8 replies to this topic

[rerp]

What does it take to hit the defense cap for Priests? With Himmz or Cazars, how much more seeds and hones will you need over the alternative? I'm going to start grinding again, and now I'm reconsidering if Priest really should be the first char I'm working on. I'm considering if I should go with a more economical/practical character for now. I'm dirt poor, btw.

[xLuc]

Just knowing that a priest can hit defense cap makes me want to cry. RO2 what have you become? 

[Arbalist]

At level 80 (ML 30) you would need 11010 Defense to have 75% Defense (unless the cap was changed). No clue what the stats are on Cazar gear but Priest Himmelmez gives you 1834 Def , so you would need 9176 additional Def to reach cap. You would need some refining to reach or get near the cap. Seeds won't help you reach the cap because Priest doesn't get any Defense bonuses from stats. 

Defense Formula:

Spoiler

Defense%=Defense/((Defense*.01)+(Level*.35)+8.7)
*Level is calculated from 1-80 so if you are master level you would use 51-80

Edited by Arbalist, 27 September 2014 - 11:34 AM.

[Sestuplo]

Himmelmez gear, when refined to +20, hits 66% defense. At that point in time if you honed entirely for defense you would only gain an extra 1 or 2% defense.

Edited by Sestuplo, 27 September 2014 - 03:15 PM.

[rerp]

Just knowing that a priest can hit defense cap makes me want to cry. RO2 what have you become? 

 

Well, I don't think it does, especially based on their replies. Lol

[4458130508113924833]

Still 66% defense for a Priest it's, well. Wrong.

[Greven79]

At level 80 (ML 30) you would need 11010 Defense to have 75% Defense (unless the cap was changed). No clue what the stats are on Cazar gear but Priest Himmelmez gives you 1834 Def , so you would need 9176 additional Def to reach cap. You would need some refining to reach or get near the cap. Seeds won't help you reach the cap because Priest doesn't get any Defense bonuses from stats. 

Defense Formula:

Spoiler

Defense% = Defense /( (Defense*0.01) + (Level*0.35) + 8.7)

// Level is calculated from 1-80 so if you are master level you would use 51-80

 

I'm not sure, if that formula is still correct. But if that's the case and Setuplo is also correct about Priests "hitting 66% defense", we have the following situation:

 

Priest with  + 0 Himmelmez: 1834 defense = 33.3% defense rate [light armor]

Priest with +20 Himmelmez: 7124 defense = 66.0% defense rate
Priest that reaches the cap: 11011 defense = 75.0% defense rate

 

That means that the refinement raised the defense by 5290 points... an increase of almost 290%.

So it's easy to see the most broken part: It's the refinement system and the greed behind it.

 

Important:

Even with player lvl 100, such a Priest would still have a 62% defense rate in +20 Himmelmez. That's only a 4% decrease after 20 levels.

___________

 

For the other classes:

 

Without refinement:

Ran / Rog / Crec / Ass (BM): 3557 defense = 49.2% defense rate [medium armor]

Warrior / Knight w/o Shield: 7115 defense = 66.0% defense rate [heavy armor]

 

Important:

That's twice as much defense for medium armor (compared to cloth // light armor), and four times as much defense for heavy armor.

Also note that a Warrior has almost as much defense without any refinement as a Priest in fully refined gear.

 

With +20 refinement:

Ran / Rog / Crec / Ass (BM): 13817 defense = 79.0% defense rate

Warrior / Knight w/o Shield: 27637 defense = 88.3% defense rate

 

Important:

At ML50, a Warrior would still have a defense rate of 86.3%. A decline of 2% after 20 levels.

 

A Priest would receive three times as much damage as a Warrior. So they should be glad there's a defense cap!

But wait, Gravity decided to add armor penetration for some reasons unknown. If we apply a 16% penetration:

 

With +20 refinement & 16% armor pen.:

Wiz / Sorc / Pri / SM (monk): 50% defense rate

Ran / Rog / Crec / Ass (BM): 63% defense rate

Warrior / Knight w/o Shield: 72% defense rate

 

Once again, Priests & co. will receive twice as much damage... and that's how the experts at Gravity try to balance the game.

___________

 

All in all, that's why I keep repeating myself over and over that we need a complete overhaul of the defense system. The formula mentioned above can be rewritten as:

Defense% = 100*def /(def + 870 + 35*lvl) 

So in order to keep a 50% defense rate, your defense has to be equal to 870+(35*lvl). That's 905 defense at Lvl 1; 3670 defense at ML30; and will be only 4370 at ML50. In other words, your defense has to get better by 35pts [= 7pts per gear part] per level for you to keep the status quo.

 

35pts means nothing!

 

Because this value is strictly linear, a simple increase or decrease will not help on the long run. It would be better to use the squared player level or more preferrably an exponential scale x^lvl instead. The latter is really interesting, because it's like an interest of interests. You only have to define a percentual benefit (f.e. 7% more defense per level => 1.07^lvl).

Defense% = 100*def /(def + 16.37*1.07^lvl)

This formula is defined to keep the current defense rates, but it would take ~14k defense to achieve 50% as a ML50 character, not just 4370. In addition, low level characters could also achieve a noticeable defense rates.

 

My approach however would be a bit different. I'd rather reduce the defense rates to an average of 20~25% in order to better balance Heals, HoTs, DoTs and armor penetration in one go. Then of course, the damage formula has to be adjusted accordingly.

Edited by Greven79, 29 September 2014 - 04:02 AM.

[Sestuplo]

With Himmelmez Gear it is very hard, if even possible, to hit the defense cap. Because Cazar is only a slight upgrade to Himmelmez, the same can be said of Cazar.

[Greven79]

With Himmelmez Gear it is very hard, if even possible, to hit the defense cap. Because Cazar is only a slight upgrade to Himmelmez, the same can be said of Cazar.

 

Wasn't commenting on that statement, but about the impact of refinement. You can see that in your sceenshot as well:

 

Defense = 475+1287

 

The refinement therefore increased the base value by about 270%. Without the 469pts from honing, your defense rate would drop by roughly 1.5%.

So even the 0.57% PvP damage reduction honing is worth more than the ~160 defense (for PvP purposes).

Edited by Greven79, 29 September 2014 - 06:27 AM.