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VCR Report: Beastmaster


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#1 Njoror

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Posted 28 March 2014 - 09:08 AM

Hey Beastmasters,

 

I've set up a place where I'll be putting each weekly Beastmaster VCR report for you to view.

 

I will be adding the new reports as they come in here, for you to view and go over. Please use the reports as a way of seeing that all your class worries are being addressed, and to help cultivate discussion in the class forums regarding them.

 

You can access them here.

 

You can access the directory to all class reports here.


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#2 Verinne

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 07:31 AM

Just happened to read the reports since it wont load before and a bit disappointed on what I've read. More nerf pls VCRs. !

 

Hope you consider those who oppose those nerfing suggestions (1vit:1def+5moreHP and Cruel Bite to 20% bla bla blah) as someone like me doesn't really like the idea. Take some thoughts from other bms im pretty sure you can gather some thoughts and ideas in game then finalize,but as far as I can see with those reports, that vit nerf and cruel bite nerf comes from a single person, and you just both agree with him/her. This is more like a one sided coin.  

 

Hope that "We" in those reports includes inputs from all Beastmasters in general (how many agrees and disagrees) not from a "We" pertaining to 1 person + 2VCRs. lol.

 

 


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#3 Turniper

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 01:44 PM

Replacing 1 defense with 5 hp isn't a nerf, especially when you consider that hp increases in a linear fashion while defense levels off.


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#4 Verinne

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 08:49 PM

Yeah it isn't a straight nerf but you're chopping half the defense bonus and adding 5 to HP bonus for a compensation. Imagine how high the HP can possibly be is more OP which makes it unrealistic. So basically, that chopping half of the defense bonus is acceptable to them but making half of the proposal unacceptable to devs and non-BMs since its more OP. Leaving us well, nerfed from 2def bonus to 1 and your compensation request is dumped.  

 

Am not aware of the true formula but based on Animalicia's post here: http://forums.warppo...bers/?p=1717988. Although comparing this formula with my hp in-game has around 14.xx and 21.xx difference a bit close though so ill be using this as a basis

 

the formula for HP is 

HP = (175+39*Level+15*VIT+HP Bonus)*(1+(Total HP Modifier)/100)
HP Modifiers include VIP Bonus, Guild Skill Bonus, and Tanks Skills like Grizzly Form

 

 

 

 

A casual ML20 Beastmaster with full Osiris gears, 1688 total VIT, VIP(+10%MHP), +8%MHP Guild passive, and +158MHP from Honed gears.

 

Current Formula (15VIT)

 

Non-Grizzly(Tank) Form:

 

(175+(39*70)+(15*1688)+158) * (1+(10+8)/100))

(175+2730+25,320+158) * (1+(18/100))

(28,383)*1.18

33,491.94 (in-game, this BM has 33,506 MaxHP. so 14.06 short)

 

Grizzly(Tank) Form:

 

(175+(39*70)+(15*1688)+158) * (1+(10+8+65)/100))

(175+2730+25,320+158)*(1+(83/100))

(28,383)*1.83

51,940.89 (in-game, this BM has 51962 MaxHP. so 21.11 short)

 

Your Compensation Proposal (20 VIT)

 

Non-Grizzly(Tank) Form:

 

(175+(39*70)+(20*1688)+158)*(1+(10+8)/100))

(175+2730+33,760+158)*(1+(18/100))

(36,823)*1.18

43,451.14 Max HP

 

Grizzly(Tank) Form:

 

(175+(39*70)+(20*1688)+158)*(1+(65+10+8)/100))

(175+2730+33,760+158)*(1+(83/100))

(36,823)*1.83

67,386.09 Max HP

 

So, I will ask again, do we still need more HP??

 

 


Edited by Verinne, 03 April 2014 - 11:32 PM.

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#5 Arbalist

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 09:51 PM

Trading roughly 6% Defense for almost 30% more HP doesn't look like a nerf to me. Sign me up, moar HP <3

But in all seriousness, that's a pretty significant buff, why do we need it?


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#6 Verinne

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 10:17 PM

Yes but like i said its not a direct nerf, its like they will accept the -1 def part and ignore that +5 HP compensation because its absurdly giving more HP. Imagine those with full VIT + 10, 40-ish blue seed runes, upgraded rare+ cards, max guild passive, etc. Reaching 100k isn't imposible. And the HP gain from Cruel Bite will make your opponent scratch their scalp off. The HP we have now is already high, what more if 1VIT=20HP. I would rather keep that 1VIT:2DEF over the said proposal. 

