Ah! That was my bad. I was actually referring to the entire job tree.

And huh, that's interesting. But why x spam against bosses? Wouldn't skills such as Carpet Bombing and the various grenades be more useful against a boss, in addition to Gatling and the tank? Or is x spamming just more effective?

...or is that just taking into account the mp usage? I'm not totally clear on the levels of mp that these jobs would have at certain levels.

And the fact that Marksman is more useful sooner is something I never knew. So then Hunters are only the easier job later in the game?

And what about DPS? In general, I mean, not necessarily specific to PvP or PvE. Which has a higher dps rate?
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#4 to0n

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Posted 23 October 2010 - 12:46 PM

Ah! That was my bad. I was actually referring to the entire job tree.

And huh, that's interesting. But why x spam against bosses? Wouldn't skills such as Carpet Bombing and the various grenades be more useful against a boss, in addition to Gatling and the tank? Or is x spamming just more effective?

...or is that just taking into account the mp usage? I'm not totally clear on the levels of mp that these jobs would have at certain levels.

And the fact that Marksman is more useful sooner is something I never knew. So then Hunters are only the easier job later in the game?

And what about DPS? In general, I mean, not necessarily specific to PvP or PvE. Which has a higher dps rate?


X spam is more efficient than carpet bombing and grenades.


Hunters shine when they advance into Pathfinders. Their main skills are in that class' skill tree.

I can't give a general DPS analysis because of how different the two sides are.

PvE:
Pathfinders have a higher critical rate due to a buff that they have, and their falcon (and wolf) skills do a ton of damage. However in between the cooldown of these skills they don't have anything as effective. It's sort of a high burst damage, but the wait in between isn't that long.

Specialists have a constant DPS with X spam and then the occasional Gatling/tank. Like I said previously, this takes more effort and X spam won't do as much damage as the critical falcons.

PvP:
If you don't take into account AAS spamming, Pathfinders out DPS Specailists here, because realistically you can't x-spam a moving target. The Pathfinder launches hit instantly as soon as you cast. Their cooldowns are low enough that you can use them often enough to keep your opponent in the air with some AAS shots.

The cooldown of gatling is too long to be spammable, and RPG-7 is hit on contact, so DPSing with skills (No AAS) alone is a lot harder and less efficient.
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#5 Silune

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Posted 23 October 2010 - 01:17 PM

Wow that's some pretty intense x-spam. I see what you mean about it being more efficient. Mine was never half that fast. I heard that it was something to do with movement cancelling your arrows. Is that hard to master?

And...I'm sure I saw somewhere that crossbows shot faster than Hunter bows. Is that true? I don't remember where I first heard it, and I haven't heard anyone confirm or deny it since.
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#6 codec689

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Posted 23 October 2010 - 05:55 PM

Wow that's some pretty intense x-spam. I see what you mean about it being more efficient. Mine was never half that fast. I heard that it was something to do with movement cancelling your arrows. Is that hard to master?

And...I'm sure I saw somewhere that crossbows shot faster than Hunter bows. Is that true? I don't remember where I first heard it, and I haven't heard anyone confirm or deny it since.

crossbows AAS were slower in thq ice for some reason when i compared the speed to bow AAS on my account with a decent computer that kept a steady 87-90fps anyways it was a 10-15% difference in speed which is almost nonexistent and considering the condition of the server may have done stuff. somehow the AAS in this version for crossbows feels faster

Edited by codec689, 23 October 2010 - 06:04 PM.

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#7 sumbody

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Posted 23 October 2010 - 06:04 PM

crossbows AAS were slower in thq ice for some reason when i compared the speed to bow AAS on my account anyways it was a 10-15% difference in speed which is almost nonexistent and considering the condition of the server may have done stuff. somehow the AAS in this version for crossbows feels faster

its graphics card atk speed f10 full screen which determines the speed or the aas not the job itself ..
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#8 codec689

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Posted 23 October 2010 - 06:07 PM

its graphics card atk speed f10 full screen which determines the speed or the aas not the job itself ..

uh they did have a change in speed tho
my crossbow was slower than my bow i did some testing i never did say anything about the classes affecting the overall speed
read it again closely

Edited by codec689, 23 October 2010 - 06:08 PM.

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#9 Yurai

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Posted 23 October 2010 - 06:08 PM

its graphics card atk speed f10 full screen which determines the speed or the aas not the job itself ..

