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#1 Naegis

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Posted 05 January 2015 - 06:10 PM

Ok, I read every single post in here in hopes of finding a correct build for my Monk, which skills should I use/max, etc. There's nothing but endless arguments about G.fist's damage/cooldown, about how it 1-2 shots people in pvp (and then you're useless), about flee being worthless and about not having any type of healing skill. There's absolutely nothing helpful in all that 1 page and 1 post in the monk's section towards a party/raid, dungeon, pve focused build.

 

There's no build examples, no one posting a screenshot or linking a skill preview, there's no sticky with guides, no nothing.

 

I just want to focus exclusively on PVE, I want to tank, I play with a Priest friend and a Rogue friend, and yeah, not interested in pvp.

 

A little help would be really appreciated since I'm new to the game I lack the funds to reset skills/stat at whim.

 

 

Thanks!


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#2 Lostac

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Posted 05 January 2015 - 07:27 PM

Are you sure about having a full PvM monk? They kinda suck at generating aoe aggro and other tanks or even priests can actually out threat you on single targets overtime.


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#3 Aceeeeeeeeee

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Posted 05 January 2015 - 08:16 PM

Skill builds of monk is not that very tricky. This is why you can't easily find builds and even if you find one, it's very outdated. Try to read more and understand every skills, you can post a question here or ask the veteran Monks ingame (VCR's). To answer your question, maxing Lightning Crush is the only thing you need in AoE and PvE purposes. However,

 

I just want to focus exclusively on PVE, I want to tank, I play with a Priest friend and a Rogue friend, and yeah, not interested in pvp.

 

If you really want PvE and no pvp at all you should pick Beastmaster or Warrior. I do highly suggest the latter.


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#4 Niiu

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Posted 26 January 2015 - 08:45 AM

Ok, I read every single post in here in hopes of finding a correct build for my Monk, which skills should I use/max, etc. There's nothing but endless arguments about G.fist's damage/cooldown, about how it 1-2 shots people in pvp (and then you're useless), about flee being worthless and about not having any type of healing skill. There's absolutely nothing helpful in all that 1 page and 1 post in the monk's section towards a party/raid, dungeon, pve focused build.

 

There's no build examples, no one posting a screenshot or linking a skill preview, there's no sticky with guides, no nothing.

 

I just want to focus exclusively on PVE, I want to tank, I play with a Priest friend and a Rogue friend, and yeah, not interested in pvp.

 

A little help would be really appreciated since I'm new to the game I lack the funds to reset skills/stat at whim.

 

 

Thanks!

 

You send a message with a focus on PvE build Tank for u monk.
On the issue you said, was published to resolve such doubts.
Greetings!

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#5 Sowlemia

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Posted 26 January 2015 - 09:31 AM

The problem at this moment and that's a fact, MONK is not good in PVE with any build, after landing twice G.fist the monk is not usefull a lot, it is not a good tank like a knight or a BM, and their dammages are not so nice as well,. so regardless of their OP and Unfair PVP skills, if you want to play monk in PVE i'ld suggest you to go in pure HP way in order to be a tank, a HP bag as i call it, but even if i have a monk, i'ld suggest you to go ahead to talk to the current VCRs :)


Edited by Sowlemia, 26 January 2015 - 09:35 AM.

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#6 Greven79

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Posted 27 January 2015 - 08:23 AM

Well, there are several reasons, why the monk is considered 'weak' in PvE.

 

Ultimate attack:

Spoiler

 

AoE:

Spoiler

 

Defense & co.:

Spoiler

 

To sum it up:

Due to broken Battle Tactics, Warriors and Knights will have the highest DPS and therefore the highest threat. If you like to be a main tank (the one the boss attacks) and you don't have a fix grinding party, you should choose one of them. Warriors have a better AoE, but Knights have the better overall package. However, both classes force you to invest a bit more to make them that broken.

 

Due to the powerful heals and the high hitpoints, the beastmaster is easy to play in PvE. You have a very fast AoE, aren't dependant on heal pets, support classes or pots, so you're very powerful grinding on your own. Makes a lot of fun and Survival even gives you the feeling of supporting the whole team. But I only recommend this class if you don't care much about costumes // changing appearance.

 

The monk... well. If you already have one, stick to it. You benefit from a high defense rate early on and as soon as you get higher vigor rates, your AoE isn't that bad anymore. But it's a class that receives a lot of (undeserved) hate and is often misunderstood. So be aware that you might not be invited, because they're looking for 'real tanks', i.e Warriors or Knights.

 

Final note on PvP:

Spoiler

Edited by Greven79, 27 January 2015 - 08:42 AM.

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#7 Renism

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Posted 22 February 2015 - 11:47 PM

Ok, I read every single post in here in hopes of finding a correct build for my Monk, which skills should I use/max, etc. There's nothing but endless arguments about G.fist's damage/cooldown, about how it 1-2 shots people in pvp (and then you're useless), about flee being worthless and about not having any type of healing skill. There's absolutely nothing helpful in all that 1 page and 1 post in the monk's section towards a party/raid, dungeon, pve focused build.