 

 


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#7 Arbalist

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 10:35 PM

Well we all know that I'm still on the stance of making the class bonus being [1 Vit = 0 Def, 15 HP] while all other classes should have the HP modifier of somewhere between 6 and 14 for each point of Vit (6 being the pre-AOV value). This still makes HP the main selling point of using a BM, so we will remain relevant. Of course, that's not gonna be popular, but more buffs are completely unnecessary in my opinion. It's just a shame that game balancing was not considered earlier by the developers and everyone is used to high stats now.

But anyways, this is just to put in my vote that I wouldn't support the 20 HP buff as this topic needs more discussion before implementation.


Edited by Arbalist, 03 April 2014 - 10:36 PM.

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#8 Verinne

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Posted 04 April 2014 - 12:14 AM

I still don't agree with the nerf either its 0 or 1 defense as we have Penetration to be concerned of. 

 

Anyways, it's Friday again so, just hope to read your reports for this week. And hopefully VCR's add up that there are some oppositions on some of your concerns before you finalize. Also please do say " I / My " if its only "your opinion" and don't say "We" as if pertaining to every BM's opinion. Say "We" and include those parties involved and say whether they agree or not. 


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#9 Turniper

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Posted 04 April 2014 - 02:03 PM

Here's a new thread for discussing this since it's the topic on most people's minds in regards to BMs.

 

http://forums.warppo...als-discussion/

 

If you feel like you're not being represented, then make suggestions instead of just complaining about our suggestions. Remember that the BM VCRs (and some of the non-BM VCRs too) are BMs too so we represent just as much as you do. 


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#10 Verinne

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Posted 04 April 2014 - 04:46 PM

If you feel like you're not being represented, then make suggestions instead of just complaining about our suggestions. Remember that the BM VCRs (and some of the non-BM VCRs too) are BMs too so we represent just as much as you do. 

 

 

Heads up! 

 

 

Character: Vinzy

Feedback TypeSkill

Skill (If Applicable): Tiger Form

Feedback:

 

Make all Beast form Offensive Skills available to Tiger Form to make it more useful. 

 

 

http://forums.warppo...ions/?p=1732189

 

 

Character Name: Vinzy

Suggestion Type: Animation - Beast Charge Skill

Suggestion Description: 

Like Knight's Shield Charge Skill, the long animation makes us prone to getting stucked/bugged unable to use skill/items afterwards. I would like to suggest to make it instant like Shadow Assault(Assassin) or Dark Illusion(Thief).

 

http://forums.warppo...ions/?p=1740608

 

Anyways, suggestions

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Character Name: Vinzy

Suggestion Type: New Skill - Mass Taunt (Tank Branch)

Suggestion Description: As a tank, we also need a skill to hold mobs (you know that feeling when one ad/pawn wants the healer more than you) breaking the limits of just being a "Main Tank" and can be "Off-Tank" as well. Yes we got AoEs that have added threat but having a skill with better aggro management is also good. (for future raids)

 

Character Name: Vinzy

Suggestion Type: New Skill - Javelin Throw (DPS Branch)

Suggestion Description: Beastmasters originated from Archers so having a long range skill would be nice and logical.

 

 

Now, do I look like just complaining and never suggest anything? As far I can see with those reports, none of these 4 made it up to your attention.


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#11 Turniper

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Posted 04 April 2014 - 05:24 PM

Those seem even more unrealistic than having 1def+20hp per vit tbh

 

Tiger Form: That could be possible, but new animations would have to be made and in general and the whole point of tiger is to be a speed boost. If you need the speed boost in combat then the points in tiger form could've been better used in beast charge. Your argument against the 1 def + 20 HP is that it's unrealistic for the devs to put it in because it's OP and not because it's actually OP, the same case could be made about this.

 

Beast Charge: The skill is pretty buggy, but instead of changing the mechanic it could just be fixed. Making it instant also takes out the roll and that's the best part.

 

Mass Taunt: Beast tornado has 10 hits. If you really want to OT that badly then put points into that and grab some pots, since those gain aggro and that's literally what every tank did pre-AoV to supplement their AoE threat.

