69 replies to this topic

[Heimdallr]

Hello,

 

So here is the next discussion detailing what is going on with the studio. 

 

• Current Damage Formula as it is today.  Weapon and refine are huge modifiers for both spell and physical skill hits, much more than we originally thought.  This is going to change soon and stat will
  
  Physical Attack:
  (Str*2 / 15.53) + ((wpnmin+wpnmax)/2) = Physical Skill Effect under Attack Power  Add in the refine bonus to get the damage number the game is using to calculate your skill damage.Multiply this by your skill damage% and reduce by whatever the mitigation amount the monster absorbs should be real close to your damage.
  
  Magic Attack:
  Int*3 + gear Magic Power = Listed Magic Power on Character screen.
  (TtlMgcPwr/15.53) + ((wpnmin+wpnmax)/2) = Listed Physical Skill Effect under Magic Power Add in the refine bonus to get the number the game is using to calculate damage.
  
  Yes the labeling in the game is not very clear, and that you have to take the refine bonus into effect after the fact also is confusing.  And we are already in discussions with the studio to change significantly how much impact stats have in the formula compared with raw weapon damage and refine. 

 

• Refining
  We do recognize that refining in th 1~10 levels is more difficult than we would like.  Further we still get reports that breakage is happening with Infinium.  We are being very open about restorations in these cases, and the screenshots some players have posted are extremely helpful.  Our logs are not showing an infinium usage, though your screenshots are.  Due to the prevelance of reports we are choosing to belive that our logging is missing something.  This is certainly annoying for us as it means we are missing important data, but it is also annoying for you as it would be a bug.  We are restoring when we see that Infinium is in the inventory and was being used on prior attempts, this fixes the issue for most players and we will continue to work on both the rates and the system.
  Pre-Master Gear gives 4 Refine bonus at +1  and 217 at +20
  Master Gear gives 7~8 at +1 and 336~434 at +20
  If you plug in numbers for gear, it will become apparent that refining caster weapon has a HUGE impact on their damage, close to doubling it.
   
• Master Level Points
  This was a very interesting conversation with the studio, illustrating how the current point gaining/losing and party system have encouraged the players to play in unforeseen ways.
  - Stopping at ML 11 so you have the most Monsters available for target.
  - No partying to avoid ML split and lower death risk.
  - Not engaging in Exploration, or WoE to avoid ML loss on accident
  - Not Buying Skill/Stats due to cost.
  - No dayr Desert dungeon crawling due to risk:reward being unfavorable.
  Well we are listening and the costs and rewards are all being adjusted over next couple of weeks.  Since this rollout will take longer than one maintenance we will be having some events in the next 2 weeks that even with current systems will improve your MP gain so you can get ahead while the changes are rolling out.
   
• Quests
  Adding more is always a goal, likely more daily quests for Master Levels will be added. 
  For pre-Master we will be making updates to current quests or adding other opportunities for quests so that there aren't noticable gaps in quest availability.

[Baddiez]

I may be misunderstanding, but are you considering lowering the impact of the refine stats on a players damage(mix/max damage) or are you wanting to increase the impact of stats like str and what not into the damage calculation.

 

Edit1: Also i had a ticket about my joser bow since the week morroc launched i was told i would be given my item either as a normal joser bow or however high if i waited. Then the ticket was closed before i could respond and I still have not received my weapon.

 

Edit2: Also if you plan on adjusting the refine rates will there being any type of reimbursement for players who used absurd amounts of infinium to +20 their weapon. I personally used well over 100.

Edited by Baddiez, 14 January 2014 - 10:18 AM.

[lokasenna]

?? But my skills are based off a percentage of my MATK/Magic Power. Would refining increase that damage? I haven't refined anything yet.

Also yeah I'm glad you posted the damage calculation, I hope that if you guys adjust it again/adjust stats you'll post sth like this again.

Edited by lokasenna, 14 January 2014 - 10:25 AM.

[StormHaven]

a +20 ML weapons is currently way weaker than a +20 Pre ML Weapon. The refine for must be showing incorrectly for  ML weapons.
source: We tested a +20 Chaos and +20 Joser vs neutral mobs, the Joser did 400 less damage despite having 30min/80max more damage than the Chaos weapon.

[Baddiez]

What rune did the chaos have?

[StormHaven]

What rune did the chaos have?

 

+5% power, I calculated the rune in with it. Chaos still should have been doing less damage.

[Baddiez]

Did you take into account stat builds for each class and their other gear they had on also including runes/whatnot (sorry if i'm being annoying just from what I saw my +20 joser bow hit higher than a +20 chaos.