 

There's no build examples, no one posting a screenshot or linking a skill preview, there's no sticky with guides, no nothing.

 

I just want to focus exclusively on PVE, I want to tank, I play with a Priest friend and a Rogue friend, and yeah, not interested in pvp.

 

A little help would be really appreciated since I'm new to the game I lack the funds to reset skills/stat at whim.

 

 

Thanks!

 

If you really want to PvE, you should turn pure VIT, why? Here's the answer. Monks are natural tanks and PvE is more effective when you have your friends with you especially if you have a tank, dps and a healer on your team (which is composed of you and your friends already). PvP is somewhat a bonus when you're pure VIT, you'll be able to attack and your Guillotine Fist will not be lower than 10k while your enemy is standing @ ML 30.

 

My friend has AGI yet it needs great amounts of AGI to improve your evasion but this is also good as your level up since monsters from Dark Whisper to Forgotten Payon hits like a truck.

 

The problem at this moment and that's a fact, MONK is not good in PVE with any build, after landing twice G.fist the monk is not usefull a lot, it is not a good tank like a knight or a BM, and their dammages are not so nice as well,. so regardless of their OP and Unfair PVP skills, if you want to play monk in PVE i'ld suggest you to go in pure HP way in order to be a tank, a HP bag as i call it, but even if i have a monk, i'ld suggest you to go ahead to talk to the current VCRs :)

 

I beg to differ, Sowlemia.

 

Doing great amount of damage in 1v1 PvE is considered good in that ground... so is tanking a huge amount of mobs. Being good at something is relative to your class and if you suck at doing DPS and you're an Assassin, you aren't good at PvE. Same as being a Monk, if you suck at tanking (which is the nature of Monks), you're not good at PvE. You don't compare a banana to an apple.

 

Monks are stereotyped as useless after using 2 Guillotine Fists, however, tanks can use Protection Ki (reduces incoming damage to 50% for 10 secs.) and still hit other classes in PvP. Also, you won't need 3 Spirit Spheres when your Steel Body is active as it disregards the need for Spirit Spheres on Protection Ki. Evasion is also helpful as it gives 20% evasion rate. It is justifiable since it gives direct percentage to the evasion.

 

Beast Masters are considered tanks because of their huge amount HP and because of the defense cap. The first one is self explanatory while the second one, you'll be asking "why?". Well, it is because the Monks can reach way beyond the cap but then again, because it is capped, you can't go beyond it. With Beast Masters, even though not all can reach the defense cap (?), they are compensated with higher HP that's why they are harder to kill. They can also work under pressure since they have Survival and has higher HP that can be instantly filled even if lower than 30% (with an Explorer Potion). HP > Capped Defense. As for the latter, most Knights are considered to DPS and can't handle much mobs compared to Beast Masters and Monks because of Battle Tactics.


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#8 Greven79

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Posted 24 February 2015 - 10:54 AM

If you really want to PvE, you should turn pure VIT, why? Here's the answer. Monks are natural tanks and PvE is more effective when you have your friends with you especially if you have a tank, dps and a healer on your team (which is composed of you and your friends already). PvP is somewhat a bonus when you're pure VIT, you'll be able to attack and your Guillotine Fist will not be lower than 10k while your enemy is standing @ ML 30.

 

My friend has AGI yet it needs great amounts of AGI to improve your evasion but this is also good as your level up since monsters from Dark Whisper to Forgotten Payon hits like a truck..

 

Actually, you can't really say that, because additional defense becomes less and less effective. If you like to do Colo or want to be a tank early on, you can focus on VIT. But sooner or later, a focus on defense becomes quite insignificant.

 

Let's say you've spent 300pts on VIT. If you've maxed Steel Body and Iron Skin, that's 2,100 DEF in total.

(300 VIT = 600 DEF => +250% bonus via Steel Body & Iron Skin = 2100 DEF).

 

And although this sounds like a good benefit, it might be marginal:

 

30k defense => 89,1% defense rate

32,100 defense => 89,7% defense rate

 

So 300pts in VIT might result in an additinal benefit of 0,6% defense rate!

(warriors, knights & monks can even achieve better defense values => even a lower benefit out of VIT)

 

The same is true for the Iron Skin skill in general. Let's use the 30k defense, but let's remove Iron Skin.

You end up with 25,714 defense => 87,5% defense rate... a loss of 2,6%! So who believes this skill is broken?

(30k DEF includes a 250% bonus, but w\o Iron Skin, you only have a 200% bonus => 30,000 / 3,5 * 3,0 = 25,714)

 

The same way, 300 VIT might result in about 7k HP (including Pron buff, etc.). That's ok, but not overwhelmingly great nor life-saving, especially in PvP.  Well, spending 300pts in STR isn't that great either, so it's ok to focus on VIT, but it's surely not a must-have.