No, it's not. Processor plays just as important as a role, if not more, in AAS speed. Also, all of that is unnecessary if you get max FPS without full screening or going into f10.
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#10 Hawkstorm

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Posted 30 October 2010 - 11:07 AM

Marksman is good for lv 3x, but during the early 40's I find it hard to kill lv44 skellies. All you have is gattling and tank, which have extremely slow cooldowns. The grenades don't do much damage, either. And hunter bows shoot faster. I find that a hunter is more effective. But destroyer seems pretty cool.
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#11 Tundra

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Posted 31 October 2010 - 09:00 AM

Marksmen are severely underestimated. If PvE is your thing, that is... In PvP, Hunters are much better.
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#12 RennyB

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 05:46 PM

He was glitching his regular attack in that video so that it cancels and can be spammed. No, x spamming is not more useful, as canceling like that is something that takes either a lot of practice or a macro on a gamepad. Even so as a lvl 52 with my gatling, carpet bomb, tank, and vulcan I can still manage to take the boss down in about the time he did in the video.
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#13 to0n

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 01:44 PM

He was glitching his regular attack in that video so that it cancels and can be spammed. No, x spamming is not more useful, as canceling like that is something that takes either a lot of practice or a macro on a gamepad. Even so as a lvl 52 with my gatling, carpet bomb, tank, and vulcan I can still manage to take the boss down in about the time he did in the video.


Who said you had to only x spam? You drop the tank, gatling, and then x spam.

Edited by to0n, 07 November 2010 - 02:01 PM.

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#14 RennyB

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 05:44 PM

Who said you had to only x spam? You drop the tank, gatling, and then x spam.

I'm saying because of the tactics he used, that video is not a proper representation of the difference between how good x spamming is compared to using other abilities.
Don't misquote me.
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#15 to0n

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 10:05 PM

I'm saying because of the tactics he used, that video is not a proper representation of the difference between how good x spamming is compared to using other abilities.
Don't misquote me.


How am I misquoting you? You said x spam is not more useful than using skills, I beg to differ.

The video is demonstrating x spam alone, it wasn't meant to compare x spam and skill usage, so what are you getting at?

Edited by to0n, 07 November 2010 - 10:05 PM.

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#16 RennyB

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 01:41 AM

How am I misquoting you? You said x spam is not more useful than using skills, I beg to differ.

The video is demonstrating x spam alone, it wasn't meant to compare x spam and skill usage, so what are you getting at?

What you don't seem to get is that not only was that video not a accurate representation of the difference between how good x spamming is compared to using other abilities, but its also not even really an accurate representation of x-spamming in itself.

Like I said in my first post, that canceling glitch spam you call x-spamming IS NOT AT ALL IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM THE X-SPAM PEOPLE USE IN THE GAME.
Once again it takes either way too much practice or requires a macro on a game pad in order to achieve the attack speed that the person in your video had. Now if I compare legitimate x-spam(which I will say one more time for good measure IS NOT EVEN HALF AS GOOD as the macrospam in your video) to using all of the different skills in the gren arsenal, I find that using the many skills I have to my advantage helps defeat the bosses faster than just regular attacking.

If you can manage to do the glitchspam in the video than good for you. Not everyone else can hence why it doesn't have any practical application to this thread.

Edited by RennyB, 08 November 2010 - 01:50 AM.

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#17 Slayze

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 03:56 PM

What you don't seem to get is that not only was that video not a accurate representation of the difference between how good x spamming is compared to using other abilities, but its also not even really an accurate representation of x-spamming in itself.

The video's aim, is to demonstrate perfectly cancelled normal attack spam.
It's obviously not trying to compare that to using other skills, how did you even get to that conclusion?

It's not that it's "not a accurate representation of the difference", but that it's not even trying to represent that difference.
How would you even infer a motive like that from the video?

Like I said in my first post, that canceling glitch spam you call x-spamming IS NOT AT ALL IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM THE X-SPAM PEOPLE USE IN THE GAME.
Once again it takes either way too much practice or requires a macro on a game pad in order to achieve the attack speed that the person in your video had. Now if I compare legitimate x-spam(which I will say one more time for good measure IS NOT EVEN HALF AS GOOD as the macrospam in your video) to using all of the different skills in the gren arsenal, I find that using the many skills I have to my advantage helps defeat the bosses faster than just regular attacking.

I use it in the game.
Just how do you define, "legitimate x-spam"?
Was there a clearly mentioned rule somewhere that you can't cancel normal attacks perfectly, even if it's possible to do so?

The DPS possible by using Autoshot, Vulcan, Gatling and normal attack spam while gatling is cooling down is way higher than every other possible combo.
Seriously.

If you can manage to do the glitchspam in the video than good for you. Not everyone else can hence why it doesn't have any practical application to this thread.

