49 replies to this topic

[MingMei]

Funny, how this discussion runs in circles, Suddenly, we're back to the usual Battle Tactics QQ-ing. 

 

As I've said, I know that there are other skills that are broken and I comment on these issues as well (if someone still didn't notice).

 

But lets repeat your example, but keep simple this time:

 

Wizard 1: Lvl 10 Firebolt

Wizard 2: Lvl 10 Lightning Bolt

 

Who wins?

 

Now let's remove all cast speed and do it one more time. How is it going to end now?

 

My statement is that if you want to achieve balance, you have to balance all skills.... and this surely includes assassins and warriors as well.  What I suggested here - a vigor / cast speed nerf - would affect any class.

 

If you nerf vigor, it affect how often a class could use Rage Strike, G-Fist, Aspersio, etc., so it would drop the overall DPS of these classes. CC skills couldn't be cast in a quick succession anymore, so this threat would be gone as well. And the wizard isn't even hurt that much, so it would indirectly be a buff. So if the cast speed of Firebolt and Fireball would be worse, it would only cause a DPS nerf for the Wizard as well.

 

In the end, it would result in less cc skills and an overall DPS decrease. So it's remarkable that even such a trivial fix doesn't seem to be possible, because "zero cast speed was part of RO1". Wow!

 

So Battle Tactics is balanced no matter what, because "requires the player to 'waste' statpoints on INT", penetration is balanced because "someone likes it and all stealth classes deserve it" and you can't do anything against DNA bots, because "someone likes to farm them now and then". This game ir really doomed!

i used battle tactic as an example to clearly show that merely comparing single skill damage while neglecting other factors that indirectly effect the skill isnt good. 

 

what is the point of comparing Firebolt no cast speed to Lightning? i thought the issue was mostly Wiz VS other class

off course no cast firebolt would win against Lightning bolt.

 

Firebolt have the highest skill mod for a 0 CD skill but lack of supplemental skill, makes it so-so

if any of the top tier class have this skill would be godly 

even if immobile a BM/monk with firebolt would be fine or atleast make good use of it 

Hide + firebolt = relatively easier to re-hide after kill 

Battle Tactic + firebolt = 1 dead every 2-3 attack

Wiz + firebolt/ball = are they dominating? there is a reason why wiz pop is dying, the numbers on his kit isnt as strong in game

 

If you nerf vigor/castspeed 

 

Wiz match up would get worst

Vigor nerf would only benefit Wiz if he could outlived the first set of combos 

they arent build to last, prolonged casting of frost driver would make them easier target to Battle Leap for example

Wiz VS others. no match up could get better if cast/vigor is nerfed(nothing comes to mind, right now) 

although i agree that other class match up might change ex. priest vs other class 

 

-although i want vigor / cast speed gone so it would be easier to balance class a simple nerf would only make it worst for Wiz

[Greven79]

Ok, it seems there are a few misunderstandings here:

 

Point A:

I don't miss the fact that Wizards have no Battle Tactics, no armor penetration, no hide and no things like a perma-stun, etc. What caused the discussion here was the initial quote:

 

Fire ball is kinda cool though that cast time is a bitch 

i wish we got that insta cast spell though 

 

All I did was to highlight the fact that high cast speed values already create an unfair DPS inbalance for both Wizards and Sorcerers. Of course, this doesn't do anything against being one-shotted, nor does it really help to one-shot as well. So my early comment was that an instant cast skill (similar to Sorcerer's Memorize) might surely improve the Wizard, but be the riskiest way.

 

I even share the wish for a faster firebolt spam, but I still keep an eye on the overall skill balance. And although Wizards are a doormat-class in certain situations, players have to admit that this class isn't free of inbalances either.

 

Point B:

I never said, that a vigor nerf would solve all the problems. I said, it would fix several things. So you're right that it neither affect the maximum damage, nor the first use of skills. It wouldn't fix DoTs either. But all that is true for the Wizard skills as well. It wouldn't affect Firebolt and would neither affect the max. damage of Fireball nor the DoT.