 

Being good at something is relative to your class and if you suck at doing DPS and you're an Assassin, you aren't good at PvE. Same as being a Monk, if you suck at tanking (which is the nature of Monks), you're not good at PvE. You don't compare a banana to an apple.

 

Monks are stereotyped as useless after using 2 Guillotine Fists, however, tanks can use Protection Ki (reduces incoming damage to 50% for 10 secs.) and still hit other classes in PvP. Also, you won't need 3 Spirit Spheres when your Steel Body is active as it disregards the need for Spirit Spheres on Protection Ki. Evasion is also helpful as it gives 20% evasion rate. It is justifiable since it gives direct percentage to the evasion.

 

Beast Masters are considered tanks because of their huge amount HP and because of the defense cap. The first one is self explanatory while the second one, you'll be asking "why?". Well, it is because the Monks can reach way beyond the cap but then again, because it is capped, you can't go beyond it. With Beast Masters, even though not all can reach the defense cap (?), they are compensated with higher HP that's why they are harder to kill. They can also work under pressure since they have Survival and has higher HP that can be instantly filled even if lower than 30% (with an Explorer Potion). HP > Capped Defense. As for the latter, most Knights are considered to DPS and can't handle much mobs compared to Beast Masters and Monks because of Battle Tactics.

 

Actually, Sowlemia isn't that wrong. He stated that once a monk has used his two G-Fists, he has to wait quite some time until he can use them again.

 

Let's first use the starting cooldown:

A G-Fist has a cooldown of 60sec. This means it can be used twice every 120sec. You can also reset the cooldown once during that time using Summon Spirit Sphere, so you can use the G-Fist a third time. On average, that's a 40sec cooldown.

 

And that's the crucial point --- It's twice the cooldown of other 'ultimate' skills like Rage Strike, Brutal Strike. Shield Cannon, etc. Do monks deal twice as much damage instead? - Of course not!

 

With Vigor:

Vigor doesn't help here because other classes profit as well and might even have a higher value to begin with. So no matter how high the vigor rate gets, monks will still have at least twice the cooldown... even with a cooldown reset.

 

I also talked about other PvE disadvantages in regard of AoE damage last time and can't let Battle Tactics and the BM heals unmentioned either. But even your argument about Evasion and Ki-Protection needs a few corrections:

 

Whereas monks can get 20% dodge rate, Warriors can get 40% Parry rate and Knights 20% damage reduction (Aura Shield) and a permanent 10% of their Shield. And whereas the monk has Ki-Protection, Warriors have Endure and Knights Shield Fortress.

IIRC Ki-Protection never requires 3 inner energies, that's a mistake in the description. I'm not 100% certain though. I rarely used it this way.

 

So the only two advantages of a PvE monk are a higher dodge.and resettable self-protection skill... and the former is lost with Eddga gear. So is it enough to be competitive to the other tank classes?

 

About PvP:

Here, the monk profits more from a cooldown reset and auto-crit., but still suffers especially during mass-fights. Yes, it's an advantage to deal an automatic crit. damage but that comes at the cost of a tripled cooldown. Yes, it's an advantage to reset the skills for a fast second G-Fist, but it's a rare thing, so what do you do in the meantime?

 

And would you prefer a Shield Cannon every 10sec or a G-Fist every 30sec with an possible reset every 60sec?

 

And about the other frequent complains about monks?

 

He can one-shot! || He can two-shot! || He always crits! - Well, in 30~50% the cases (typical crit. chances with buffs), other classes get a crit. the old-fashioned way. And the damage isn't that much higher compared to other classes. And it's still a combo (not like Cross Impact, Sacrifice, etc.), so there are several moments where monks can simply miss. You miss with a Brutal Strike, well repeat it 10sec later. You miss with a G-Fist? Hope SSS is up or try again 30sec later. You're dependant on a double-G-Fist and one misses? Next attempt 60sec later! Your target heals himself between the G-Fists.... well better have some friends nearby!

 

But this doesn't mean that monks are a bad class!

 

Although they'll probably have 40%  of the threat of Warriors & Knights in PvE (or less), they are still reliable tanks.

In PvP, they are quite useless in mass fights, but they can still be the bane of 'weaker' classes in 1on1 situations.

And in Colo, they are :p_omg: + :p_sick:

 

... and that's basically what Sowlemia said with 1/100th the word count.


Edited by Greven79, 24 February 2015 - 11:10 AM.

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#9 6615140803102016683

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Posted 25 February 2015 - 07:02 PM

Actually, you can't really say that, because additional defense becomes less and less effective. If you like to do Colo or want to be a tank early on, you can focus on VIT. But sooner or later, a focus on defense becomes quite insignificant.

 

Let's say you've spent 300pts on VIT. If you've maxed Steel Body and Iron Skin, that's 2,100 DEF in total.

(300 VIT = 600 DEF => +250% bonus via Steel Body & Iron Skin = 2100 DEF).

