11 replies to this topic

[xLottex]

Volunteer Class Representative Report

 

VCR Name(s) xLottex                               Date: 7/11/14

Class Soulmaker

 

Class Issue Summary:

The Soulmaker class has always had a stable skill base but their use has changed with the introduction of skill extensions and the change of the game from a quest/raid driven leveling system to a grind style leveling system which has reduced the usability of the links because of the constant movement of party members and the need to focus on DPS and healing hybrid builds. Although they have made a comeback now that Dark Whisper requires the party to concentrate in one location the links need a tune-up for our current playing style. Even though we have the same skill build availability as Sorcerers we are looked upon to only be healers, something that must be changed in order to allow Soulmakers that like to do DPS builds to succeed and have fun in the game, instead of replacing priests as the healers.

 

Popular Suggestions:

They’re still the same from the last VCR cycle, most Soulmakers want Cure to remain the same since it is the only defensive ability they have against stun builds, which nearly every class has now, and have Cure Pearls be changed to recover SP since there is no need for anymore healing skills and most only put a skill point into it in order to unlock the last two links and Soulmakers use an extensive amount of SP when they go Hybrid. To have links be used as regular buffs within an area so that we don’t have to recast them every time someone leaves the range of the links or to increase the range of the links to at least 20meters in order to have the coverage needed in current and future raids.

 

Priority Fixes:

Character animation being stuck at random times when casting skills preventing the player from casting their basic skills and forcing them to logout or exit to the character selection screen.

 

Magic Barrier buff found on Goblin Leader (Road of Bless) and Pokihoki (Chaos raid) instead of canceling out 50% of Magic and Ranged damage it is reducing nearly 100% damage for Soulmakers and only dealing 0 or 1 damage per attack.

 

 

General Feedback:

I must agree with other classes’ perspective of need to nerf the Soulmaker’s Cure skill but there must be an exchange between what is taken and what it’s replaced with. For example, if Cure is nerfed then the Soulmakers must either get a defense boost or receive more Vitality from their gear since the class has the least HP and Defense among all the other classes. This is especially important as more and more priests are going for DPS builds leaving the responsibility of healers to the Soulmakers and in order to carry out this task they must be able to keep themselves alive in order to heal the others. Now I must state that the majority of the imbalances that are present at the moment are due to the massive stats received through seed runes and refinements because no class should be able to hit the defense cap or be able to spam Sacrifice every 10 seconds due to high vigor.

 

Change Feedback:

Since the class has had an SP issue since the introduction of Master Levels, I’m glad to see the reduction on SP cost to cast the class’s basic skills past their initial max skill points. Although we did not receive the mentioned SP/HP recovery upon using the Soulmaker equivalent to Ymir child, Awake Soulmate, which has not relieved the entire SP problem but that is understandable since no class should have infinite SP, unlike Priests, although Soulmakers are being made to replace Priests as healers in the new Dark Whisper are since their healing skills agro more than the Soulmaker’s.

 

 

Edited by xLottex, 15 July 2014 - 03:34 PM.

[xLottex]

Please let me know if you have any issues with my ideas or any suggestions to make this better. This is welcomed since I was chosen to represent our community and would like to rightfully call myself one of your representatives. 

[StormHaven]

I see SMs say they need cure because it's the only way to keep alive but you've also got Restore and Restoration has healing skills. I don't really see a need to compensate a Cure nerf when it would just make you actual use your two other healing skills.

[Sestuplo]

I see SMs say they need cure because it's the only way to keep alive but you've also got Restore and Restoration has healing skills. I don't really see a need to compensate a Cure nerf when it would just make you actual use your two other healing skills.

 

It is I, the ever meddlesome Doppio!

 

 

Restore takes 2 seconds to cast, and if you cast it at the wrong time, it means that whoever you're trying to heal is dead. Restoration on the other hand doesn't heal much and suffers from falloff. It's kinda like saying that there's a need to nerf Multi-shot because then it would make rangers  focus on Arrow Shower or Poison Arrow.