[GuardianTK]

Quests

 

What is your progress on repairing the quests pre-Master Level? Currently, players are unable to reach Lv50 with just the current quests provided after having removed the side quests. Most are ending up at around Lv48 to 49 by the time they finish all the available quests for Road of Blessing. Does this mean they have to move into the Morroc content to be able to reach Lv50 and ultimately Master Level?

 

 

Priority Bug

 

What is the developer's progress on fixing the crafting recipe bug? Currently there are a lot of players who are unable to advance job levels as a result of being unable to purchase basic crafting recipes from merchant NPCs. Example: Concentrated Yggdrasil, Gold, etc.

[Heimdallr]

We didn't test Joser, we were testing with Osiris, Blue Seed Assault, and Knightage Assault gear, with a quick refine check of the Menace Weapons.  But the best levle 50 gear will carry you well into the Master Levels, the Osiris gear will beat the damage I'm sure, but the lesser items won't. 

 

The chart below was one I made to illustrate the gear option differences between the physical attackers and the Magic attackers (Scythes were ignored as they didn't fit in either).  The reason I'm including it is so you can see the difference in the refine damage of these tiers of items.  Keep in mind that these numbers ignore stats so in all cases stats were assumed 0 with only the magic power on the gear being taken into account.

 

There definitely is a balancing oddity in the gear, and stats are not currently a big impact on ability compared to raw weapon damage.
 

 

Gear Tier Min Dam range Max Dam range Magic Power Bonus at 20 dam pwr +0 dam at 20 Knightage Assault Gear 497 ~ 617 513 ~ 697 0 217 505~657 722~874 Knightage Magic Gear 164 ~ 208 180 ~ 236 650 ~ 850 217 226~263 443 ~ 480               Menace Physical Dam 354~439 363~496   352 396 ~ 430 749~782 Menace Magic Gear 116~148 127~167 1023~1827 352 198~264 550~617               Osiris Physical Dam 599~881 626~994 0 434 612~938 1047~1372 Osiris Magic Gear 233~297 256~336 1695~3027 434 353~511 788~945

 

 

Now a quick example for lokasenna

 

Magic Power (on Char screen) = 5000

Weapon Min = 200

weapon max = 300

Refine bonus on weapon 110

 

5000/15.53 + ((200+300)/2) + 110 =~ 681 

Using Lightning Bold lvl 5 = 218%

 

681*281%  = average damage 1916  then resistance, dodge etc.  There is a range inherant in all the attacks that I don't know how it is figured but over many casts on baby porings this formula proved accurate enough for me.

 

 

[StormHaven]

Did you take into account stat builds for each class and their other gear they had on also including runes/whatnot (sorry if i'm being annoying just from what I saw my +20 joser bow hit higher than a +20 chaos.

 

The only piece of equipment they changed was the Dagger. Full Chaos with Chaos weapon and then Same Full Chaos with the joser.

[Heimdallr]

Quests

 

What is your progress on repairing the quests pre-Master Level? Currently, players are unable to reach Lv50 with just the current quests provided after having removed the side quests. Most are ending up at around Lv48 to 49 by the time they finish all the available quests for Road of Blessing. Does this mean they have to move into the Morroc content to be able to reach Lv50 and ultimately Master Level?

 

 

Priority Bug

 

What is the developer's progress on fixing the crafting recipe bug? Currently there are a lot of players who are unable to advance job levels as a result of being unable to purchase basic crafting recipes from merchant NPCs. Example: Concentrated Yggdrasil, Gold, etc.

 

 

Recipes are being fixed this week, we got that confirmed from team.

For the quests we are discussing on how best to put them back in, part of the discussion point is do we want players to get to 50 early with quests remaining, or do we want them to just get to 50 with the available quests.  I'm of a mindset that get you to 50 early with quests to spare, but that would be a new standpoint for the game and is taking some discussion time with the studio to adjust the game planning in that direction.

[Baddiez]

The only piece of equipment they changed was the Dagger. Full Chaos with Chaos weapon and then Same Full Chaos with the joser.

 

I meant like if one had 50 str pts and 100 agi etc but idk if that could make a 400 damage diff idk :/

[Heimdallr]

If you add 1000 Str you would multiply it by 2

2000/15.53 to get what the Physical Attack Number would be

~129
The Blueseed Assault Spear and Claymore have base damage of 662 ~ 748  so your 1000str is maybe 20% of that in effect, if you do a +20 the 217 refine bonus completely outclasses the str as well.  This is what we feel needs adjusting somewhat.  We are waiting to get the actual current battle formulas for things like hit/flee etc so we can make better advisements to the studio regarding these balances, but right now stat use is under empowering.