 

And although this sounds like a good benefit, it might be marginal:

 

30k defense => 89,1% defense rate

32,100 defense => 89,7% defense rate

 

So 300pts in VIT might result in an additinal benefit of 0,6% defense rate!

(warriors, knights & monks can even achieve better defense values => even a lower benefit out of VIT)

 

The same is true for the Iron Skin skill in general. Let's use the 30k defense, but let's remove Iron Skin.

You end up with 25,714 defense => 87,5% defense rate... a loss of 2,6%! So who believes this skill is broken?

(30k DEF includes a 250% bonus, but w\o Iron Skin, you only have a 200% bonus => 30,000 / 3,5 * 3,0 = 25,714)

 

The same way, 300 VIT might result in about 7k HP (including Pron buff, etc.). That's ok, but not overwhelmingly great nor life-saving, especially in PvP.  Well, spending 300pts in STR isn't that great either, so it's ok to focus on VIT, but it's surely not a must-have.

 

 

True, 2,100 def isn't a really that big however, in the long run, you'd still need all the vit you can get. I've tried experimenting using a +0 Osiris set in DWU - LR and tried both stats (both pure STR and pure VIT), VIT won. Also, it contributes to the potion recovery with is crucial in grinding (PvE). PvP is just a bonus since you can wait for G. Fist and still tank hits.


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#10 6615140803102016683

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Posted 27 February 2015 - 03:19 AM

Actually, Sowlemia isn't that wrong. He stated that once a monk has used his two G-Fists, he has to wait quite some time until he can use them again.

 

Let's first use the starting cooldown:

A G-Fist has a cooldown of 60sec. This means it can be used twice every 120sec. You can also reset the cooldown once during that time using Summon Spirit Sphere, so you can use the G-Fist a third time. On average, that's a 40sec cooldown.

 

And that's the crucial point --- It's twice the cooldown of other 'ultimate' skills like Rage Strike, Brutal Strike. Shield Cannon, etc. Do monks deal twice as much damage instead? - Of course not!

 

With Vigor:

Vigor doesn't help here because other classes profit as well and might even have a higher value to begin with. So no matter how high the vigor rate gets, monks will still have at least twice the cooldown... even with a cooldown reset.

 

I also talked about other PvE disadvantages in regard of AoE damage last time and can't let Battle Tactics and the BM heals unmentioned either. But even your argument about Evasion and Ki-Protection needs a few corrections:

 

Whereas monks can get 20% dodge rate, Warriors can get 40% Parry rate and Knights 20% damage reduction (Aura Shield) and a permanent 10% of their Shield. And whereas the monk has Ki-Protection, Warriors have Endure and Knights Shield Fortress.

IIRC Ki-Protection never requires 3 inner energies, that's a mistake in the description. I'm not 100% certain though. I rarely used it this way.

 

So the only two advantages of a PvE monk are a higher dodge.and resettable self-protection skill... and the former is lost with Eddga gear. So is it enough to be competitive to the other tank classes?

 

About PvP:

Here, the monk profits more from a cooldown reset and auto-crit., but still suffers especially during mass-fights. Yes, it's an advantage to deal an automatic crit. damage but that comes at the cost of a tripled cooldown. Yes, it's an advantage to reset the skills for a fast second G-Fist, but it's a rare thing, so what do you do in the meantime?

 

And would you prefer a Shield Cannon every 10sec or a G-Fist every 30sec with an possible reset every 60sec?

 

And about the other frequent complains about monks?

 

He can one-shot! || He can two-shot! || He always crits! - Well, in 30~50% the cases (typical crit. chances with buffs), other classes get a crit. the old-fashioned way. And the damage isn't that much higher compared to other classes. And it's still a combo (not like Cross Impact, Sacrifice, etc.), so there are several moments where monks can simply miss. You miss with a Brutal Strike, well repeat it 10sec later. You miss with a G-Fist? Hope SSS is up or try again 30sec later. You're dependant on a double-G-Fist and one misses? Next attempt 60sec later! Your target heals himself between the G-Fists.... well better have some friends nearby!

 

But this doesn't mean that monks are a bad class!

 

Although they'll probably have 40%  of the threat of Warriors & Knights in PvE (or less), they are still reliable tanks.

In PvP, they are quite useless in mass fights, but they can still be the bane of 'weaker' classes in 1on1 situations.

And in Colo, they are :p_omg: + :p_sick:

 

... and that's basically what Sowlemia said with 1/100th the word count.

 

Yes, I didn't disagree with the 2 Guillotine Fist argument. What I'm saying is, Monks are stereotyped as really useless once they use 2 G. Fist. Also, I'm just sticking to what TS is asking, what's the best build for a PvM Monk, I'm just stating the perks of being a pure VIT Monk.