 

 

That is to say that I'm not defending the claim, I'm pointing out where the claim's direction comes from.

Edited by Sestuplo, 16 July 2014 - 06:09 AM.

[StormHaven]

It is I, the ever meddlesome Doppio!

 

 

Restore takes 2 seconds to cast, and if you cast it at the wrong time, it means that whoever you're trying to heal is dead. Restoration on the other hand doesn't heal much and suffers from falloff. It's kinda like saying that there's a need to nerf Multi-shot because then it would make rangers  focus on Arrow Shower or Poison Arrow.

 

 

That is to say that I'm not defending the claim, I'm pointing out where the claim's direction comes from.

 

I see but then another solution would to move some of the power away from Cure and put it into Restoration and lower the Cast time on Restore? My concern with looking at SMs is that having a HoT as your main source of healing is extremely imbalanced since it requires very little work or timing for max effectiveness(low risk high reward), Cast it 3 times in 3seconds or less and you never have to really worry about healing again for 30seconds.

[Glukos]

I see but then another solution would to move some of the power away from Cure and put it into Restoration and lower the Cast time on Restore? My concern with looking at SMs is that having a HoT as your main source of healing is extremely imbalanced since it requires very little work or timing for max effectiveness(low risk high reward), Cast it 3 times in 3seconds or less and you never have to really worry about healing again for 30seconds.

 

if we concentrate on healing, we cant kill anyone in pvp. our finisher skill not very powerful also and we are already lack with defence and hp. did u see any priest trying to heal himself when doing pvp. They are stun you, put some dot and use ray of genesis and u are dead. if something went wrong and their heal drop too much. then restore full health and use ray of genesis(%1900 matk and 10 sec. cooldown) again. so i m not continue writing about priest since here is not priest forum. but as i said if we concentrate on healing we cant kill anyone in pvp.
 

[xLottex]

I see SMs say they need cure because it's the only way to keep alive but you've also got Restore and Restoration has healing skills. I don't really see a need to compensate a Cure nerf when it would just make you actual use your two other healing skills.

I agree with you that we rely too greatly on Cure but you need to understand that our class likely has the lowest HP and Defense in the game and having Cure as our main healing is to counteract the ongoing class builds towards stun locks. It gives us the chance and those who have been given the Cure stacks enough time to struggle desperately against a constant inability to do anything while taking damage. 

Edited by xLottex, 16 July 2014 - 09:24 AM.

[xLottex]

I see but then another solution would to move some of the power away from Cure and put it into Restoration and lower the Cast time on Restore? My concern with looking at SMs is that having a HoT as your main source of healing is extremely imbalanced since it requires very little work or timing for max effectiveness(low risk high reward), Cast it 3 times in 3seconds or less and you never have to really worry about healing again for 30seconds.

I wish that was true StormHaven but in PVP I'm forced to cast the cure every 10 secs in order to be safe when dealing with stun locking classes since it is likely that I will be dead if my Cure is at 15 secs or less when I am hit by the first stun. Also Cure is only a support heal when on PVP since most classes do more damage then what is healed through cure. 

[havocka]

Interesting to meet fellow Soulmaker who can also spam sacrifice every 10s and to keep Awaken Soulmate on (eternally) with the vigor link. 

 

Anyway, I don't agree with Cure being nerfed completely. Like what Lotte highlighted, Cure is a support heal only. Other than that, it is way too troublesome to keep track of stacking 3 Cures on everyone (lets say in a DW party). Yes, I can monitor the 30s duration but it is not logical to keep spamming Cure every 10 to 15s. For 1v1 pvp, I can keep myself alive with just Restoration and Cure Pearl with good timing. However, in situations against a high dmg Warrior or high crit Sorc pvp, SM are pretty much instant kill. 

