24 replies to this topic

[5391130503175245443]

So I learned that Rogues got there Moonlight skill dps buff from 120% to 150% and their Mark of Death DPS buff to get a total of 20% attack power buff from 10%.  I am glad that they got the MoD changed so that it gives 10% to the party members but now it is also giving that added 10% to the 10% self buff.  WTH?  When mixed with their doping skill, this could be a HUGE DPS BUFF!

 

Rogue players have been saying that they are not doing crazy amount of dmg.  I am happy for them, but am frustrated at the same time.

 

Assassins got their face-lifting when Rogues are getting a HUGE DPS BUFF???

 

Not to mention all the bugs that came with the facelifting (Please refer to the list of bugs I meantioned in the other thread).

 

Our dps is suffering from an unknown bugs (overall dps decrease)  and skill bugs while Rogues are getting this huge dps buff.

 

They are going crazy in colo and are killing left and right.  I as an assassin played on par with rogues in PvP, but I am getting wasted by rogues now. 

 

It isn't like Rogues had any problems with DPS in PvP or PvE before??? SO WHY!?

 

I hope Zanbee and/or other Dev Team members would answer this for me. 

Edited by 5391130503175245443, 29 August 2013 - 06:55 PM.

[Somewhere]

Wouldn't it be awesome. We could be like... All asking for a buff >_>. No. It's just how it is and let it be.

[LostDreamer]

i got an idea how about we enhance the knights so we can better survive ranged attacks .. hmmm now that would be fair

[Vau]

First of all, Sins and Rogues doesn't fight in forum, we are bloodbrothers, we came from the same line.

Second, Yep they improved MoD but it cost a new reset skill + 5 skill points to take out from another good skill so...they gotta think it twice.

Third, Sins are way smoother with this form + they fixed some annoying bugs whith shadow form after dying in Colo. (we get faster our buffs after activate shadow form, no more delay) All the skills are working properly as exception with shadow strike with  1 second more animation that CM's already know, maybe next maint~ it will be "fixed".

 

I don't know about you, but i feel my sin faster blaster.

[Chocs]

Well, if Knights can use shields, why can't Warriors? So devs give Warriors 1h swords + shields and suddenly they are the best tanks ever with 70% DEF Defender activated.

 

The thing with balance is that you have something for something else you don't have. Assassins have what all melee classes CRAVE for, and that is speeeeeed. Give them an attack buff as well and they will be another kind of broken.

 

Complain about those bugs (the possessed Peco can stay) but Rogue skills should have nothing to do with it.

[elvenne]

There are plenty of assassins on the forums boasting of how they  they out-threat everyone and their mother here and there, and even tanking bosses as "it's easy to out-threat tanks with their dps" and still whining for a dps buff at the same time.

 

Wow, just wow.

[Pilfer]

Uh, the patch crippled us.

 

Something less hyperbolic...gave us a limp.

Edited by Pilfer, 30 August 2013 - 01:12 AM.

[5391130503175245443]

There are plenty of assassins on the forums boasting of how they  they out-threat everyone and their mother here and there, and even tanking bosses as "it's easy to out-threat tanks with their dps" and still whining for a dps buff at the same time.

 

Wow, just wow.

 

My point was NOT asking for sin dps buff.

 

The point was asking WHY rogues received the dps buff.

 

If there is any class that needs some sort of buffing/redesigning would be monks so that they can be a viable class for dpsing as well.

 

It is still unfortunate that NO ONE has been able to provide any satisfying reason/justification for rogue's dps buff.

 

Vau,

 

I don't think anyone would have any problem spending money to respec when you know you are getting such big buff.

[Leinzan]

Our dps is suffering from an unknown bugs (overall dps decrease)  and skill bugs while Rogues are getting this huge dps buff.

Im playing both, Rogue and Sin, the DPS decrease is all part of your imagination. (if anything right now Sins have 2 Bursts skills)

 

MoD is useless on solo play, I think thats why they boosted it to another 10%, there are plenty of threads about the math calculation for this.

[SparklingLimeade]

Rogue buff was also a fix. The two skills changed were not working as originally intended. MoD was a damage buff that didn't actually increase damage output. MD was a capstone combo finisher that didn't actually deal any more damage than the skills rogues already had. The buffs let those skills fill a role instead of being almost as useless as cross impact.

 

Considering that rogues were already better in some areas even before the buff, hopefully the dev team will have mercy and make some improvements for sins besides 'fixing' our ugly mugs.

[Leinzan]

As for the sins, the thing I can ask right now is to fix «Shadow Strike» to a single blow with an animation delay of 0.5 seconds, that skill is an awesome sudden burst O___o!

[Velouce]

- Sins have 3 useful bursts, Rogues only have MD, and it was utterly useless before the patch. Considering it took the same time as 2x DA + 1X DB, dealing exactly the same amount of damage, it was even a burden to use - over 3 seconds stunned on the ground only to have the same damage without additional combo points or triggering any of our skills. So basically, the only change is that we have a reason to use this skill now, by dealing 30% more damage every 20 seconds, which can be almost compared with "having 1 more double attack in 20 seconds". That of course, if you don't count SB+MD, but it's too rare for being considered into a stable DPS calculation.