 

Off Topic:

Protection Ki requires 3 Inner Spirits yet doesn't consume them (when you're under the effect of Steel Body). I define tank as both having high HP and high defense. It is true that others have better buffs yet it all boils down to Beast Masters and Monks. Again, my max level Beast Master with +20 Himmelmez gears has lower defense but higher HP. My Monk with +20 Himmelmez + Cazar mixed gears has higher defense but lower HP. The argument still stands that Monks are tank. I have also tried tanking mobs in FP using only a +0 Himmelmez Suit (the one I'm using to get good seeds) and Warriors / Knights with +0 Himmelmez Suit can't tank there (me and my friend have tried). Eddga is good for PvP as Purple Runes give way to +80 STR / INT. Also, not recommending Eddga for PvM since it greatly decrease stats from Cazar Gears (mostly INT and AGI).

I frequently use Raging Blow once I can still do damage (with Fury Explosion and Throw Spirit Sphere). 

Again, no one's complaining about Monks, man. We're here to give insights on the best build for PvM and help. You're helping though you're exaggerating the cons of being a Monk, lol. Also, it depends. If you have an attack high enough to get Raging Blow to 4k / hit + 2k auto attack, you can get through the game like the others. In the colossuems, if you battle with an Assassin, you'd surely lose.

 


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#11 Greven79

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Posted 28 February 2015 - 05:34 AM

Off Topic:
Protection Ki requires 3 Inner Spirits yet doesn't consume them (when you're under the effect of Steel Body).

 
I finally had the chance to get online and check it. It's like I said: Ki-Protection neither requires nor consumres inner energy as long as Steel Body is active and both requires and consumes a single inner energy, as soon as Steel Body is deactivated. The translation is misleading.

 

Yes, I didn't disagree with the 2 Guillotine Fist argument. What I'm saying is, Monks are stereotyped as really useless once they use 2 G. Fist. Also, I'm just sticking to what TS is asking, what's the best build for a PvM Monk, I'm just stating the perks of being a pure VIT Monk.

[...]

I define tank as both having high HP and high defense. It is true that others have better buffs yet it all boils down to Beast Masters and Monks. Again, my max level Beast Master with +20 Himmelmez gears has lower defense but higher HP. My Monk with +20 Himmelmez + Cazar mixed gears has higher defense but lower HP. The argument still stands that Monks are tank.

 

You run in open doors here. As I've said: Monks are reliable tanks.

 

Whether they're main tanks or not is defined by the threat meter. And due to the high cooldown of the G-Fist, monks have a disadvantage. Other skills & class specialties help to compensate that of course, but AFAICT it's quite hard to compete. Warriors & Knights are off scale due to their Battle Tactics, but even in direct comparison to Beastmasters, only the fact that monks can use Ymir, Fury Explosion & Throw Spirit Sphere might give them the edge.

 

high-HP/low-DEF vs. low-HP/high-DEF:

Had this discussion already. To sum my arguments up: Only the percentual loss of hitpoints really matters. If a clas has more HPs, but takes more damage as well, there's no real benefit. Therefore BMs aren't OP per se.

 

All tank classes will easily overshoot the defense cap as soon as they refine their gear, but whether the extra defense is a waste or not depends on the armor penetration of the monsters... and they all have at least a bit now. So you shouldn't stop at 75% defense rate.

 

But due to the fact that additional defense gets diminishingly effective, monks won't have a noticable advantage on that field later. In the end, Warriors, Knights can achieve 90%+ defense rates as well. That's why I haven't maxed Iron Skin f.e.

 

Therefore - to repeat myself - the main advantage of monks is their higher dodge rate and their cooldown reset.

 

I have also tried tanking mobs in FP using only a +0 Himmelmez Suit (the one I'm using to get good seeds) and Warriors / Knights with +0 Himmelmez Suit can't tank there (me and my friend have tried).

 

Well, you didn't meet the right Warriors & Knights then. And as I told many times right now, monks are less dependant on their refinement than Warriors & Knights, so your comparison with +0 gear isn't that useful.

 

Eddga is good for PvP as Purple Runes give way to +80 STR / INT. Also, not recommending Eddga for PvM since it greatly decrease stats from Cazar Gears (mostly INT and AGI).

 

Well, I had this discussion also already, so I won't repeat it in detail here! But to prevent mistakes:

Eddga gear isn't great due to +80 runes, but due to CLS runes that can be put into purple rune slots. That way, any class is able to either increase their PvP damage by 60% or their damage reduction by 36%.

 

And due to the fact that damage reduction is addititve, the 36% will get abnormally powerful in combination with armor greenseeds, PvP-dam.red. hones and skills like Ki-Protection. That way, it's possible for every class to achieve 60%+ permanently... and monks can use Ki-Protection to temporarily achieve even higher rates (not sure about a cap though).

 

You're helping though you're exaggerating the cons of being a Monk, lol. Also, it depends. If you have an attack high enough to get Raging Blow to 4k / hit + 2k auto attack, you can get through the game like the others. In the colossuems, if you battle with an Assassin, you'd surely lose.