 

But if you lower the vigor rates from 50%+ to 20%, both Shield Charge and Shield Bash drop from 10sec to 18sec cooldown. No more perma-stuns by Priests, no more perma-active Shadow Armors, etc., etc.  Sure, Frost Diver would drop from 2.5sec to a 4sec as well, but tell me who suffers most? The Wizard?

 

So let's check cast speed.

As I've said, Ymir = 15% || Wind Emblem = 20% cast speed. So even if a Wizard wouldn't be able to achieve more than a 20% starting cast speed after the nerf, he could still be 55% easily. And given enough pyro stacks, back accessories and pump-it pills bonuses, he would still be able to reach the cap of 80%. And Wizards would still benefit from Fireball Mastery and could still focus on a "zero-casting-time" trigger of Fire Emblem. Really an unfair suggestion?

 

Instead of the over-used Priest example, let's use a rarely mentioned one: A Soulmakers can start a fight by casting Sacrifice from a range of 25m, knocking the target down for 3sec and either follow up with an Immunity or Soul Extinctions from a range of 25m away. The casting time of Sacrifice can be cut down to 0.2sec, so better be fast if you want to get into range. And in combination with a broken vigor formula, Soul Extinction creates a perma-snare, usable at 25m range. So I don't know how you fight this class as a Wizard, but such a nonsense wouldn't be possible (or at least quite hard) after the fix I mentioned.

 

And in regard of cast speed vs. movement speed, THAT one would be really easy to fix: Remove the speed bonus from Ymir/Awake, remove WoE speed buffs and nerf Wind Pots to 30%. And I already suggested this as well.

[MingMei]

Ok, it seems there are a few misunderstandings here:

 

Point A:

I don't miss the fact that Wizards have no Battle Tactics, no armor penetration, no hide and no things like a perma-stun, etc. What caused the discussion here was the initial quote:

 

 

All I did was to highlight the fact that high cast speed values already create an unfair DPS inbalance for both Wizards and Sorcerers. Of course, this doesn't do anything against being one-shotted, nor does it really help to one-shot as well. So my early comment was that an instant cast skill (similar to Sorcerer's Memorize) might surely improve the Wizard, but be the riskiest way.

 

I even share the wish for a faster firebolt spam, but I still keep an eye on the overall skill balance. And although Wizards are a doormat-class in certain situations, players have to admit that this class isn't free of inbalances either.

 

Point B:

I never said, that a vigor nerf would solve all the problems. I said, it would fix several things. So you're right that it neither affect the maximum damage, nor the first use of skills. It wouldn't fix DoTs either. But all that is true for the Wizard skills as well. It wouldn't affect Firebolt and would neither affect the max. damage of Fireball nor the DoT.

 

But if you lower the vigor rates from 50%+ to 20%, both Shield Charge and Shield Bash drop from 10sec to 18sec cooldown. No more perma-stuns by Priests, no more perma-active Shadow Armors, etc., etc.  Sure, Frost Diver would drop from 2.5sec to a 4sec as well, but tell me who suffers most? The Wizard?

 

So let's check cast speed.

As I've said, Ymir = 15% || Wind Emblem = 20% cast speed. So even if a Wizard wouldn't be able to achieve more than a 20% starting cast speed after the nerf, he could still be 55% easily. And given enough pyro stacks, back accessories and pump-it pills bonuses, he would still be able to reach the cap of 80%. And Wizards would still benefit from Fireball Mastery and could still focus on a "zero-casting-time" trigger of Fire Emblem. Really an unfair suggestion?

 

Instead of the over-used Priest example, let's use a rarely mentioned one: A Soulmakers can start a fight by casting Sacrifice from a range of 25m, knocking the target down for 3sec and either follow up with an Immunity or Soul Extinctions from a range of 25m away. The casting time of Sacrifice can be cut down to 0.2sec, so better be fast if you want to get into range. And in combination with a broken vigor formula, Soul Extinction creates a perma-snare, usable at 25m range. So I don't know how you fight this class as a Wizard, but such a nonsense wouldn't be possible (or at least quite hard) after the fix I mentioned.

