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Add Penetration Buff to Rogues


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#1 chronojxf007

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Posted 03 December 2014 - 06:15 AM

Been thinking if rogues are better burst dps if penetration buff is added in Unstable Doping (should be lesser than Assassins have), but of course there should be considerable nerfs on Rogue skills. What do you guys think of my suggestion? :)


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#2 xLuc

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Posted 03 December 2014 - 07:51 AM

Go the heck to sleep...


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#3 chronojxf007

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Posted 07 December 2014 - 02:37 PM

Don't spoil my forum post please, you're not helping  :P   :heh:


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#4 deathdelete

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Posted 07 December 2014 - 11:08 PM

Hell no
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#5 Cartian

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Posted 07 December 2014 - 11:45 PM

When sin got 250 penetration buff there is nothing done to nerf their other dps skills, why do you think we need a nerf in order to get more penetration?

 

In fact their penetration buff comes with the cross impact buff too.  Making them easily one shot anything out of hide.  While grimtooth now took it to a whole new level.

 

Don't know why you created a new topic.  I made a post about this months ago in feedback.  Rogue need that 250 penetration, no reason that only sins got buffed.  It make us fall behind in dps, at least for future grind.  What were the devs thinking when they decided to buff sins only.  Because everyone is a sin nobody plays rogue nobody will complain?


Edited by Cartian, 07 December 2014 - 11:53 PM.

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#6 TensaZangetsu01

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Posted 08 December 2014 - 06:36 AM

up... hahhaha.....WTF a lame class=Rogue     haizz


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#7 Greven79

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Posted 08 December 2014 - 08:17 AM

First of all, armor penetration is just a different form of a damage bonus. The effectiveness depends on the defense rate of the target:

 

Shadow Claw (5% penetration):

50%  defense rate => 10% damage bonus

66%  defense rate => 15% damage bonus

75%  defense rate => 20% damage bonus

80%  defense rate => no bonus

 

Due to that and in regard of the fact additional defense gets decreasingly effective, it's one of the worst forms of a damage bonus. Even power-runes are more balanced.

 

Most arguments about buffed/nerfed rogues/assassins are also highly questionable: Both rogues and assassins benefit from Cross Impact, both use Mark of Genocide. But they also have their unique class bonuses that makes it hard to justify the 'better' benefits.

 

Rogues:

  • +40% damage via Mark of Shadow
  • up to +30% ATK / +20% crit. chance via Unstable Doping
  • re-cloak via Smoke Bomb
  • cooldown reset + free combo points via Dirty Plan
  • additional trigger to bypass combo point requirements

Assassin:

  • +5% armor penetration via Shadow Claw
  • +30% ATK / +30% speed via Shadow Form
  • lower cooldown on skills (Shadow Explosion, etc.)
  • faster combo point generation via Shadow Assault

So if I were to chooes who would be faster in killing Ratmaster, it wouldn't be an easy call for me.

That's why from time to time, only certain sub-aspects are used to justify any sort of change.

 

F.e. it's possible to argue that as long as a Rogue one-shots with Cross Impact, he can easily re-cloak to get a faster 2nd kill and then use Dirty Plan for a possible fast 3rd kill. He might therefore be superior in taking out 'easy prey'. The Assassin on contrast would have to trigger "end of combat" first, which can range from automatically to quite hard.

 

The real problem behind these kind of arguments is that (beside the questionable hyposesis) there is no connection between the issue and the suggested solution.

  • A lack in overall damage can be caused by an unfair cooldown of Shadow Explosion or an underwhelming cooldown of Mark of Shadow
  • An underwhelming first strike capability might derive from the lack of an early stun or that Mark of Shadow un-hides the Rogue

That means that there are many possible 'fixes'.

 

Suggesting such a specific fix like adding armor penetration therefore always leaves the taste of an thoughtless act of jealosy or personal likes/dislikes, especially if the solution includes an already questionable mechanics.

 

All in all, I neither have the tools to argue against that specific fix, nor the interest to get into more detail (I did that already), but I bet the VCR discussions are highly emotional.


Edited by Greven79, 09 December 2014 - 04:04 AM.

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#8 chronojxf007

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Posted 13 December 2014 - 07:13 PM

When sin got 250 penetration buff there is nothing done to nerf their other dps skills, why do you think we need a nerf in order to get more penetration?