 

See, I'm not particular bound to any class. I only pinpoint to certain specialties and the presumable impact. Yes, a monk has quite a high damage percentage with a Raging Blow f.e., but I've seen 40k Bash crits. as well. And If you look at beastmasters, they have a 508% Fury Strike usable every 1.3sec given enough vigor.... so we could just start a whole discussion just about that.

 

My interest is not to 'exaggerate the cons of a monk', but to reveal all the things players have to take into consideration in order to judge classes in a professional / competent way.

 


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#12 6615140803102016683

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Posted 01 March 2015 - 03:46 PM

 

 
I finally had the chance to get online and check it. It's like I said: Ki-Protection neither requires nor consumres inner energy as long as Steel Body is active and both requires and consumes a single inner energy, as soon as Steel Body is deactivated. The translation is misleading.

 
Yes, I just tried it just now.
 

 

You run in open doors here. As I've said: Monks are reliable tanks.

 

Whether they're main tanks or not is defined by the threat meter. And due to the high cooldown of the G-Fist, monks have a disadvantage. Other skills & class specialties help to compensate that of course, but AFAICT it's quite hard to compete. Warriors & Knights are off scale due to their Battle Tactics, but even in direct comparison to Beastmasters, only the fact that monks can use Ymir, Fury Explosion & Throw Spirit Sphere might give them the edge.

 

high-HP/low-DEF vs. low-HP/high-DEF:

Had this discussion already. To sum my arguments up: Only the percentual loss of hitpoints really matters. If a clas has more HPs, but takes more damage as well, there's no real benefit. Therefore BMs aren't OP per se.

 

All tank classes will easily overshoot the defense cap as soon as they refine their gear, but whether the extra defense is a waste or not depends on the armor penetration of the monsters... and they all have at least a bit now. So you shouldn't stop at 75% defense rate.

 

But due to the fact that additional defense gets diminishingly effective, monks won't have a noticable advantage on that field later. In the end, Warriors, Knights can achieve 90%+ defense rates as well. That's why I haven't maxed Iron Skin f.e.

 

Therefore - to repeat myself - the main advantage of monks is their higher dodge rate and their cooldown reset.

 

True that, however, threat meter is always higher with Monks when AoE since Lightning Crush gives 100% Threat Value (in addition to Steel Body's 300%). Also, Warriors usually turn of Aura Armor (to remove the generation of Threat Value) and switch to Aura Blade (to DPS) since Warriors are known better that way. PvP is another story (about the G-Fist advantage / disadvantage).

 

Also, HP is relative. Both have benefits (Beast Masters can tank bosses with ease whereas Monks can easily take on great number of mobs with slower HP depletion). My defense rate is 85% (without +20 gears) and everything also depends on the stats and gears they put on.

 

Yes, I do adhere to that, all tanks can achieve max defense, however, no one trades off their potential from DPS to Tank. Monks and Beast Masters are natural tank and Warriors and Knights always stick to DPS.

 

 

Well, you didn't meet the right Warriors & Knights then. And as I told many times right now, monks are less dependant on their refinement than Warriors & Knights, so your comparison with +0 gear isn't that useful.

 

But you kept on insisting that they can tank. Everyone knows people with +20 gears (especially suits) can tank but only partial tanking and not absolute. (it's rare to see Warriors and Knights tank at LR / FP). 

 

 

 

Well, I had this discussion also already, so I won't repeat it in detail here! But to prevent mistakes:

Eddga gear isn't great due to +80 runes, but due to CLS runes that can be put into purple rune slots. That way, any class is able to either increase their PvP damage by 60% or their damage reduction by 36%.

 

And due to the fact that damage reduction is addititve, the 36% will get abnormally powerful in combination with armor greenseeds, PvP-dam.red. hones and skills like Ki-Protection. That way, it's possible for every class to achieve 60%+ permanently... and monks can use Ki-Protection to temporarily achieve even higher rates (not sure about a cap though).

 

When talking about PvP, it will always be great, however, stats lose when changing from being a tank in general to being PvP-oriented (I will always stick to Cazar no matter what). And there are no caps on damage reduction too. Sticking to PvM-oriented build, I do suggest going to full Cazar. Osiris - Cazar all the way.
 

 

See, I'm not particular bound to any class. I only pinpoint to certain specialties and the presumable impact. Yes, a monk has quite a high damage percentage with a Raging Blow f.e., but I've seen 40k Bash crits. as well. And If you look at beastmasters, they have a 508% Fury Strike usable every 1.3sec given enough vigor.... so we could just start a whole discussion just about that.

 

My interest is not to 'exaggerate the cons of a monk', but to reveal all the things players have to take into consideration in order to judge classes in a professional / competent way.

 

Yes, I've seen higher (Up to 65k and 150k+ Rage Strike) but still, not all can do that. Monks, in general, can reach 35k HP (with Osiris set, of course) and get 75%+ defense and can withstand Warriors and Knights, ceteris paribus. I'm not a bigot and all but yeah, there are better classes thank Monks, I'm just stating the potential of being one.