 

In parties, I get sufficient threats from spamming Restoration to keep my priest alive. Plus, Restoration heals pretty decent and it crits, giving it more chances to get 5% more on links. I pop in Cure Pearls every now and then to save my fingers from spamming Cure. It's really all about the play style. 

 

What really needs to be fix at the moment (in my opinion), should be how the soul link works. The range is by far too little to work for how it is intended to be. Why don't the whole concept gets changed to a icon / animation being on-top of the party member's heads, as compared to actual links connected to the SM. Soullink can be activated by skill-toogle which automatically links the soullink skills to the party members. Maybe this will greatly improve on how an SM can actually divide its skill set between full support, dmg-dealer to hybrid. 

[Greven79]

I absolutely agree with StormHaven here.

 

Original Heals:

H. Wave: 34% (17% x2), 0.5sec casting time = 22,6% HPS

Heal: 43%, 1.0sec casting time = 21,5% HPS

Restore: 66%, 2.0sec casting time = 22% HPS

 

So all three support classes can heal the same amount of damage per second (HPS). Compared to the usual damaging skills:

 

Lightning Bolt: 22%, no casting time = 22.0% DPS

Holy Light: 39%, 1.0sec casting time = 19,5% DPS

 

it should be obvious that these healing skills were as powerful as the damaging skills. This means that a such a support character could easily outheal all the damage from a single source.

 

In raids, you could either deal damage or heal, but not both at the same time, except for the HoTs:

 

Land of Recovery: ~10sec duration; 22% heal (11% x2)

Renovatio: ~10sec duration; 22% heal

Cure: 30sec duration. Heal was increasingly effective, (planned to be) something like that

 

Duration in sec:

1~5; 12%

6~10: 15,5%

11~15: 19%

16~20: 22,5%

21~25: 26,0%

26~30: 29,5%

Average: 20,75%

 

So all three HoTs were equally powerful, but already overpowered: 40% as effective as the healing skills mentioned earlier, but without the need to activate them in quick succession. No other passive or boost skill (Sacrament, Archangel, etc.) could ever compete, so EVERY player would max them.

 

And even if a Warrior or Rogue would have the same ATK as a healer, the typical 10~15% DoTs couldn't compete with these HoTs. So all of them should have been nerfed a long time ago (even in LotS).

 

Making Cure stackable was ridiculous. That made it clearly overpowered, especially with the additional skill levels. A total 504% (= 252% per second) for three stacks makes it more powerful than most of the normal attack and more effective than the heal skills I've mentioned. A Crecentia can easily outheal any damage without doing anything most of the time. And this regards the "but I need to recast it every 10sec for safety reasons" argument as well, since it still leaves you with 90% of your time free to do other things.

 

Yes, repetitive stun is an issue, as well as the high one-shot ratio. But both issues need to be addressed on their own and shouldn't be used as an argument to keep the Cure as overpowered as it is.

 

So StormHaven was right to state that it is advisable to nerf Cure and to boost other healing skills instead. However, I would neither choose Restore nor Restoration. (For the reasons given here)

_______________

 

Edit: Since the cooldown of Restore was called a problem, although I've already proved that the HPS (heal per second) is similar to a Heal, I hereby suggest to swap Heal with Restore. The Priests simply have more skills to reduce or bypass the cooldown (Gloria & Suffragium and maybe even Aspersio).

Edited by Greven79, 06 August 2014 - 12:17 PM.

[Glukos]

@Greven79, well i seeing u almost every class forum but mostly nobody agreeing with you. Because u have some knowledge about classes  but u dont have experience. Firstly

Original Heals:

H. Wave: 34% (17% x2), 0.5sec casting time = 22,6% HPS

Heal: 43%, 1.0sec casting time = 21,5% HPS

Restore: 66%, 2.0sec casting time = 22% HPS

 

About this; Pirests can heal critical 3 times  Heal with every aspersio. But they dont using this skill too much because they have renovatio and highness heal. both of them instant cast.  And sorceress have heal 2x with earth emblem.Also they have meditation skill which is increasing critical chance. And they have rejuvenation(instant cast, %540 heal.)