Yea, let's not bother discussing class potential.
Let's just say that everyone uses full normal equipments, without any proper options at all and have exactly the same skill build.

Edited by Slayze, 08 November 2010 - 03:58 PM.

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#18 RennyB

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 05:51 PM

The video's aim, is to demonstrate perfectly cancelled normal attack spam.
It's obviously not trying to compare that to using other skills, how did you even get to that conclusion?
Its not the video I'm criticizing, its the fact that he used that video to demonstrate how x-spamming is better, when that type of cancel spam is quite deceiving as most people either donlt have the time or resources to learn or achieve that.

It's not that it's "not a accurate representation of the difference", but that it's not even trying to represent that difference.
How would you even infer a motive like that from the video?
Clearly you didn't read his posts and rather just watched the video assuming that was what I was talking about. He clearly stated right where he posted the video that x-spamming was "more efficient than carpet bombing and grenades." and used that video as an example for that.


I use it in the game.
Just how do you define, "legitimate x-spam"?
Was there a clearly mentioned rule somewhere that you can't cancel normal attacks perfectly, even if it's possible to do so?
There are cast animations for a reason, you know. Just because theres a way to bypass them doesn't make it ok to do so. I wish I could find the Terms of Service for dragon saga but im pretty damn sure that the THQ Terms of Service covered gaining an unfair advantage over players using means outside of the normal spirit of the game.

The DPS possible by using Autoshot, Vulcan, Gatling and normal attack spam while gatling is cooling down is way higher than every other possible combo.
Seriously.
I don't agree.
Seriously


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#19 to0n

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 08:18 PM

Slayze's Post

Thanks.

@RennyB
When I have time, I'll try to make videos showing the difference. Although I lack grenades, it isn't really a strong skill to begin with. So I'll get back to this point later.

I was showing the OP the potential of x spam. Yes, it did come after my comment on carpet bombing and grenades, but where would I get a video of one that accurately compares both? I'd rather not go into the Math Saga when I'm just pointing out the basics to someone who is curious about the general strategies.

Canceling animations are part of the game. It separates the unskilled players and the skilled players (Not like pressing jump is hard to do anyway.) Barunson is already aware of animation canceling, which is why SOME Warmage skills cannot be canceled, while some remain. If they really wanted to remove animation canceling, they would remove it for all skills/actions. It's not only Dragon Saga that has animation canceling, its in most games, and it adds more skill required to play, which is a good thing.

So what are you doing during the cooldown of your skills if you're not using x? Jumping around? That's real efficient. As far as I know, you can't constantly spam Gatling and H.E. grenades while Tank, Vulcan, and Carpet are on cooldown.

I agree with Slayze, Drop a tank, vulcan, and then X in between gatling. The only time you aren't dealing damage is during Vulcan's cast time.
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#20 RennyB

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 03:12 PM

Thanks.

@RennyB
When I have time, I'll try to make videos showing the difference. Although I lack grenades, it isn't really a strong skill to begin with. So I'll get back to this point later.

I was showing the OP the potential of x spam. Yes, it did come after my comment on carpet bombing and grenades, but where would I get a video of one that accurately compares both? I'd rather not go into the Math Saga when I'm just pointing out the basics to someone who is curious about the general strategies.

Canceling animations are part of the game. It separates the unskilled players and the skilled players (Not like pressing jump is hard to do anyway.) Barunson is already aware of animation canceling, which is why SOME Warmage skills cannot be canceled, while some remain. If they really wanted to remove animation canceling, they would remove it for all skills/actions. It's not only Dragon Saga that has animation canceling, its in most games, and it adds more skill required to play, which is a good thing.

So what are you doing during the cooldown of your skills if you're not using x? Jumping around? That's real efficient. As far as I know, you can't constantly spam Gatling and H.E. grenades while Tank, Vulcan, and Carpet are on cooldown.

I agree with Slayze, Drop a tank, vulcan, and then X in between gatling. The only time you aren't dealing damage is during Vulcan's cast time.

Why do you keep adding more skills to your rotation ever post. First you say just gatling and x-spam which was what I had beef with in the first place now you're saying pretty much the whole rotation you'd use aside from grenades. It was the fact that you said just to gat and x-spam which I had problems with. It was when you said nades and carpet bombing weren't as good as JUST gatting and x-spamming.

The nades btw with my dmg will do about 5-10k(10k if it crits) while my normal attacks deal 3k so i jumptoss them for 15-30k depending on crits then shootdown for 3 more hits on the way down then regular attack to fill the cd's. I find that to be pretty efficient considering you can toss those without a cast time and x-spam right off the bat.