 

And in regard of cast speed vs. movement speed, THAT one would be really easy to fix: Remove the speed bonus from Ymir/Awake, remove WoE speed buffs and nerf Wind Pots to 30%. And I already suggested this as well.

 

Depending on how they would add memorize to Wiz it just might be the skill that they need to be a good class

 

in pve situation their casting is fast enough especially with those insta-cast proc

in pvp even capped casting isnt good enough, thats why i want a controllable insta cast rather than proc

 

 

@vigor 

i dont think SM are capable of FULLY locking someone, i could shave off cd with vigor but then casting would be another problem 

that said there will always be a window to use teleport.... not that it mattered

sm got other ways to kill you. out-sustained you or lock you out of range, given the choice id rather out-sustained the wiz

the only scenario that id use snare lock is if the SM's gears is unrefined vs a +20 gear wiz

if both are unrefined then SM would win with a simple laser pew pew no need to snare lock 

 

anyway i think the balance they did with eddga gears did help wiz a bit 

it bring down the vigor other class could have from gears, wiz wouldnt miss the vigor since they dont have much to begin with 

[Greven79]

@ Lockdown:

Casting time is a much lower issue than vigor. You get 15% from Awake, 5% from pills, 2% from back accessories and you don't start with a high casting time anyways. Vigor needs a bit more to master and currently, I need to be linked to someone.

 

@ Controllable insta-cast:

I'm not the one to stop such an idea, have proposed it by myself and supported it on several occations (f.e. by removing the proc from Fire Emblem and add it as 100% chance to Seal Explosion instead). But it's still the riskiest choice and in my opinion, it won't be what the Wizard needs "to be a good class". A Lightning Walk, Shield Boomerang, Judex Stun, SM-Sacrifice might still cause you to be stunned first, it won't help much against Assassins & Rogues and barely help against Beastmasters. So the only candidates to for an improved win chance are Sorcerers and maybe Rangers (never had a fight against a Crecentia as a Wizard).

 

Keep in mind that the 0sec casting time still forces you to stop for a very short time. I still can't shoot & run even with a triggered Fire Emblem or Memorize.

[MingMei]

@ Lockdown:

Casting time is a much lower issue than vigor. You get 15% from Awake, 5% from pills, 2% from back accessories and you don't start with a high casting time anyways. Vigor needs a bit more to master and currently, I need to be linked to someone.

 

@ Controllable insta-cast:

I'm not the one to stop such an idea, have proposed it by myself and supported it on several occations (f.e. by removing the proc from Fire Emblem and add it as 100% chance to Seal Explosion instead). But it's still the riskiest choice and in my opinion, it won't be what the Wizard needs "to be a good class". A Lightning Walk, Shield Boomerang, Judex Stun, SM-Sacrifice might still cause you to be stunned first, it won't help much against Assassins & Rogues and barely help against Beastmasters. So the only candidates to for an improved win chance are Sorcerers and maybe Rangers (never had a fight against a Crecentia as a Wizard).

 

Keep in mind that the 0sec casting time still forces you to stop for a very short time. I still can't shoot & run even with a triggered Fire Emblem or Memorize.

 

@bolded that is what im concern with casting that is why i said even capped casting wouldnt be good enough in pvp , i could only hope that if they choose to implement a memorize like skill they let us run around while shooting 

[mirakurous]

Since no VCR step here to say something, I will keep pushing forward this topic.

 

So, I finally get to ML20 with my Wizard, and found that:

 

- We have to cast (and hit) like 10 skills to be able to cast Flame Explosion

- All of Wizard damage is based on Mage skills (except for the AoE)

- Inferno has little damage and, well, it SPLITS among targets (why? the damage is already low...)

- If you get stunned, you die

- Pyromaniac is a bad joke

 

I still do not have much knowledge, but I know enough to say that this class is broken. You people who play longer than me and have more knowledge of the class, please, let's keep moving forward this topic. This is a cool class and it deserves better things than it have now.