 

Lightning Bolt: 22%, no casting time = 22.0% DPS

Holy Light: 39%, 1.0sec casting time = 19,5% DPS

 

this is sm forum why are u comparing sorc and priest. also sorc are using fireball, they stopped using lightinin bolt long ago. And also they are lvl5 skills damage. try compare lvl10 skills

 

And also our aoe heal is joke when compared to other class.

 

sm's restoration: at lvl1 %191 matk heal and %20 increase every lvl up. at lvl 10 heal about %390 (5 people)

priest highness heal: at lvl1 %435 matk heal and %50 increase every lvl up. at lvl10 heal about %890(5 people)(with aspersio, effect is more)

priest's sanctuary:10 m radius heal all party and raid members. at lvl1 %592 heal every 2 sec.  at lvl5 heal %870 every 2 sec.(with aspersio, effect is more)

Sorc deluge: hp increase and heal like hell.

Sorc LoR: %220 heal evey 2 sec. and this skill eternal skill.

 

Cure is our only good healing skill. others are joke compared to other support classes. Also i dont want to nerf cure and boost other skills. İf they are gonna nerf cure, then give us some hp and defense

Edited by Glukos, 28 July 2014 - 12:55 PM.

[Greven79]

I first made quite a rude reply, but I realized that you have no clue what I was talking about.
 
Before we start: I've made my FS priest more than a year ago and it was - at least for a longer period - my main character.  A close friend made a Soulmaker later - originally designed as a FS char - and both of us had a Sorcerer as well. So I think I know the classes quite well, but feel free to stick to insults, if you're lacking other options... I got used to that. But I hope we can end the personal discrediting and continue:
_______________________________
 
First of all, I differentiate between pre-AoV and post-AoV, because that marks a fundamental shift in the game balance. I use this to remind players what is lost. Things like "Original Heals" refer to the LotS situation. Second, the Sorcerer received an overhaul early in the game: It's healing skills were made half as effective, but the healing bonus of Earth Emblem was raised from 10% to 100% (x2). That's why I include the Emblem in all comparisons (see highlighted text). It seems you've missed that

H. Wave: 34% (17% x2), 0.5sec casting time = 22,6% HPS
Heal: 43%, 1.0sec casting time = 21,5% HPS

 

I also tried to show that none of the pre-AoV damaging skills was superior and that all the three main healing skills (Heal, Healing Wave and Restore) were equally powerful (HPS) and could compete with the damaging skills. Since you've criticized my Lightning Bolt reference, here's a more detailed pre-AoV list:
 
Lightning Bolt: 22% damage, no casting time = 22.0% DPS
Cold Bolt: 37% damage, 0.5sec casting time = 24.6% DPS
Firebolt: 49% damage, 1.0sec casting time = 24.5% DPS
Fireball: 56% initial (Burn = 30% of initial => 16,8%) = 72,8% total, 2.0sec casting time = 24.3% DPS
 
Holy Light: 39%, 1.0sec casting time = 19,5% DPS
Charge Arrow: 45%, 1.0sec casting time = 22,5% DPS
 
Bash // Double Attack // Raging Blow: = 25,0% DPS
 
You see, pre-AoV was quite balanced. All the Sorcerer/Wizard skills had the same DPS and not even the Fireball was broken. And please compare these values with the HPS of the healing skills!
_______________________________
 
Aspersio as a boost skill:
Most classes have skills that accumulate a certain type of stack (combo points, pyro stacks, etc.) on a successful strike. The Priest on contrast uses Aqua Benedicta to get 3 stacks and - also unlike other classes - has to cast Aspersio to be able to consume them. The following is true for both pre-AoV and post-AoV:
 
Average HPS increase for a Priest using Aspersio: 20~25%
Average DPS increase for a Knight consuming Auras: 20~25%
 
Please don't make me explain / calculate that in more detail!
 
