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What is Armor Penetration, really is?


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#1 TbatmanT

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Posted 01 December 2014 - 03:12 PM

just like the question above ^

 

I asked a lot of in-game players about the armor penetration...thingy..buff. And I got several different answers.

 

For instance,

Armor Penetration is a buff for ignoring a partial of opponent's defense, based on opponent's defense.

 

In big picture >>>  Opponent's defense is 1000 and you have 5% armor penetration. Therefore, [1000 - (1000 x 0.05)] = 950

                             In conclusion, armor penetration reduces opponent's total armor. (think of how the power rune works on weapon)

 

 

Another example,

Armor Penetration is a buff for chances to ignore opponent's defense.

 

In big picture >>> Opponent's defense is 1000 and you have 5% armor penetration. Therefore, you have a 5% success chance
                             of breaking your opponent's defense based on the previous example ( like the Shock rune or cure rune ) .

 

More example,

Armor Penetration is not a buff. It's just a fancy "word" to scare the living hell out of the other classes.

 

In big picture >>> cross impact from hiding is x2 damage, sometimes crti = Blame the armor penetration.Go try yourself, take out the
                            penetration buff and try hiding+cross impact. ( like batman walking into a bar )

 

( there are more examples..like dumb examples, so not going to tell you)

 

Personal example <<< you know those skull warriors at the DWU? They have a built-in armor penetration buff. When you change channels, you will become invincible for a duration. Then when you trigger a mob, it will either failed hitting you or hitting you with a small amount of damage(even though they hit like a truck). But wait a second, you are still 'invincible' from changing channels, the skull warrior CAN'T deal damage to you.

( expect this super-mega-ultra-run-on sentence )

@@So in conclusion, Armor penetration is a buff that ignores a partial of opponent's defense, so small that you think that it's based on success rate, but mostly it's a crit, which most classes are complaining to remove the penetration buff cuz it's fancy, which makes it scary.

[ why not delete G-fist or adjust it 'properly']

I don't know that answer, that is why im asking. Those are just opinions based on dozen of people.

 

So tell meh

 

P.S.

 I still hate monks so much.


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#2 KuroiKoneko

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Posted 01 December 2014 - 03:35 PM

penetration just ignore some % of target defense how i know

just try to hit same mob\player with same skill with and without Shadow Claw\Ymir skill and you will see the difference

p.s. how i know new legendary gear set will have penetration on all gear piece and classes, lol
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#3 TbatmanT

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Posted 01 December 2014 - 03:59 PM

penetration just ignore some % of target defense how i know
 

 

Ignore some %. Do you mean that if we have 5% penetration, we can ignore 5% defense of the opponent? just like example #1.

 

my statement:

Armor Penetration is a buff for ignoring a partial of opponent's defense, based on opponent's defense.

 

In big picture >>>  Opponent's defense is 1000 and you have 5% armor penetration. Therefore, [1000 - (1000 x 0.05)] = 950

                             In conclusion, armor penetration reduces opponent's total armor. (think of how the power rune works on weapon)

 

It's just reducing 50 armor from 1000 armor(950 remaining).

 

If that is the case, why do a lot of people say that it should be removed?  They say it's a HUGE buff OMG

 

Inform me though...like specifically and clearly. Im sure a lot of people would like to know and understand the basis of this..buff


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#4 Arbalist

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Posted 01 December 2014 - 04:06 PM

Not exactly like #1, but close.
It ignores the % itself.

This example is assuming you and your opponent are the same level (defense % gets messy at different levels because they require different raw defense values).

Target Defense = 75%
Your Penetration = 5%
The game will treat it as you attacking a target with 70% defense (75 minus 5).

5% can amount to several hundreds/thousands of raw defense for some classes, which is why it's overpowered in most cases.


Edited by Arbalist, 01 December 2014 - 04:08 PM.

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#5 TbatmanT

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Posted 01 December 2014 - 04:13 PM

hahha that explains it, arbalist.

 

Some of the opinions that I received came from...some well know people, VCR's... and some strong sins. 

 

Im noob about this, but what happen to the other 25% target defense ?   ( I hope it's not the armor rune is the missing 25% )


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#6 MingMei

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Posted 01 December 2014 - 04:15 PM

Not exactly like #1, but close.
It ignores the % itself.

This example is assuming you and your opponent are the same level (defense % gets messy at different levels because they require different raw defense values).

Target Defense = 75%
Your Penetration = 5%
The game will treat it as you attacking a target with 70% defense (75 minus 5).

5% can amount to several hundreds/thousands of raw defense for some classes, which is why it's overpowered in most cases.

 

this might be a little off topic but i read somewhere 

that 75% is the max def rate

i see people go above that value 

if thats the case then 5% pene is useless against people with 80% def rate? 


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#7 Arbalist

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Posted 01 December 2014 - 04:18 PM

It was just an example number but I chose it because 75% is the defense cap in the game. You can get over 75% but the game only reduces that much damage at max (excluding runes). Getting over 75% is one of the methods to counter penetration, but mostly only available to tank classes.