 

In fact their penetration buff comes with the cross impact buff too.  Making them easily one shot anything out of hide.  While grimtooth now took it to a whole new level.

 

Don't know why you created a new topic.  I made a post about this months ago in feedback.  Rogue need that 250 penetration, no reason that only sins got buffed.  It make us fall behind in dps, at least for future grind.  What were the devs thinking when they decided to buff sins only.  Because everyone is a sin nobody plays rogue nobody will complain?

 

 

up... hahhaha.....WTF a lame class=Rogue     haizz

 

 

First of all, armor penetration is just a different form of a damage bonus. The effectiveness depends on the defense rate of the target:

 

Shadow Claw (5% penetration):

50%  defense rate => 10% damage bonus

66%  defense rate => 15% damage bonus

75%  defense rate => 20% damage bonus

80%  defense rate => no bonus

 

Due to that and in regard of the fact additional defense gets decreasingly effective, it's one of the worst forms of a damage bonus. Even power-runes are more balanced.

 

Most arguments about buffed/nerfed rogues/assassins are also highly questionable: Both rogues and assassins benefit from Cross Impact, both use Mark of Genocide. But they also have their unique class bonuses that makes it hard to justify the 'better' benefits.

 

Rogues:

  • +40% damage via Mark of Shadow
  • up to +30% ATK / +20% crit. chance via Unstable Doping
  • re-cloak via Smoke Bomb
  • cooldown reset + free combo points via Dirty Plan
  • additional trigger to bypass combo point requirements

Assassin:

  • +5% armor penetration via Shadow Claw
  • +30% ATK / +30% speed via Shadow Form
  • lower cooldown on skills (Shadow Explosion, etc.)
  • faster combo point generation via Shadow Assault

So if I were to chooes who would be faster in killing Ratmaster, it wouldn't be an easy call for me.

That's why from time to time, only certain sub-aspects are used to justify any sort of change.

 

F.e. it's possible to argue that as long as a Rogue one-shots with Cross Impact, he can easily re-cloak to get a faster 2nd kill and then use Dirty Plan for a possible fast 3rd kill. He might therefore be superior in taking out 'easy prey'. The Assassin on contrast would have to trigger "end of combat" first, which can range from automatically to quite hard.

 

The real problem behind these kind of arguments is that (beside the questionable hyposesis) there is no connection between the issue and the suggested solution.

  • A lack in overall damage can be caused by an unfair cooldown of Shadow Explosion or an underwhelming cooldown of Mark of Shadow
  • An underwhelming first strike capability might derive from the lack of an early stun or that Mark of Shadow un-hides the Rogue

That means that there are many possible 'fixes'.

 

Suggesting such a specific fix like adding armor penetration therefore always leaves the taste of an thoughtless act of jealosy or personal likes/dislikes, especially if the solution includes an already questionable mechanics.

 

All in all, I neither have the tools to argue against that specific fix, nor the interest to get into more detail (I did that already), but I bet the VCR discussions are highly emotional.

 

I would say, even some people thinks of my suggestion as a "dream" for rogues, it will stay as a suggestion to make rogues more better, We know that refinement can greatly enhance defence of gears, and many people says that one-shot is deadly even their gears are highly refined + with the armor seed runes. My point of creating this topic is to have an initial suggestion for rogues then put it in discussion. It would be better if all stealth class have penetration buff on the first place. And I still have some several reasons why penetration buff is highly suggested:

 

- Balance out DPS capability and threat generation of rogues both @PvE and PvP compared to other skills of classes such as: Passive Skills such as Battle Tactics(Warriors/Knight), Ignition/Stigma Masery(Crescentia), High pet damage from Noel classes, Spiritual Cadence(Monk), Skills giving out dots ignoring defence(If you know those obvious skills w/ dot capabilities ignoring def), "Alleged low CD" of Varetyr Spear, Spam Heal Capability of Beastmasters (Cruel Bite + Survival skills)

 

Moreover, I'm not giving out numbers for now, because anyway we are all relying on devs for those numbers, but balance should be implemented.
 

"I bet the VCR discussions are highly emotional." Greven are you sure about that? I don't think so ah, and if some VCR did, that's being selfish on my perspective  :heh: Are the VCRs' only the one playing the game? Of course the others too  :heh:  :p_smile: 

@Cartian, I didn't mean nerfing rogue skills if penetration buff will be implemented, but anyway I wanna focus balance damages of rogues at PvP and PvE; for example, Double Attack of Rogues are not ignoring def of mobs in DWL, compared to Oratio dot of Priest; COmpare when we spam D.A. while the other classes do dot damage w/ less effort in their hands.