 

[Emilizzard]

do we have VCR? seems like they applied only for title and have no intention to do something for our class

 

 

Since no VCR step here to say something, I will keep pushing forward this topic.

 

Sorry, I was so used to this forum being dead I forgot to check it occasionally. In addition, forums participation has never really been one of my strong points, so I don't get seen here a lot. My apologies.

 

Yes, I exist. And since pretty much everybody else introduced themselves: I started in spring 2014. I did not have the opportunity to play LotS, as I hadn't discovered the game yet, which is unfortunate but can't be helped at this point. However, the first character I really got into was my Wizard, and I loved playing it. I played solo for the most part until forced to party for Master Level grind, so I initially had a hard time understanding why everybody hated Wizards so much, since it didn't seem to be a problem aside from that horrid SP drain. In addition, I choose to not participate in PvP, as it doesn't interest me; however, I'm more than happy to listen to an explanation of it to enlighten myself on the subject.

 

Unfortunately for balance issues, this past VCR term has been focused mostly on attempting to turn Forgotten Payon into a good update; we'll see how that goes on Monday. But enough about that, since it's being discussed elsewhere. We are currently setting up to re-focus on the balance issues.

 

The current term is almost up, and Njoror will be opening applications soon, so if any of you wish to work on it, please do apply. I plan to re-apply so we can maybe get something done with Wizard. The setup for our re-focus is happening now, shortly before the term ends, so that when the new term begins, we can jump right in and start working on the actual issues. This new balancing will hopefully focus on an overall balance both within each class and between all classes, and will not be focusing on adjusting percentages as it has been in the past. We are being encouraged to change skills around as needed for each class in order that we may achieve balance.

 

Now, as far as Wizard skills are concerned:

• Fire Bolt: I don't really have an opinion on Fire Bolt at this time, it's certainly not high on my priority list of skills to 'fix'.
• Fire Ball: The major fix I see this skill needing is the fix all DoTs need, and that is that they shouldn't ignore defense. When the skill says it should do a DoT of 30% of the initial value, and instead does one for more than the initial value (on a Crit with element bonus in DWL), there's definitely something that needs to change. In addition, I'd like to see this skill moved to the Wizard tree, or give the Wizard tree a Mastery-type skill that will unlock its full potential; Sorcerers have plenty of other attack skills they can utilize.
• Firestarter/Fire Flower: The DoT on this is definitely too low, as mentioned before, and the damage was significantly reduced with the release of AoV. For a class that seems like it should specialize in burning things/setting things on fire, this skill is a poor example of that.
• Pyromaniac: Unless you're in a long boss fight, this definitely takes too long to build. And for what, a boost in cast time for 30 seconds and/or a cast of Flame Explosion.
• Flame Explosion: I just checked this skill yesterday to ensure it hadn't changed since prior reports that I had read. Basically, for building up your Pyro and spending 10 points on this skill, it's like 2 quick casts of Fire Ball that give a 3 sec stun instead of a DoT. The Pyro stacks can't be built fast enough in PvP, and PvE bosses can't be stunned. I'll stick to my typical Fire Ball and spend those 10 points elsewhere, thanks. At the very least, it would be cool to see the old animation return.
• Inferno: This skill has many things I have an issue with:
  • Damage is split between the 10 targets it can hit. So, if you do 1k damage when it hits 1 target, if you hit 4 targets they'll each get 250 damage. Compare to Rangers' similar skill Multi Shot, which doesn't split damage.
  • Cooldown at 1 point is 30 seconds. Again, compare to the Ranger skill, which has a cooldown of 3 seconds at 1 point.
  • Range: 7 meters, which is fairly short. Taking another casual glance at Multi Shot, you'll read that it also gets 7 meters... but it doesn't. It gets 15 meters distance, since the actual distance and description don't match.
  • DoT: Inferno causes Fire Flower, which I've already stated isn't a debuff worth talking about in its current form. This is the only point where this skill does not get outclassed by Multi Shot, as it applies Wedge, which is just as bad.
• Meteor Storm: This skill is the only benefit to Inferno, since it gets a bit of extra damage on any target that has Fire Flower. But, then again, Rangers' Multi Shot/Arrow Shower work this way, too. With a bigger range on both (which I don't mind, as they are Rangers). Compare this skill to Sorcerer's Lord of Vermillion though, and we're completely outclassed (plus the heal skills they may or may not use).
• Levitation: It really doesn't look like much, and I'm not too keen on actually putting points in it just yet, but it might have potential. In theory, if you had max vigor, Teleport would be down to 5 seconds of CD, which provides just enough time for Levitation to fill with its speed boost. So, max vigor would be required, but you'd get an insanely mobile Wizard. Which would be fantastic if we could use more than 3 skills (LBolt, Firestarter, Inferno) while running.
• Frost Nova: Outside of PvP (which, as I've stated, I know little about), this skill appears to have 1 use: so that Sorcerers can use you to boost their damage. This seems a little strange, given that they are supposed to be a support class.
• Ice Wall: I guess the only use I can see for this in PvE-type situations is if you accidentally pull aggro.