 

Javelin Throw: How would I get it back though? And if I miss then do I have to go and pick it up?

 

The focus most people have right now for BMs is the high HP/defense/damage/heals. Yes, there are bugs and those are being targeted, along with the usefulness of certain skills, but when you compound it all together, a fixed BM is too strong and buffing everyone else is too unrealistic. This isn't a single player game and tbh, I'd rather have small balance changes here and there than wait for everyone and their mother to start complaining about how OP BMs are and then getting the hammer. Have you even seen the ranger threads?

 

 


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#12 Verinne

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Posted 04 April 2014 - 06:17 PM

Those seem even more unrealistic than having 1def+20hp per vit tbh

 

Tiger Form: That could be possible, but new animations would have to be made and in general and the whole point of tiger is to be a speed boost. If you need the speed boost in combat then the points in tiger form could've been better used in beast charge. Your argument against the 1 def + 20 HP is that it's unrealistic for the devs to put it in because it's OP and not because it's actually OP, the same case could be made about this.

 

Beast Charge: The skill is pretty buggy, but instead of changing the mechanic it could just be fixed. Making it instant also takes out the roll and that's the best part.

 

Mass Taunt: Beast tornado has 10 hits. If you really want to OT that badly then put points into that and grab some pots, since those gain aggro and that's literally what every tank did pre-AoV to supplement their AoE threat.

 

Javelin Throw: How would I get it back though? And if I miss then do I have to go and pick it up?

 

The focus most people have right now for BMs is the high HP/defense/damage/heals. Yes, there are bugs and those are being targeted, along with the usefulness of certain skills, but when you compound it all together, a fixed BM is too strong and buffing everyone else is too unrealistic. This isn't a single player game and tbh, I'd rather have small balance changes here and there than wait for everyone and their mother to start complaining about how OP BMs are and then getting the hammer. Have you even seen the ranger threads?

 

Lawl, the sarcasm my friend. Look at those inputs coming from you just because I'm complaining on your reports being one sided.

 

- The tigerform have already an attack animation, it even has a dancing one. I do not require an extra animation nor it doesn't really need an chuck norris-bruce lee-jackie chan-kungfu panda moves, a simple animation is acceptable, and my point is to see the skill getting more useful. There are times especially grinding you would prefer movement speed over attack+% or def&hp+%. 

 

- Beast Charge, you know how many times it trolls you on Round 4 or 5 in colo.

 

These two below, as far as I know, the discussions/suggestions thread are open for "new skill" concept. This isn't considered priority

but still a suggestion for a better class.

 

-Mass Taunt, Oh I have em maxed I don't think bms would miss maxing Beast Tornado, but I'm pretty sure on tanking you experience sometimes one or few boss minions would target healer than tank and offtank, If just one you can use provoke, but with two or more, this is part is what I'm looking at.
 

-Javelin Throw, from the type of spear itself, its a javelin, not a boomerang. Have you ever wondered why those archer/ranger never run out of arrows (unlike RO1)? Does the quiver carries infinite amount of arrow? or have you seen rangers/archers recycle arrows from dead corpses? That's how your logic responded to it ignoring the good point of having at least one long-range skill for the class.

 

They have been "unrealistic" because it is a "concept" skill lawl. 

 

So to sum it up with your response with all my suggestions, you've been missing all the points I've been making. The statements are short, have some time to look at it. Set aside your bitterness, be fair in representing the class.  :chomok01:  :chomok02:  :chomok03:  :chomok04:  :Emo_12:  :Emo_13:  :Emo_14:  :Emo_15:  :Emo_16:  :Emo_17:

Be an ear to your all fellow Beastmasters and a mouth for the devs.


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#13 Turniper

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Posted 04 April 2014 - 06:38 PM

There are a lot of things that would make the class better and million different possible suggestions, but suggesting something that's completely situational like a mass taunt for one or two missed mobs or attacks for tiger because you sometimes want to run faster. My already in game answers to those would be having a competent OT/dps or just using pots for the mass aggro. If you need extra speed occasionally while attacking then we have wind pots. If your issue is that you wish you could consistently keep up with a ranger while attacking at the same time then the solution would be playing a ranger.

 

A ranged attack is nice, but we have a gap closer. Though I remember thinking that it would be cool if the human form beast charge animation started with a spear throw that stunned which was then followed by the charge animation.