The Sorcerer and Soulmaker don't have Aspersio and don't use stacks, that's true.

But they use specific trigger. Earth Emblem creates a HoT on a critical hit. The Soulmaker uses the soullink and awake triggers insead. (Awake:Soulmate f.e.recovers 6% HP on a critical hit). The average bonus depends on your crit. chance and it's debatable if it results in a 20~25% boost like Aspersio does. But using Aspersio as an argument for a 'per se' inbalance isn't correct.
_______________________________
 
To get to the post-AoV situation:  The maximum level of a few skills was increased. This affects all classes equally. I don't know how the devs decided which skill to improve, but it seems they've chosen the AoE skills and the skills that were preferred by Coloseum players.
 
For a FS Priest: +40% for Highness Heal; about +5% for Heal (via Gloria).
For a FS Soulmaker: Both Restoration and Cure were improved by 40% and somehow Cure was made stackable.
For a FS Sorcerer: not a single improvement.

 

The min time between two Aspersios was reduced, but the Priests can't use it more often (still 3x per 120sec), so the overall HPS hasn't changed. The winner is the Soulmaker.
_______________________________
 
We get to the present discussion: A comparison of all three healing classes - source of all the insults and red color abusal:
 

sm's restoration: at lvl1 %191 matk heal and %20 increase every lvl up. at lvl 10 heal about %390 (5 people)
priest highness heal: at lvl1 %435 matk heal and %50 increase every lvl up. at lvl10 heal about %890(5 people)(with aspersio, effect is more)

 
Restoration has a cooldown of 5sec - Highness Heal a cooldown of 10sec. Ergo, Restoration can be used twice as often and therefore should be only half as efective. In reality, it's only 44% as effective both at lvl 1 and lvl 10, not 50%. Is this really worth a complain? It's a 10~15% drawback that's negated by the other buffs & links.
 

Sorc LoR: %220 heal evey 2 sec. and this skill eternal skill.

 
LoR is a zone effect. That means you lose your mobility. Putting a single Cure stack on each party member also creates an 'eternal' heal effect and is similar effective. The difference: The whole team stays mobile! And because LoR has the 10sec duration and a 1sec casting time, the total effort to keep it running is similar to recasting Cure.
 

priest's sanctuary:10 m radius heal all party and raid members. at lvl1 %592 heal every 2 sec.  at lvl5 heal %870 every 2 sec.(with aspersio, effect is more)
Sorc deluge: hp increase and heal like hell.

 
Glad we made it to this point and I really mean this in a positive way!
 
This statement was the cause for many debates I had pre-AoV about whether a Soulmaker could be considered a full healer and competitive to Priests. The Soulmaker doesn't have Sanctuary, but has Immunity. The heals are spreaded much more and the average is lower.

 

The HP bonus / damage reduction you've mentioned was only a side note back then, because a Soullink::Revive generates a 10% damage reduction as well and the SM buffs / links were considered quite powerful.
 
But even this drawback doesn't justify a stackable cure. Like StormHaven said, other skills should get boosted. For me, that's Immunity and Cure Pearls.

• The AoE damage/heal of Immunity isn't more effective than Warrior's Brandish Storm. It has a bigger area of effect, but also a 10sec cooldown.
  So IMO, this skill desperately requires three addtional skill levels and an increased AoE effect. A quick thought:
  • up to 700% to all targets.
     
• Even more than Immunity, Cure Pearls are in need of an overhaul. IMO, the best option to create something like a Sanctuary // Deluge. A quick thought:
  • 30sec cooldown;
  • 60sec until a player can trigger the pearls again;
  • up to 550% recovered every 2sec (10sec duration)

 

Now you might see that I am not talking about 'nerfing' the Soulmaker, but about making Cure more balanced towards other SM skills.

Edited by Greven79, 06 August 2014 - 12:33 PM.