That's mostly just my take on what I've seen so far, based on my own experiences and what I remember reading about before. Even though this VCR term hasn't been focused on class balance, I've still been thinking about it in the shadows. While doing this, I also asked Njoror what the original intended purpose of Wizards was, and he said that it was probably supposed to be a glass cannon - meaning, high DPS output, but very vulnerable to attacks. I believe this vulnerability could be negated by allowing more movement during skill use, as Priests have. However, as Greven has stated, this may cause the damage to go down. However, in the long run, I would hope to see the class be more sustainable in battle and desirable to play.

 

As stated before, applications are opening up again soon, and I encourage anybody who wishes to improve this class and balance it with the other classes to join me in applying. As the Wizard class is mostly dead, it will be nice to see some others who actively play the class to join in to make an effort to improve it.

[faku1810]

Yo ho ho ~~

 

I'm not a wizard, so I won't be getting involved in this discussion much. Just wanted to restate what Tou previously said, we're aware that as VCRs we haven't been really active on the Class department. 

 

Please understand though, that Forgotten payon was a Major update coming, and as you may already know from what Taiwan has shown, we really needed all our focus on that to get it fixed somehow (we're still trying ;_; )

 

As it was said, Class rebalance is the next term big focus now that FP is gonna be released; we're setting everything up so it's easy to keep an eye on suggestions made for rebalance on every class, so it's not like each VCR will only push for what's good for them. We're all into this to make a global suggestion to change all classes together, so that balance can REALLY be a thing.

 

So yeah, if you wanna be part of this process and help it come true, please join us when the application's open. Of course we'll still be gathering feedback from players so even if you don't want to join, please know that we're always there to listen. We'll probably have more time to lurk these forums now, so threads like this won't go unnoticed by us (or at least we'll try as much as we can >_<)

 

Thanks for understanding, *vanishes into thin air*

 

Oh, before i forget, we've been taking notes and having spontaneous discussions about classes and skills in our "free time" between FP feedback sessions, so it's not like we're starting with empty hands this new rebalance thing.

Edited by faku1810, 05 February 2015 - 07:25 PM.

[1633130515105152960]

• Frost Nova: Outside of PvP (which, as I've stated, I know little about), this skill appears to have 1 use: so that Sorcerers can use you to boost their damage. This seems a little strange, given that they are supposed to be a support class.

 

Change it for  Storm Gust, a RO1 Wizard's water element AoE (it's a snowstorm)->http://ratemyserver....kill_db&skid=89
Can set the frezze as % succes rate

 

My english are not so good (I speak spanish) and that's why i don't try to be a VCR xD

[Emilizzard]

Change it for  Storm Gust, a RO1 Wizard's water element AoE (it's a snowstorm)->http://ratemyserver....kill_db&skid=89
Can set the frezze as % succes rate

 

My english are not so good (I speak spanish) and that's why i don't try to be a VCR xD

 

I've been meaning to look into Storm Gust actually, so thanks for the link!