 

 

[lokasenna]

(snip)

Now a quick example for lokasenna

Magic Power (on Char screen) = 5000
Weapon Min = 200
weapon max = 300
Refine bonus on weapon 110

5000/15.53 + ((200+300)/2) + 110 =~ 681
Using Lightning Bold lvl 5 = 218%

681*281% = average damage 1916 then resistance, dodge etc. There is a range inherant in all the attacks that I don't know how it is figured but over many casts on baby porings this formula proved accurate enough for me.

Oh. So the 100+% percentages on skills are actually correct o_o That refining bonus is insane!
Thanks for the explanation, Heim, damage calcs finally start to make sense.

[Xintello]

Anyway you could give us a word on how DoTs work? Or is this an actual bug

[Heimdallr]

Anyway you could give us a word on how DoTs work? Or is this an actual bug

 

To make sure I'm comparing apples to apples, can you tell me the DoT, gear, refine total magic power you have and what your confusing results are?

 

Right now I'm not aware of a Bug with DoTs but I can understand if the performance isn't what you'd like, but I want to do the comparison correctly.

[DatMONKey]

Heimdallr what about the potion healing? Can we at least get the Health and SP Potion VIT and WIS bonus restoration restored to pre-AoV levels and then scaled up to our current multiplier on HP and SP?

 

So from 0.1 per VIT to 0.25 per VIT and from 0.1 per WIS to 0.2 per WIS.

The current 0.02 per VIT and 0.01 per SP is way to brutal for any class that doesn't have innate sustain.

 

 

On another note will Class specific damage buffs be reworked to better fit the new damage calculation? My primary buff Fury Explosion is supposed to grant me 30% bonus ATK power. My base ATK right now is 2275 and with Fury it is 2972. However my Physical Skill Effect only increases from 689 to 735, an increase of 46 damage. this translates into not even 100 extra damage on any one of my skills, including max rank ones. This also severely limits the damage output of Guillotine Fist (even though it already hits like a truck).

 

I don't know to what extent Monks got tested but I don't expect it to be very much considering most of our skills and modifiers were and still are broken. I already posted some information in another thread http://forums.warppo...tion/?p=1660291

 

Thankfully they account for INT in your physical skill effect according to your formula but I still feel some things are lacking. I'll remain vigilant and bring them to WP's attention when I find them.

Edited by DatMONKey, 14 January 2014 - 12:13 PM.

[Xintello]

To make sure I'm comparing apples to apples, can you tell me the DoT, gear, refine total magic power you have and what your confusing results are?

 

Right now I'm not aware of a Bug with DoTs but I can understand if the performance isn't what you'd like, but I want to do the comparison correctly.

 

Well what I mean is how certain classes have DoTs that are doing 150% - 200%+ damage each and other classes only have DoTs that do 10 - 30% damage. For example Credo does 224% damage

 

Using my T2 priest as an example he has 3790 magic power. His dots do 900 - 1xxx damage each and he doesn't have any upgrades on his weapons yet.

 

My Cresentia's Furnunculus is also doing over 1.2k. At level 5 the skill does 150% damage he has 4181 magic power atm with no upgrades on his weapon yet.

 

Basically I want to know why certain classes had their DoTs boosted to 100 - 200% damage and other classes got their DoTs lowered to the low 10 - 30% damage category. Right now Priest in Colo are not exactly at the level but close to how Rangers were a few weeks back with Multishot.

 

For example Crucio now does a measly 18% DoT at level 5 and Contingency only does 13% at level 5. Or how Monks Crushing Blow at level 10 does 30% damage now.

 

Like is this intentional? It really makes little sense

 

Before Crit

 

After Crit

 

 

Note the above image DoT is with an elemental weapon. But I noticed this DoT actually increases damage on a crit while others don't seem to. You can also see how insane the damage is in general when compared to many other DoTs like Headcrush for example.

 

I'm just trying to make sense of why some DoTs are doing 1000++ damage and others do like 70 - 300 max.

 

Edited by Xintello, 14 January 2014 - 12:15 PM.

[ZeroTigress]

Recipes are being fixed this week, we got that confirmed from team.

For the quests we are discussing on how best to put them back in, part of the discussion point is do we want players to get to 50 early with quests remaining, or do we want them to just get to 50 with the available quests.  I'm of a mindset that get you to 50 early with quests to spare, but that would be a new standpoint for the game and is taking some discussion time with the studio to adjust the game planning in that direction.

What's wrong with excess quests? The original problem of RO2 was that there wasn't enough quests to level up on. This was a common complaint, that people were becoming underleveled after Izlude. Where did the studio get the idea to remove the main method of leveling? What's wrong with reaching level 50 before Morroc?

Like I said before, if they wanted to streamline something, then streamline the monster mobs (make it so each kind has 1-2 variation like RO1), expand their spawn range, and increase the EXP earnings from them for people who would rather level up on monsters than quests. What we wanted was more leveling options, not less. Removing the quests without providing another decent leveling option was ludicrous.