My reason for finding carpet bombing usefull is that for most bosses it will hit about 6 times for 6k each hit(mines at lvl 3 btw) thats quite a bit of damage for a short cast time which while its falling can also be filled with gats nades and x-spam.

You completely changed your story from what it originally was in the beginning. That point of view you originally had was what I had a problem with. Either what you're saying now is how you originally felt(which in that case you should learn to clarify in your posts what skills you find useful and which you dont) or you're flip flopping on your idea's to not look foolish.

Don't get me wrong. I never said there was anything wrong with x-spam I just said I find that video misleading because it isn't a legitimate example of x-spamming. I do use my regular attacks to fill in the gaps of my cooldowns, I just also believe that there are other skills that help fill the gap between. So don't put words in my mouth since i never said I didn't regular attack.

Also Just because they didn't get rid of canceling period doesn't mean its okay for the rest. You assume that just because its not gone period that they are totally okay with it. I believe its the exact opposite. They got rid of the opportunity for cast canceling for the WM skills because they were providing an unfair advantage. Some canceling is provides less of an advantage. The cancel spam you show isn't really a problem in pvp hence why they probably didn't remove it as they probably aren't getting any complaints about it. Regardless it's still, In my opinion, wrong.
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#21 to0n

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 04:43 PM

Why do you keep adding more skills to your rotation ever post. First you say just gatling and x-spam which was what I had beef with in the first place now you're saying pretty much the whole rotation you'd use aside from grenades. It was the fact that you said just to gat and x-spam which I had problems with. It was when you said nades and carpet bombing weren't as good as JUST gatting and x-spamming.

The nades btw with my dmg will do about 5-10k(10k if it crits) while my normal attacks deal 3k so i jumptoss them for 15-30k depending on crits then shootdown for 3 more hits on the way down then regular attack to fill the cd's. I find that to be pretty efficient considering you can toss those without a cast time and x-spam right off the bat.

My reason for finding carpet bombing usefull is that for most bosses it will hit about 6 times for 6k each hit(mines at lvl 3 btw) thats quite a bit of damage for a short cast time which while its falling can also be filled with gats nades and x-spam.

You completely changed your story from what it originally was in the beginning. That point of view you originally had was what I had a problem with. Either what you're saying now is how you originally felt(which in that case you should learn to clarify in your posts what skills you find useful and which you dont) or you're flip flopping on your idea's to not look foolish.

Don't get me wrong. I never said there was anything wrong with x-spam I just said I find that video misleading because it isn't a legitimate example of x-spamming. I do use my regular attacks to fill in the gaps of my cooldowns, I just also believe that there are other skills that help fill the gap between. So don't put words in my mouth since i never said I didn't regular attack.

Also Just because they didn't get rid of canceling period doesn't mean its okay for the rest. You assume that just because its not gone period that they are totally okay with it. I believe its the exact opposite. They got rid of the opportunity for cast canceling for the WM skills because they were providing an unfair advantage. Some canceling is provides less of an advantage. The cancel spam you show isn't really a problem in pvp hence why they probably didn't remove it as they probably aren't getting any complaints about it. Regardless it's still, In my opinion, wrong.


The only skill I didn't include was Vulcan.

Specialists have a constant DPS with X spam and then the occasional Gatling/tank. Like I said previously, this takes more effort and X spam won't do as much damage as the critical falcons.


So where am I flip flopping?
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#22 RennyB

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 06:23 PM

You're right. The thread got pretty derailed and I wrote that In a min of confusion. Ill get to the point.
-I believe that the damage from nades and carpet bombing are good enough to be thrown in a boss rotation
-I believe that the video you show, despite showing the potential of what x-spam can be, is misleading as its not something achievable by most players through normal means therefor should not be used as an example.

Thats all. I don't feel Like coming back to a thread to argue every hour or so and i'm sure you don't either.

Lets agree to disagree kkies?
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#23 PoopSmith

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Posted 13 November 2010 - 03:25 PM

This is a interesting thread.
So if I wanted to completely punish Big Boss monster in a solo fight
which of those 2 archer classes would be better ?
(for this question lets pretend the X spam does not exist)

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#24 Tundra

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Posted 13 November 2010 - 05:02 PM

I like how this topic was derailed and now has nonsense in the form of angry text-walls that mean nothing.
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#25 PoopSmith

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Posted 14 November 2010 - 03:24 AM

I like how this topic was derailed and now has nonsense in the form of angry text-walls that mean nothing.



What you talking about Tundra ?

I feel the love in here, like warm milk and cookies.

Also a lot of good info in here about archers that a newbie like finds very useful.

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