 

We have plenty of VCRs who speak Spanish and will be able to help you out (plus I'm starting to learn), so don't worry too much about it.

 

[1633130515105152960]

I've been meaning to look into Storm Gust actually, so thanks for the link!

 

We have plenty of VCRs who speak Spanish and will be able to help you out (plus I'm starting to learn), so don't worry too much about it.

 

 

Don't  think I can do it this year, surely I will be very busy with university and time here is sever_time + 5 hours. Maybe next winter (summer here) I will have the required availability

Here more wizard skills -> http://ratemyserver....=skill_db&jid=9

[Emilizzard]

Don't  think I can do it this year, surely I will be very busy with university and time here is sever_time + 5 hours. Maybe next winter (summer here) I will have the required availability

Here more wizard skills -> http://ratemyserver....=skill_db&jid=9

 

OK, whatever you feel you can do. Terms have lasted 3 months each so far, and I'm assuming that will continue. And you can always put in feedback here.

[1633130515105152960]

OK, whatever you feel you can do. Terms have lasted 3 months each so far, and I'm assuming that will continue. And you can always put in feedback here.

 

That's what I'll do
 

[mirakurous]

Thanks for answering this topic Emilizzard! We're glad to see that VCRs care about this class!

 

For Storm Gust, I have a guildmate (Kanhime) that is a fellow Wizard like you! 

She sent a ticket to support with a chart of RO1 skills reworked for RO2. Storm Gust is one of those.

 

 

If you want, I can ask her permission to post those here for we complain analyze them!

[Emilizzard]

Thanks for answering this topic Emilizzard! We're glad to see that VCRs care about this class!

 

For Storm Gust, I have a guildmate (Kanhime) that is a fellow Wizard like you! 

She sent a ticket to support with a chart of RO1 skills reworked for RO2. Storm Gust is one of those.

 

 

If you want, I can ask her permission to post those here for we complain analyze them!

 

That would be great! I'd love to have a bunch of options of things to pull ideas from.

 

[mirakurous]

Actually she asked me to post this on forums so I think she (and maybe gms/devs?) want our feedback.

 

Before we complain discuss, let's put things on the right places - She got caught in all those things and maybe don't even know about this topic before sending the suggestion. Also, this is a rework from RO1 skills to RO2, so, with all these things said, this isn't a solution for Wizard problems, this is just a help for you guys find the solution.

 

Things she said that have to be in consideration as well:

 

 

 

- The floating info on skills (damage, cooldown, skill replaces, etc.) are just examples. They shouldn’t get too much attention.
- I didn’t made this to be a full overall of Wizard skill tree, I thought of them as something that could replace some of the existing skills or coexist along them.

Ok, stopping now with all this crap (  ), here goes the skills:

 

 

Fire Pillar 1/5 (Replaces for Firestarter?)

A trap that you can put in any place in a 15m area. When an enemy steps on it, a giant pillar of fire will stun the enemy by 3 seconds, do X% of magic damage and add a dot equaling half of the initial damage for 30sec. If the same target steps on another Fire Pillar, the dot stacks. Max of 3 dots in each enemy. Fire pillar trap will lasts 10sec before it expires.

X: (LVL 1) 88% (LVL 2) 104% (LVL 3) 120% (LVL 4) 136% (LVL 5) 152%

Y: Half of initial damage every 2 seconds

CD: (LVL 1~5) 12sec 

 

Storm Gust 1/6 (Replace for Ice Barrier?)

Forms a great storm gust that do X% magical damage up to 10 enemies in an area of effect. This skill will lands a total of 10 hits¹, with 20% of chance per hit to freeze the enemy for 3 seconds. Frozen enemies don't receive further damage from this skill.

X: (LVL 1) 314% (LVL 2) 372% (LVL 3) 430% (LVL 4) 488% (LVL 5) 544% (LVL 6) 602%

CD: (LVL 1~6) 10sec 

 

Safety Wall 1/3 (Replaces for Levitation?)  (*personal note: YES YES YES YES!!!!)