Examples to make it easier to understand:

 

Scenario 1:
Target Defense = 77%
Your Penetration = 5%
Game will treat it as attacking a target with 72% defense, because 77 - 5 = 72

 

Scenario 2:
Target Defense = 80%
Your Penetration = 5%
Game will treat it as attacking a target with 75% defense, because 80-5 = 75
 

Scenario 3:
Target Defense = 82%
Your Penetration = 5%
Game will treat it as attacking a target with 75% defense. 82 - 5 is 77, but because cap is 75%, the leftover 2% defense is not considered


Edited by Arbalist, 01 December 2014 - 04:24 PM.

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#8 KuroiKoneko

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Posted 01 December 2014 - 04:19 PM

armor rune decrease total ANY damage, not like defense

for example: without 20% armor rune you will get 10000 damage and with 20% armor rune you get 8000 damage
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#9 Arbalist

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Posted 01 December 2014 - 04:23 PM

Yeah armor rune is an entirely different thing. It reduces the final damage number after all the penetration, defense etc. is calculated.

EDIT: Didn't want to double post, so I'll add this here.

The other argument against penetration is calculated linearly whereas defense has diminishing returns. It is much easier to increase penetration % while much harder to increase defense to mitigate it.


Edited by Arbalist, 01 December 2014 - 04:32 PM.

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#10 TbatmanT

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Posted 01 December 2014 - 04:29 PM

So... does the penetration buff have a success rate like hit or crit?   I'm asking cuz if you take a look at crit, you may and you many not crit.

 

 

 

 

off topic below .

armor rune decrease total ANY damage, not like defense

 

wouldn't that explain the missing 25% ?

 

devs: we only allow 75% defense rate

ppl  : what about the other 25% ?

devs: cant, only 75% is allowed

ppl : but but...that doesnt make sense.. where is 100% ?

 


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#11 Arbalist

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Posted 01 December 2014 - 04:37 PM

Penetration is on at all times, as long as you deal damage.

The missing 25% has no real explanation. It's just an arbitrary cap placed so that we don't have 100% damage reduction. This cap is actually a remnant from LOTS era, but they brought it over to AOV because devs are lazy. There's caps on other stats too to prevent people from doing stuff like instant casting (Cast Speed cap is 80%). Most formulas use the same diminishing returns, which also act as a sort of cap because it'd make it impossible to reach certain numbers (you approach it but will never touch it).

Also, read my edit above for the other reason Penetration is overpowered.


Edited by Arbalist, 01 December 2014 - 04:38 PM.

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#12 KuroiKoneko

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Posted 01 December 2014 - 04:47 PM

Spoiler

Edited by KuroiKoneko, 01 December 2014 - 04:49 PM.

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#13 TbatmanT

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Posted 01 December 2014 - 04:49 PM

Scenario 3:
Target Defense = 82%
Your Penetration = 5%
Game will treat it as attacking a target with 75% defense. 82 - 5 is 77, but because cap is 75%, the leftover 2% defense is not considered

 

for instance > just to be clear, if a monk has defense rate above 80%, 5% penetration from a sin is not a problem. But if a monk has his/her defense rate less than 75%, then 5% penetration is something...  correct?

 

....

im still not sure why people want penetration out rather than g-fist, which can 1hit KO most classes.

Yea..i hate monks


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#14 Arbalist

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Posted 01 December 2014 - 05:03 PM

Spoiler

You're magic ;D I dunno lol but I swear my Cold Bolt capped at 0.2 0.1 second cast time.

 

for instance > just to be clear, if a monk has defense rate above 80%, 5% penetration from a sin is not a problem. But if a monk has his/her defense rate less than 75%, then 5% penetration is something...  correct?

 

....

im still not sure why people want penetration out rather than g-fist, which can 1hit KO most classes.

Yea..i hate monks

Yeah. The problem however is that it'll be much easier for your Assassin to get 1% more penetration and much harder for the target to get 1% defense. Eventually, growth of penetration will outpace the growth of defense. 

People (well me), want both penetration and g-fist out/nerfed. Both contribute to the growing power creep so both are problems, not just one. It's just that there's no longer any trust that developers can balance all classes at once. They always do patches in small bits so things appear to be a bigger nerf/buff relative to all things else when people ignore the big picture.


Edited by Arbalist, 01 December 2014 - 11:36 PM.

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#15 KuroiKoneko

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Posted 01 December 2014 - 05:11 PM

You're magic ;D I dunno lol but I swear my Cold Bolt capped at 0.2 second cast time.

that's because cold bolt have already low cast time lol
try on JT/Fireball or Ymir

Spoiler

Edited by KuroiKoneko, 01 December 2014 - 05:18 PM.