[AhinaReyoh]

Like is this intentional? It really makes little sense

 

Before Crit

 

After Crit

 

 

Note the above image DoT is with an elemental weapon. But I noticed this DoT actually increases damage on a crit while others don't seem to. You can also see how insane the damage is in general when compared to many other DoTs like Headcrush for example.

 

Fireball's DoT has always been a special case where the DoT damage is based on the impact damage.

Edited by AhinaReyoh, 14 January 2014 - 12:28 PM.

[Xintello]

Fireball's DoT has always been a special case where the DoT damage is based on the impact damage.

 

Yeah I wasn't saying its DoT damage going up on a crit is new to the patch but its something that I wanted to comment on also because its damage modifier is one of the big ones too.

 

What's wrong with excess quests? The original problem of RO2 was that there wasn't enough quests to level up on. This was a common complaint, that people were becoming underleveled after Izlude. Where did the studio get the idea to remove the main method of leveling? What's wrong with reaching level 50 before Morroc?

Like I said before, if they wanted to streamline something, then streamline the monster mobs (make it so each kind has 1-2 variation like RO1), expand their spawn range, and increase the EXP earnings from them for people who would rather level up on monsters than quests. What we wanted was more leveling options, not less. Removing the quests without providing another decent leveling option was ludicrous.

 

What? I hit level 50 on every character either at Sograt or 1 - 2 quest into Road of Bless (This is assuming you do the smart thing and complete Khara challenges at the same time as your quest). Loads of the quest were useless backtracking and hunting things down you already killed before(Verta Delta huge example). Removing those quest is fine but they did not increase the XP awarded from the other quest it seems or they didn't do it well enough.

Edited by Xintello, 14 January 2014 - 12:30 PM.

[ZeroTigress]

What? I hit level 50 on every character either at Sograt or 1 - 2 quest into Road of Bless (This is assuming you do the smart thing and complete Khara challenges at the same time as your quest). Loads of the quest were useless backtracking and hunting things down you already killed before(Verta Delta huge example). Removing those quest is fine but they did not increase the XP awarded from the other quest it seems or they didn't do it well enough.

I still don't agree with the minimalist approach. Offering more leveling options is better than less. Like I said, if you don't want to do the backtracking quests, THEN DON'T DO THEM.

What about the players who want to level solely on quests and don't want to do the "kill 15-20 of these monsters" Kharas? And what about the money offered by the quests they removed? Selling junk items only gets your so far. Money given via quests helped.

If they don't want to come up with more quests, then fine. Increase the EXP earnings for the existing quests but don't outright delete them. Just because some people don't enjoy questing that doesn't mean you should ruin the game for those that do.

[ruusei]

What about skill re balance? (rogue vs assassins)
I no longer enjoy playing my rogue at all, the heal % from Gangster's paradise is way too low to be useful now, having 30-40seconds and having 5 max combo points? compaired to the new sins Lifesteal(Grimtooth 18% and at max level 10 sec cooldown, and requires NO combo points but GAINS combo points) But now sins have Lifesteal, Defense AND speed? Not to mention the Ymir transformation just adds to that...

The whole feel of my class and what I was able to do is out the window... I'm not the only one who feels like this.

[Xintello]

I still don't agree with the minimalist approach. Offering more leveling options is better than less. Like I said, if you don't want to do the backtracking quests, THEN DON'T DO THEM.

What about the players who want to level solely on quests and don't want to do the "kill 15-20 of these monsters" Kharas? And what about the money offered by the quests they removed? Selling junk items only gets your so far. Money given via quests helped.

If they don't want to come up with more quests, then fine. Increase the EXP earnings for the existing quests but don't outright delete them. Just because some people don't enjoy questing that doesn't mean you should ruin the game for those that do.

 

Have you ever done the quest in this game before? 90%+ of the quest in this game are kill x amount of y and the Kharas synergized with those quest so you could do them at the same time. Its the exact same thing. The money from quest yeah okay you got like 1k zeny by the time you reached 50 which is a nice little start I agree. They should do something about that. But you want them to keep quest in and are complaining about kharas which are the same exact thing.

 

Edited by Xintello, 14 January 2014 - 01:52 PM.

[UnknownBeing]

a +20 ML weapons is currently way weaker than a +20 Pre ML Weapon. The refine for must be showing incorrectly for ML weapons.
source: We tested a +20 Chaos and +20 Joser vs neutral mobs, the Joser did 400 less damage despite having 30min/80max more damage than the Chaos weapon.

Excluding the bow(without power rune) and staff/rod, the chaos weapon is stronger than joser.