The problem comes with playpark, they nerfed the skills enormously on their servers, but - incompetent as they were - they didn't even bother taking their time analyzing the consequences of their nerfs. A lot of skills became useless, and it was a bad idea to take them over into our version from the very start.

 

- Why should other DPS be better/equal to a Rogue if they don't need to spend anything close to the effords of Doping?

 

- Sins are great in PvP, while Rogues are close to be comparable to Beastmasters.

 

- I doubt that Sins are worse DPS in Raids now, reduced to the damage output. If you want to complain about anything, complain about MoD, because it's THE reason why Rogues turned 180 degrees from absolutely useless in raids into must-have. The problem was from the start, Rogues had no function in raids but raising the DPS a bit, and even for this, ranged DPS were prefered for their survivability / positioning in Bapho / ability to attack permanently (not affected by AoEs, not depending on the tank). Now by adding 10% damage for every raid member, Rogues have the power of controlling the overall DPS. Calculate how much more damage is dealed by 10 people if every hit deals 10% more damage. On top of that, having Rogues deal 20% damage means that it'd be wise using more than 1 Rogue, who is likely to steal the sin's spot.

 

I think a major problem with the judging of Rogues is coming from the little experience people make when leveling a Rogue. Until 50, they are doubtless by far the easiest to level class. That's also were the big disbelieve comes from that GP would be the almighty hardcore-survivability skill. In fact, after 50, assassin has way higher survivability. I mean, GP can save your live sometimes, but not in emergency situations. Its primare use fails in most situations for the same reason as why MoD and MD failed before, casting time.

Edited by Velouce, 04 September 2013 - 09:07 PM.

[xxalucard]

- Sins are great in PvP, while Rogues are close to be comparable to Beastmasters.

 

 

[SparklingLimeade]

- Sins have 3 useful bursts, Rogues only have MD

Shadow Explosion at 85% and Shadow Strike at 42%. What's the other? Shadow Assault with nearly the same damage as double attack? I'm curious.

[9022130510134436293]

- Sins have 3 useful bursts, Rogues only have MD, 

 

- Sins are great in PvP, while Rogues are close to be comparable to Beastmasters.

 

sin do hav 3 burst ...bt hav u consider the 20s skill cd? n alway miss..i think in pvp..u only can use it for 1 -2 times (alway miss)..and i cant feel the 42% of shadow strike dmg, jst like massaging enemy..no feel><

 

I wish sinx do hav dmg buff. rather than 20s cd skill..

 

sinx not a great pvp class...and rouge doesnt that worst..hw can u compare rouge with beastmaster..>< the dmg 150% almost can kill a person.

[Leinzan]

sinx not a great pvp class...

Uuuh, my friend, you lack practice... keep it up! Sins are a very strong PvP class!

[Velouce]

Comparing Rogue to BM was tough, but still they are not anything like sin in PvP.

I wont discuss the PvP stuff any further, I'm tired of it.

 

Shadow Explosion at 85% and Shadow Strike at 42%. What's the other? Shadow Assault with nearly the same damage as double attack? I'm curious.

 

You completely ignored casting time, the use/gain of Comb o Points of those skills, making 2 of them in fact increasing DPS. Shadow Assault is one of the most useful skills in PvP, honestly, are you trying to argue against me with its damage?

 

[RyeAkai]

I think he is just asking what's that third burst.

[SparklingLimeade]

I think he is just asking what's that third burst.

 

That is correct. I'm not sure what Velouce means by a third burst.

 

I wouldn't even consider Shadow Strike a burst, it's more damage than a double attack but only by 17% at most. This is nothing. A three combo point Deadly Blow can deal more damage. Shadow Assault does 26-38% damage. That's not even a two combo point deadly blow. Yes, it's an awesome mobility tool and it gives us kills when we see that one poor soul walking around with low HP 18 meters over that way. We have a mobility advantage. It's not a 'burst' at all. Really it just lets us pretend to be ranged every once in a while. Pick a target within 20m and murder them. And and these are all PvP advantages anyway. PvE doesn't care about any pitiful 'bursts'.

[Leinzan]

Uhm, then the third burst is the first one :V!

 

1.- Shadow Explosion

2.- Shadow Strike (if fixed it would be awesome)

3.- Deadly Blow (duh! we forgot of it)

[RyeAkai]

Also thought about Deadly Blow, but didn't consider it because the guy said rogues only have Moonlight Dance.

[Velouce]

That is correct. I'm not sure what Velouce means by a third burst.

 

I wouldn't even consider Shadow Strike a burst, it's more damage than a double attack but only by 17% at most. This is nothing. A three combo point Deadly Blow can deal more damage. Shadow Assault does 26-38% damage. That's not even a two combo point deadly blow. Yes, it's an awesome mobility tool and it gives us kills when we see that one poor soul walking around with low HP 18 meters over that way. We have a mobility advantage. It's not a 'burst' at all. Really it just lets us pretend to be ranged every once in a while. Pick a target within 20m and murder them. And and these are all PvP advantages anyway. PvE doesn't care about any pitiful 'bursts'.