Creates a safety wall that protects the caster from any attack by X% seconds. If the caster moves away from the wall, he/she will receive damage anyway.

X: (LVL 1) 2sec (LVL 2) 4sec (LVL 3) 6sec

CD: (LVL 1) 50sec (LVL 2) 40sec (LVL 3) 30sec 

 

Fire Wall 1/5 (Replace for Inferno?)

Creates a wall of fire 7m in front of caster that continuously inflict X% magic damage up to 10 enemies who stands on it.²

X: (LVL 1) 10% (LVL 2) 12% (LVL 3) 14% (LVL 4) 16% (LVL 5) 18%

CD: (LVL 1~5) 12sec 

 

Energy Coat 1/3³

Stackable skill that reduces X% of physical damage (not magical) by draining Y% of caster SP per each hit. You can stack a max of 3 Coats. Additional SP will be consumed with each stack. Coats will last 30 seconds and they renew it's duration after each stack.

X: (LVL 1) 4% (LVL 2) 8% (LVL 3) 12%

Y: (LVL 1) 5% (LVL 2) 3% (LVL 3) 1%

CD: (LVL 1~3) 3sec

 

Stone Curse 1/3³

Curses the target and add a Xsec countdown. When this countdown is over, petrifies the enemy by Ysec, making him/her unable to perform any action within this time.

X: (LVL 1) 20sec (LVL 2) 15sec (LVL 3) 10sec

Y: (LVL 1) 2sec (LVL 2) 4sec (LVL 3) 6sec

CD: (LVL 1~3) 30sec

 

Sight 1/1³

Reveals hidden enemies. Lasts for 10 seconds.

CD: (LVL 1~3) 30sec

 

Sightrasher 1/5³

Cancels sight in order to cast an explosion of fire around the user that deal X% magic damage on 5 nearby enemies.

X: (LVL 1) 202% (LVL 2) 234% (LVL 3) 268% (LVL 4) 300% (LVL 5) 332%

CD: (LVL 1~3) 60sec

 

Endow Tornado 1/1³

Make next skill a blitz series skill.

CD: (LVL 1) 30sec

 

Electric Walk 1/5³

For 4 seconds, generates a eletric field under caster feet. Wherever caster run, the eletric field will create a trail and damage enemies in it by x% of magical damage. Blitz series skill. Lasts for 10 seconds.

X: (LVL 1) 12% (LVL 2) 14% (LVL 3) 16% (LVL 4) 18% (LVL 5) 20%

CD: (LVL 1~5) 12sec

 

White Imprison 1/5³

Imprisons a single target on a white magic curtain for X sec. Target can't move and don't receive damage while imprisoned. When released, he/she receives Y% of magical damage and can't be imprisoned again for 2 minutes. The caster can imprison him/herself, but will take damage as well.

X: (LVL 1) 2 (LVL 2) 4 (LVL 3) 6 (LVL 4) 8 (LVL 5) 10

Y: (LVL 1) 214% (LVL 2) 247% (LVL 3) 280% (LVL 4) 313% (LVL 5) 346%

CD: (LVL 1~5) 90sec

 

Summon Fireball 1/3³

Puts a fireball trap on ground. Any enemy that steps on it will receive damage based on your Fireball level.

CD: (LVL 1) 60sec (LVL 2) 40sec (LVL 3) 20sec

 

Soul Drain 1/3³

Buff. When this skill is activated, every monster that user kills will recover caster SP twice as the monster level plus 15. For example, if the caster kills a LVL50 monster, he/she will receive 115 SP back. Lasts for 10 seconds.

CD: (LVL 1) 60sec (LVL 2) 45sec (LVL 3) 30sec

 

Mystical Amplification 1/10³

Next skill will have it's effect boosted by X%.

X: (LVL 1) 4% (LVL 2) 8% (LVL 3) 12% (LVL 4) 16% (LVL 5) 20% (LVL 6) 24% (LVL 7) 28% (LVL 8) 32% (LVL 9) 36% (LVL 10) 40%

CD: (LVL 1~10) 30sec

 

 

¹: Initial damage splits among hits, like in Meteor Storm, Bladestorm, Arrow Shower, etc.