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#13 Greven79

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Posted 02 March 2015 - 05:13 AM

True that, however, threat meter is always higher with Monks when AoE since Lightning Crush gives 100% Threat Value (in addition to Steel Body's 300%). Also, Warriors usually turn of Aura Armor (to remove the generation of Threat Value) and switch to Aura Blade (to DPS) since Warriors are known better that way.

 
I have both a Knight and a Warrior and I can assure you that I wouldn't deactivate Aura Armor. And surely not because these classes are 'known better that way'.

 

The additional damage benefit from Aura Sword is laughable low, so I'd rather stick to the extra HPs.

 

And even the statement that monks have a higher threat when AoE-ing is false, because Warriors & Knights simply deal more damage instead of increasing the treat artificially. So what is better in the end - a doubled threat or dealing twice as much damage?

 

Monks even have a hard time against beastmasters... the latter get the additional threat bonus as well, but Beast Tornado doesn't share the cooldown of a Lightning Crush.
 

Yes, I do adhere to that, all tanks can achieve max defense, however, no one trades off their potential from DPS to Tank. Monks and Beast Masters are natural tank and Warriors and Knights always stick to DPS.

 
The reason why you might mistake them as DPS classes is because Battle Tactics is broken. I still see a lot of Knights out there who focus on VIT & defense on their PvE gear.
 

But you kept on insisting that they can tank. Everyone knows people with +20 gears (especially suits) can tank but only partial tanking and not absolute. (it's rare to see Warriors and Knights tank at LR / FP).

 
Simply because they ARE tanks. For a long time, Knights were even considered being THE tank class - the one and only.

 

Warriors and Knights can easily achieve a 90%+ defense rate, do have the similar skills (f.e. all tank have a +300% threat generation skill) and all of them have two self-preservation skills (Aura Shield, Parrying, Evasion, Endure, Shield Fortress or Ki-Protection). So they are natural tanks just like beastmasters and monks. The 85% defense rate of your monk f.e. is easy to achieve as a Warrior or Knight. As I've said, they start with four times as much gear defense... in total more than monks achieve with Iron Skin and Steel Body combined (+250%).

 

Warriors can further increase that with Defender, whereas Knights get the DEF/VIT bonus and 10% damage reduction I already mentioned. Defender also increases dodge & parry by 30%, that's why Warriors will easily outbest any other class on that field... even monks.

 

The only difference is that due to the brokenness of Battle Tactics, players might have centered their class around that. So they might focus on INT rather than VIT, but that's it. If you don't see them that often as tanks in FP, it's not anything class-specific... they aren't lacking anything. Instead, they can prevent repair costs, don't have to use pots, etc., if they don't play as a main tank... There's nothing to gain, but much to lose.

 

But if you feel that I am missisng something here, feel free to highlight any monk specialty that makes him an "absolute" tank that Warriors or Knights couldn't achieve.

 

When talking about PvP, it will always be great, however, stats lose when changing from being a tank in general to being PvP-oriented (I will always stick to Cazar no matter what). And there are no caps on damage reduction too. Sticking to PvM-oriented build, I do suggest going to full Cazar. Osiris - Cazar all the way.

 

Noone forces you to sell your cazar gear and switch to Eddga gear. Currently, I suggest to get a PvE set and separate PvP set.

 

Because if you choose to go PvP, there is no way that any other set will outbest either a 60% PvP damage increase or a 36% higher PvP damage reduction of Eddga. So if you stick to Cazar gear, you'll still be one-shotted by Shield Boomerangs and will end up dealing insignificant damage that can be outhealed easily.

 

 


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#14 6615140803102016683

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Posted 09 March 2015 - 12:15 AM

 
I have both a Knight and a Warrior and I can assure you that I wouldn't deactivate Aura Armor. And surely not because these classes are 'known better that way'.

 

The additional damage benefit from Aura Sword is laughable low, so I'd rather stick to the extra HPs.

 

And even the statement that monks have a higher threat when AoE-ing is false, because Warriors & Knights simply deal more damage instead of increasing the treat artificially. So what is better in the end - a doubled threat or dealing twice as much damage?

 

Monks even have a hard time against beastmasters... the latter get the additional threat bonus as well, but Beast Tornado doesn't share the cooldown of a Lightning Crush.

 

Warriors and Knights in Freyja use is for them not to generate high aggro in Forgotten Payon.

 

Yes, that's the reason behind debuffing Aura Armor.

 

Beast Masters have Bear Spirit, Monks only have Steel Body (Fury Explosion has 30s duration), so basically, Beast Masters can switch to Bear Spirit in order to deal higher damage and acquire less threat points.

 

 

 

The reason why you might mistake them as DPS classes is because Battle Tactics is broken. I still see a lot of Knights out there who focus on VIT & defense on their PvE gear.

 

Yes, and yep. I don't know about you but people still favor that pure INT build. I have a friend who is pure VIT and deals a lot of damage... but for newbies, people still prefer them having pure INT for DPS (since luring is hard for newbies -- lack of upgrades on gears, etc.).