I'm still open for feedbacks for the suggestion I created. The floor is yours.

 


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#9 MingMei

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Posted 13 December 2014 - 09:47 PM

i want chasing skill/ a more reliable cc(snare/slowed would be enough) for rouges their damages is good enough  

 


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#10 deathdelete

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Posted 14 December 2014 - 05:52 PM

Thats a major problem, crescent moon is the worst knockdown skill ever.
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#11 MingMei

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Posted 14 December 2014 - 06:20 PM

its like reverse for rouges

other class get damage boost while rouges spend combo points that could increase damage/heal us 


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#12 kamuxo

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Posted 14 December 2014 - 09:06 PM

Well, i think that the real problems with DPS of thief class born in the cage of over power skills of other classes previosly named. Penetration buff eventually will can be one of the best solutions in the problem respect to the balance vs other classes and between assasin class, with the same number of the assasin buff penetration, in addition i wish that nerf deadly blow respect to 7% bonus per point to 70% first, ocasionally in more of 1 scene the actual rogue dps in % per second low vs old rogue dps (combo mastery trigger).

 

 


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#13 Greven79

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Posted 15 December 2014 - 01:03 AM

My point of creating this topic is to have an initial suggestion for rogues then put it in discussion. It would be better if all stealth class have penetration buff on the first place. And I still have some several reasons why penetration buff is highly suggested:

 

- Balance out DPS capability and threat generation of rogues both @PvE and PvP compared to other skills of classes such as: Passive Skills such as Battle Tactics(Warriors/Knight), Ignition/Stigma Masery(Crescentia), High pet damage from Noel classes, Spiritual Cadence(Monk), Skills giving out dots ignoring defence(If you know those obvious skills w/ dot capabilities ignoring def), "Alleged low CD" of Varetyr Spear, Spam Heal Capability of Beastmasters (Cruel Bite + Survival skills)

 

Moreover, I'm not giving out numbers for now, because anyway we are all relying on devs for those numbers, but balance should be implemented.

 

The Spiritual Cadence and Ignition benefits are included in the curent stat bonuses

 

Ignition:

Whereas Wizards, Sorcerers and Priests get 3 MATK per INT, Ignition means that the Crecentia gets 6 points instead. It was balanced as long as the Crecentia got only half as much STR/INT per gear part, because it resulted in the same total (check T2 gear).

 

Spiritual Cadence:

The Spiritual Cadence was necessary because a monk was still wearing acolyte gear with 0 STR after the job change. Without Spiritual Cadence, he would have had 0 PATK. Later on, monks also got half as much INT/STR as other classes (check T2 gear).

 

So neither of the two benefits is unfair per se.

 

But that aside, most classes have some sort of inbalance. And the rogues aren't an exception. Beside the obvious OP fracture debuff, they already have a sort of armor penetration: Mark of Shadow. This allows them to attack monsters that would otherwise be immune to damage!

 

In my last reply, I also pointed out that armor penetration is simply unfair. Although useless against heavily armored targets, the alleged small bonus of 5% can still result in an equivalent of a free 20% power rune against other classes. So the request isn't just a minor change.

 

Don't get me wrong though. I wouldn't have a problem if the devs would replace the ATK bonus on Unstable Doping with a 5% armor penetration. Nor would I have a problem, if the roques would get Shadow Claw and assassins the Mark of Shadow. But I have second thoughts about adding another damage boost, because the damage/heal capabilities of all classes are already way too high.

 

"I bet the VCR discussions are highly emotional." Greven are you sure about that? I don't think so ah, and if some VCR did, that's being selfish on my perspective  Are the VCRs' only the one playing the game? Of course the others too

 

No, I'm not sure, but I doubt that the players behind the VCR have changed.

 

It's easy to find out how to improve the own class. It's even more trivial to highlight single inbalances of other classes and use that as an argument. But I honestly doubt that the current VCR system will result in a more balanced game some day. And if the rumors about the new gear are true, we will see just another step in the wrong direction soon.

 


Edited by Greven79, 09 January 2015 - 08:32 AM.

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