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#16 Arbalist

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Posted 01 December 2014 - 05:28 PM

lol fine I'll log on after patch to test. I might need to skill reset for wind emblem and pyromaniac x_x


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#17 KuroiKoneko

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Posted 01 December 2014 - 05:32 PM

well, one more electro-type wizard :d
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#18 Arbalist

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Posted 01 December 2014 - 11:38 PM

I'm right, woo lol.

Vigor Cap = 75%
Def Cap = 75%
Cast Speed Cap = 80%

Your character stat window will show values over those caps, but your skills will adhere to the cap.


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#19 deathdelete

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Posted 02 December 2014 - 08:09 AM

I wish i was 75% vigor ._.
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#20 5318130516144610857

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Posted 02 December 2014 - 01:14 PM

Yeah armor rune is an entirely different thing. It reduces the final damage number after all the penetration, defense etc. is calculated.

EDIT: Didn't want to double post, so I'll add this here.

The other argument against penetration is calculated linearly whereas defense has diminishing returns. It is much easier to increase penetration % while much harder to increase defense to mitigate it.

 

 I didn't know that, are you sure of what you are saying? I always thought defense would be linear just like any other stat is, or am I wrong and all have DR?


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#21 Arbalist

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Posted 02 December 2014 - 02:14 PM

I'm 100% positive. Defense%=Defense/((Defense*.01)+(Level*.35)+8.7) is the basic defense formula. Level ranges from 1-80, feel free to test it for yourself. Most formulas have DR after AOV update and most stats use the same stupid formula (ie. Haste, Vigor, Cast Speed all have the exact formula).

There's a slight variation of this formula that includes penetration, though I don't have it on hand. Our old guild leader has all the formulas figured out, but he's retired now. That's basically all we did in our spare time, tests upon tests, because of the lack of interesting content.

For penetration = linear, I'm only 75% positive lol, I totally forgot what he said before and I was too lazy to download our homemade stat calculator which has all the formulas.


Edited by Arbalist, 02 December 2014 - 02:15 PM.

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#22 5318130516144610857

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Posted 02 December 2014 - 02:40 PM

Thank you for sharing the DR formula! It would also be great if you could one of these days share the knowledge and give us the penetration formula aswell.  :P

Cheers!


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#23 TbatmanT

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Posted 02 December 2014 - 05:31 PM

meh,....I know, this buff ignores defense, but ... I still don't understand those will be calculated and already applied. What are the differences?

 

Penetration

It is a stat that ignoring target's defense

  -    The penetration rate will be calculated by 1% according to same level.

Additional penetrating rate is already applied by 2%. 

 

For penetration rate according to same level,  is  it that you will have 1% penetration when fighting like ML1 vs ML1?

 

then what is "Additional penetrating rate is already applied" ? is it like you have 2% penetration when fighting ML 20 vs ML14 ?

 

*I honestly have no clue


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#24 7397141015204128823

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Posted 02 December 2014 - 10:18 PM

Woah! Arbalist is god!

 

But I share the same confusion with what TbatmanT posted last (above).

 

Here's my current Penetration stat ML20 Sin - Shadow Claw buffed

 

Penetration     278

It is a stat that ignoring target's defense

  -    The penetration rate will be calculated by 6.10% according to same level.

Additional penetrating rate is already applied by 10.77%.

 

I have the same question as above. And here's how i interpret it:

 

1) If against ML20 I will do 6.10% + 10.77% Penetration. Total of 16.87% Penetration to the same level target.

2) If against other levels (not the same level) - I will do 10.77% only.

 

And another question with the "according to same level" phrase. Does this include monsters? so at ML20, my same level is Level 70 mobs? If I fight against a Mummy (Level 67), this "according to same level" does not apply?

 

Same question with Defense since it also has "according to same level" phrase.

 

Thanks in advance!

 


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#25 Greven79

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Posted 05 December 2014 - 01:56 AM

If you compare it with crit. chance, cast speed or vigor, both percentages are added together.

 

The first number usually shows how the stat value is translated into a percentage.

That formula usually takes your level into account (so it might get lower if you level-up),

but the result is true all the time and against any type of monster.

 

The second number usually shows fix bonuses from skills, cards, etc. Level doesn't matter.

So even if you level up, the second value should stay the same.

 

An example - Crit. chance:

Gear only grants you a critical value. The total value is shown in the top right corner.

Then, that value is translated into the first percentage shown. It might vary a lot.

If you're a thief with Mark of Genecide, you get a 10% bonus to critical rate.

This bonus never changes, so it's shown in the second percentage.

 

But your effective crit. chance is always the sum of both percentages.

 

To make it sure: I haven't tested it with penetration myself, I'm just assuming a pattern here.

We're talking about the cream-of-the-crop programmers, so it might be different.

 

You can test it however, if you know a knight, warrior or monk with 90% defense rate.

Your friend should then put off his gear step by step until your damage get's up.

That marks the percentage 'absorbed' by having more than 75% defense rate.

You can then extrapolate how much penetration is really used.

 

Spoiler

Edited by Greven79, 05 December 2014 - 02:50 AM.

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