 

And being an ear for the class is the whole point of starting a bunch of threads trying to collect feedback. There are several for different purposes if you'd like to discuss this.


Edited by Turniper, 04 April 2014 - 06:40 PM.

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#14 Arbalist

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Posted 04 April 2014 - 07:59 PM

While I do recognize why you would want those types of skills, these suggestions might make us seem too similar to Assassins.
Tiger Form = Shadow Form (Or Hide + Hiding Exceed)
Beast Charge = Dark Illusion + Shadow Assault
Javelin Throw = Knife Throw

Let's not forget how similar our other skills are already:
Bear Form = Shadow Form
Feral Defense = Shadow Armor
Cruel Bite = Grimtooth
Beast Tornado + Fury Strike = Shadow Fang + Grimtooth

With Mass Taunt, both Warriors and Knights already have it so you could always consider picking up one of those classes as off-tank in future raids. 

Since you are suggesting these Verinne, how do you think these skills will interact with other classes and how will they react to us getting all these goodies?


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#15 Verinne

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Posted 05 April 2014 - 12:14 AM

There are a lot of things that would make the class better and million different possible suggestions, but suggesting something that's completely situational like a mass taunt for one or two missed mobs or attacks for tiger because you sometimes want to run faster. My already in game answers to those would be having a competent OT/dps or just using pots for the mass aggro. If you need extra speed occasionally while attacking then we have wind pots. If your issue is that you wish you could consistently keep up with a ranger while attacking at the same time then the solution would be playing a ranger.

 

A ranged attack is nice, but we have a gap closer. Though I remember thinking that it would be cool if the human form beast charge animation started with a spear throw that stunned which was then followed by the charge animation.

 

And being an ear for the class is the whole point of starting a bunch of threads trying to collect feedback. There are several for different purposes if you'd like to discuss this.

 

Oh it already came from you, there are lots of things for improvement, then there, they are my share of ideas. If you get my point then its good! If not then lets discuss it more in the discussion thread if you want. You ask me to suggest instead of complaining, there they are been posted a few weeks and days past, and I think you just ignored them.  

 

lemme quote this part from  your 1st report and 2nd of esau's: 

 

Popular Suggestions: 

 
We propose that lowering the Vit bonus to 1 vit = 1 def and instead of giving 15 hp turn it to 20 hp to compensate to the lowered 
 
Defense.

 

Popular? Really?

 

By "we", does that mean only both of you VCRs or you mean to speak for the whole BM community? Because if this "WE" is pertaining to the whole BM community, I think there's something wrong with it. Why you never put a statement that "its only our (VCRs) opinion BUT there are also players opposing it"

 

I was thinking the -def 1 point comes from Arbalist idea with his/her 1VIT:0Def/1Def proposal. And the HP part comes from TidusPeco (which isn't even a BM to begin with) Combining both an adjusting to your preference coming up with 1VIT:1Def/20HP and finalizing as "WE" when you never consider some of the opposing sides. If my assumptions are wrong, can you tell us whose idea does this 1VIT:1Def+20HP came from?

 

Even Arbalist doesn't like that 20HP, you just made up another thread today to further discuss it, but sadly you already propose that without others inputs.

 

Lemme quote this from your 2nd report:

 

 

Priority Fixes:

 
Cruel Bite heal is much stronger than it needs to be. One suggestion is changing the heal value to 25% of max HP, and another is 20% 
 
but with an added 10-20% of damage dealt.

 

Now this is Arbalist proposal, I've been opposing this idea since the time I've seen it, but a PRIORITY FIX? really? no one have ever oppose that? and you already consider this a priority fix?

 

 

To sum up my Personal thoughts,

What I want to see from your reports are "summary of what you have gathered here at the forums, and in-game, if BMs  agrees then state it, if some disagrees even if its one, please also state it." That way we can clearly see that you're our voice to the devs, not act like a filter and write only those you find acceptable. I'm not your boss to tell you what to do, nor your my supervisor on which you accept only the stuffs acceptable to you but please consider the whole community. There are lots of BMs you can see ingame and some doesn't even visit the forums. Extend your hands to those people too.