 

 

 

Simply because they ARE tanks. For a long time, Knights were even considered being THE tank class - the one and only.

 

Warriors and Knights can easily achieve a 90%+ defense rate, do have the similar skills (f.e. all tank have a +300% threat generation skill) and all of them have two self-preservation skills (Aura Shield, Parrying, Evasion, Endure, Shield Fortress or Ki-Protection). So they are natural tanks just like beastmasters and monks. The 85% defense rate of your monk f.e. is easy to achieve as a Warrior or Knight. As I've said, they start with four times as much gear defense... in total more than monks achieve with Iron Skin and Steel Body combined (+250%).

 

Warriors can further increase that with Defender, whereas Knights get the DEF/VIT bonus and 10% damage reduction I already mentioned. Defender also increases dodge & parry by 30%, that's why Warriors will easily outbest any other class on that field... even monks.

 

The only difference is that due to the brokenness of Battle Tactics, players might have centered their class around that. So they might focus on INT rather than VIT, but that's it. If you don't see them that often as tanks in FP, it's not anything class-specific... they aren't lacking anything. Instead, they can prevent repair costs, don't have to use pots, etc., if they don't play as a main tank... There's nothing to gain, but much to lose.

 

But if you feel that I am missisng something here, feel free to highlight any monk specialty that makes him an "absolute" tank that Warriors or Knights couldn't achieve.

 

I do adhere to that, however, let's assume they have +0 gears again. A monk with pure VIT @ ML 30 can tank Payon Farmers, Merchants, etc. at FP (with luck not to get crit, of course). I've tried it with a Knight and the damage is high enough to kill me with 3 attacks. I do adhere that they all have the defense buffs, however, if you level the playing field (having +0 as the set), the monk would always win. Try it on DWU up to FP, Monks will always be a step ahead when it comes to tanking. And if you're referring to Knights and Warriors in Odin, yes, they turn pure VIT (or even not pure VIT) and still deal high damage. Well, it's because of the seeds. Now that the RNG for high-tier seeds is changed, one can argue that it's really hard to be tanking rather than DPS-ing when using a Knight or Warrior. Also, the potential for high DPS is forgone when you switch to pure VIT.

 

Yes, it's about the Battle Tactics, and people still pick that path over the other (tanking) since it's the most efficient way to be a Warrior or Knight.

 

You explained it very well and yes, it is true, but again, if you try to lure using your Knight or Monk in FP using only a Himmelmez Suit and Renobatio as a heal (no Highness Heal since it gets the aggro), you'll die easily. 

 

 

 

Noone forces you to sell your cazar gear and switch to Eddga gear. Currently, I suggest to get a PvE set and separate PvP set.

 

Because if you choose to go PvP, there is no way that any other set will outbest either a 60% PvP damage increase or a 36% higher PvP damage reduction of Eddga. So if you stick to Cazar gear, you'll still be one-shotted by Shield Boomerangs and will end up dealing insignificant damage that can be outhealed easily.

 

You can't sell your Cazar Gear since it's bound on equip. I am currently doing what you're suggesting and yes, I have 2 sets (partial set) -- Eddga Parts and a full Cazar set. However, if TS isn't really into spending, he can stick to only 1 set, Cazar set (since it is accessible to everyone).

 

True, true. :(


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#15 Lukeario

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Posted 25 November 2015 - 11:14 AM

Since this topic is about PVE oriented Monk Build I hope it's ok that I post here.

 

I've tried to come up with a PvE oriented Tank-build that also let's me do PvP if I want to.

This(http://www.roguard.n...1554515565a511/) is what I came up with and I was hoping you could give me some constructive input about it.


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#16 Futreskah

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Posted 07 July 2016 - 11:16 PM

Any inputs on Updated Build and Skill for monk Vit Type :)


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#17 KratS

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Posted 06 December 2019 - 11:52 AM

Ignore all the -_- you read before...

Go FULL AGI, rest STR

•1st: Even thought G-Strike always crit, the benefit you recieve from either VIT or STR is marginal and you already go happy go lucky with the one your equip gaves you.

•2nd: If all the other classes exceed you in damage whats the use on focusing in G-strike builds??.... Your rule is, Fly like a Butterfly, Sting like a Bee. Focus on getting capped your Crit R% and Dodge.

•3rd: Skills wise, get everything except for Flee and Intimidation in 1, and Raging, Steel Body , & Iron Skin in 5 to begin with.

•4th:  Your PVE tactic is... Lightning Walk, Ranging Blow,Ranging Blow Heavy Tackle,       Ranging blow, Ranging Blow Heavy Tackle, REPEAT.

•5th: Use Thorw Spirit Sphere for Poking.

•6th: Grind crazy amount of mobs, Use both buffs, and Spam Lightning Crush + Ranging Blows

 


Edited by KratS, 06 December 2019 - 11:53 AM.

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