 

I'm sorry, I thought it was supposed to be sarcastic.

 

It's called a burst because it's dealing damage based on the attack power and can be considered as a finisher. Shadow Assault isn't ment to deal a lot of damage, it's fair enough for the K.O. effect and the teleport function. Give or take, you have such a skill. Rogue's have normal moving speed and not a single flee skill, making it impossible to run from your chaser. You could of course waste SB even if debuffed, just to get a second where your target eventually loses sight, but this is a waste of the skill because of the enormous cd times. That aside, we only have DI as KS skill, and it's as limited based on cd as it's limited in function. The only way to KS is wait until the target has less than 1,5k HP and hope nobody else killed it until then, as most other classes have skills to finish off a character at way higher HP.

 

 

And Shadow Explostion again, is raising DPS based on its casting time. People always just look at the damage%% next to the skill, but even a skill with 500% damage can be useless if it takes over 10 seconds to cast it. As well as MD was useless with the 110%.

 

And yes, Shadow Assault is a PvP skill, but this and the moving speed are what makes assassin great for PvP, and I don't see a problem with that. Sins are better in PvP, why should they also outdamage Rogues in PvE, especially considering the effords they need to take for their max DPS output, compared to Rogue with Doping? And yet still, those 30% more damage by MD merely make the skill worth using, but 30% additional damage once in 20seconds isn't a crucial impact on the DPS.

 

I didn't mention Deadly Blow because it's a thief skill and both can use it (sin and rogue).

[9632130515120055620]

It depends how they're going to fix Shadow Strike. In the past it really wasn't that good due to its lengthy windup animation, however when Zanbee said it'd be "fixed", we don't know how it's going to happen. The strike animation in the new form is very fast and if it came out that fast with no damage delay then it'll be a big boost for sin's damage output. To be honest I'd like to see melee DPS as a whole get buffed, therefore focusing on the thief skills. There's no reason why ranged DPS should have higher damage output when they don't put themselves in as much risk and are always able to apply it while thief classes have to step back every once in a while.

 

Increase DA and DB to 30%, increase the damage of PW to 2% per stage (it's not as good as other DoTs in the game), and increase MoG to 0.5% crit per stage. Allow dagger throw to always, always inflict envenom. Just my ideas. If people think we do too much damage in PvP.. then whatever, who cares. The PvP system is very broken anyway and shouldn't be considered in balancing until they overhaul it, IMO.

Edited by 9632130515120055620, 05 September 2013 - 12:05 PM.

[Velouce]

Okay let's start with the DPS question. I never found out if equal geared Rangers deal more or less damage than DPS melee, mainly sin and rogue. It's quite interesting that most flaming and trolling comes from who is the better class for this and that, but when it comes to testing this out, nobody ever reacts.

 

Anyways, first, if a ranger deals more damage is based on the boss and its actions. Certain AoEs and individual actions affect melee characters, while there are also directional AoEs, that are mainly a problem for rangers (or anyone else far positioned). However, rangers are able to attack while moving,while melee DPS cant attack when forced to move away. The key to balance could be with Poisoning Weapon and eventual fixed based on it. Or anything that compensates for the times melee DPS are unable to attack.

 

As for other melee DPS - I can't speak for them, but Warrior should be more flexible with AoEs than Rogue and Thief, and it's quite acceptable to have less DPS as a warrior, because of their other functions, serving as off-tank, emergency tank, puller, controlling aggro etc.

 

Colosseum suffers from a whole different problem. First, movabiliy of melee characters, unable to attack targets from distance, which makes a huge handicap. The other, very big issue comes with effectiveness of bursts - burst damage and casting time (from clicking to execution). Colosseum needs a whole unique nerf. There is no other game I know where PvP stats and skill damages are equal to PvE. Colosseum needs different stats for skills in order to be balanced.

Edited by Velouce, 05 September 2013 - 02:02 PM.

[Leinzan]

If a full colo geared Rogue and Ranger attack a boss and the Rogue never leaves the boss's side, Rogue will deal more damange.

 

Rogue has a higher chance to deal critical strikes than Rangers in the end.

 

Besides, at the beggining of the battle, Ranger must use «Charge arrow», which casting time takes 1 whole second + the traveling time, whereas the Rogue already assaulted his target with «Dark Illusion» in a fraction and even dealed another «Double Attack».

 

This holds true until Ranger can activate their Machinegun-like Barrage of chained attacks which represents their real fire power in which they start to do damange equal or even higher than Rogue at maxed «Adrenaline Rush», but in the end will fall behind if any of the «Unbalanced Doping» effects procs.

 

Of course the Rogue has many other stuffs to do inbetween to keep himself alive, whereas the Ranger just keeps on attacking, regaining terrain.

 

This hipotesis comes from the practice of dualing bosses with a Ranger companion in which battles the boss never seased to smack my face.

 

Can't test on Sin since I just started gearing him, but I suspect of a similar result.

I also lack knowledge of Rangers to tell a good comparison (but Im not interested in leveling a Ranger myself)

Edited by Leinzan, 05 September 2013 - 03:41 PM.