 

On the side note, 

With regards to my Mass Taunt and Tiger Form I've only stated an example scenario not limited to those, there would also be times you'll be tanking alone, I don't think it wouldn't hurt us to have them. And that mobility in Tiger Form, did you think it was that useful as of now? Wind pots yes I have plenty BMs getting less bullied in WoE, but those are 1min and 10mins only, even those aren't enough. That javelin throw, I never asked for it to be spammable, even a 1min/2min CD is acceptable as long as its a good nuking skill. And don't push me to rangers, I already have one.

 

 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

While I do recognize why you would want those types of skills, these suggestions might make us seem too similar to Assassins.
Tiger Form = Shadow Form (Or Hide + Hiding Exceed)
Beast Charge = Dark Illusion + Shadow Assault
Javelin Throw = Knife Throw

Let's not forget how similar our other skills are already:
Bear Form = Shadow Form
Feral Defense = Shadow Armor
Cruel Bite = Grimtooth
Beast Tornado + Fury Strike = Shadow Fang + Grimtooth

With Mass Taunt, both Warriors and Knights already have it so you could always consider picking up one of those classes as off-tank in future raids. 

Since you are suggesting these Verinne, how do you think these skills will interact with other classes and how will they react to us getting all these goodies?

 

Like your observation almost every class, regardless of being a DD or a Tank have basically same/similar skill set pattern. A form, buff, aoe (up to 10, up to 3 enemies), a dot, longrange skill, etc, some class lacking on those on which I came up with both ideas.

 

For Mass Taunt (Tanks), like wars and knights they can be both MT and OT, breaking that mentality of us BMs as "MT" only. We can MT/OT/DPS and even support heal once every certain secs. Mass Taunt will give us more stable aggro management and I don't think other tanks would complain for that.

 

For Javelin Throw, almost every class have at least 1 long range skill, except us (and wars, not sure) so proposing this would also benefit us and not overpowering other classes.

 

I myself as you know is contented with what we have as of now even though some things are broken, but if there's something I've wanted for the class then those above is what I would ask for. Like I said before, these aren't priority fix, just an idea that came from a common player.


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#16 Arbalist

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Posted 05 April 2014 - 01:00 AM

I suggest we nip this in the bud before we turn BM threads into Priest VCR topic. I admit sometimes I'm narrow minded and dismissive so I will apologize now in case any of my posts have been rude thus far. I think we're heading down a more aggressive path and need to refocus on continuing to use concrete evidence to back up our ideas. Arguing right now won't do us any good because the next class balance patch is primarily on the developer's ideas anyways and not as much on VCR reports. As it is right now, class bonuses need to be re-debated so can we please remove that from the reports for now and see where the developers are going with it first?

I was against the 1 Def and 20 HP combined effect but am fine with just the VIT= 20 HP proposal after reading Ursa's explanation. Realistically, I have no hopes that RO2 will implement my preferred HP decrease that I outlined above so I think the flat 20 HP is a decent compromise. I've always been on the side of a HP based class bonus, it's just that instead of buffing 1 class it was better for the long run in my opinion to lower the other class's HP. 

My Cruel Bite post was never a suggestion to nerf the heal. If you reread, it was merely to fix the scaling from levels 1-5. In the current state of the game, yes I would want 25% heal, but that is because of high Defense and broken Hit/Dodge rates. I also recognized it would not be accepted right away so I only wanted to put it out there for discussion. If we get an HP bonus, we would very likely need to lower the % heal to make it less effective, but let's save that debate for if and when the changes come.

We are all strongly opinionated, and there are only a few of us, so it makes sense to defend our individual ideas. Let's stay away from attacking each other however. I'm not expecting any bear hugs, but at least let's try to keep civil. I'll try to do my part as well. 


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#17 Verinne

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Posted 05 April 2014 - 01:44 AM

I'm just disappointed on how the reports where made not considering/stating that there are oppositions within, its like were never included.

 

I know your point with scaling of cruel bite per level, since you explained it, but the 20% 25% values came from you on which, he/she put it in his/her report (And priority fix omgudness!) 

 

I don't want to hold bitter feelings but, please consider us minorities in your next reports. There are also BMs in-game that doesn't visit the forums. Like I said, be an ear to us and mouth to the devs, Be a mediator, let devs know on every BMs opinion and then your opinion.

 

I'm looking forward to see your next report. Let's end the discussion here. My apologies for the rudeness I've made. 

 

 


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