²: Similar to Crescentia's Land of Darkness, but a bit more linear AoE

³: Not sure if new or replace

 

 

Edited by mirakurous, 10 February 2015 - 12:02 PM.

[Greven79]

First of all, keep in mind that using RO1 as a reference is always risky. A lot of things changed significantly: Casting time, attribute bonuses. player- vs. 'squares-size', etc.. So you can't really copy RO1 skills.

 

And this brings me to the suggested spells/skills: Traps, trails or LoR-like effects don't won't work that well in RO2. It's more difficult to determine who steps in/on and who leaves the area. So Fire Pillar, Electric Walk (why no Fire Walk btw?), Summon Fireball and Fire Wall are problematic.  The suggested Fire Pillar f.e. is similar to the existing RO2 Fire Trap. So ask yourself, if you would want it!

 

Storm Gust:

Skills like Meteor Shower, Magnus Exorcism, etc. hit in a quick succession even if the target moves out of the area. That's because the targets are determined only at the start. So if a player thinks that it would be of any use to move while using Brandish Storm, he's mistaken.

 

With the current hit chances of 80%+, the suggested Storm Gust will ALWAYS freeze the targets, dealing 180~240% damage (frozen after 3~4 'hits', no more damage taken once frozen). In addition, the 10sec starting cooldown with a 3sec freeze is inbalanced and could lead to a perma-freeze, if the cooldown is lowered by vigor.

 

So you would have to increase the cooldown and would end with a Frost Nova that can be used at a certain distance (how to aim?) and deals minor damage.

 

Safety Wall:

The skill suggestion was altered enoumously. Usually, the wall protects against physical melee damage and wears of after a certain number of attacks. But it lasts longer if left untouched. So it's good example that you can't copy skills from RO1. Different attack speeds, no player pushing, no mobs with magical attacks, no counterspells, etc.

 

But about the actual suggestion: To rephrase it: A 100% damage reduction that allows the caster/target to continue to attack, but gets canceled if the target moves (unlikely that the target returns within the 6sec duration). So it would similar to a Shadow Armor. Not impossible. but definitely be a major power-shift for both Wizards and Priests.

 

Energy Coat:

Another major power-shift. The suggestion means that you achieve a permanent 36% damage reduction (against phyiscal). This skill alone would make the Wizard one of the best tanks in PvE against powerful, lone targets (there aren't many mobs in RO2 with magical attacks). It's like a perma-active Endure (Warrior). Unlike the original, the suggested version doesn't get weaker, if the Wizard consumes SP for other spells/skills.

 

Stone Curse:

It's a delayed 'stun' effect. Completely useless at level 1 because non-boss opponents rarely live for 20sec. It gets better with additional levels, but is still too weak compared to single 5sec or a double-3sec stun / knockdown.

 

Sight:

A Detection with 100% success chance and a continuous effect. So let's introduce all the other stealth removing effects of RO1 and let's stick to the original drawbacks of RO1 hiding, etc. as well... would be hilarious to see the following -_-storm.

 

Sighttrasher:

A simple AoE with low damage output, a by far too high cooldown, an additional prerequisite, but assumingly higher range?

 

Endow Tornado:

That one is strange, because RO2 skills don't have an allocated element. So I guess it's just the wish to get the +100% damage bonus, if the target is frozen or the wizard has wind crest stacks..

 

White Imprison:

Hahaha. I can already see how this skill gets abused. Just imprison the priest or SM and watch the rest die, if you don't like the party anyways. Still striclty better than an Ice Wall or Feral Defense.

 

Soul Drain:

Sounds weird and unbalanced. If your AoE kills 10 condors, you recover ~1200 SP. So I can almost see how Wizards curse other players for 'kill stealing'. IMO drinking a purple / red pot is more balanced, as well as a constant SP recovery via Water Emblem.

 

Mystical Amplification:

Basically, a slightly different version of Seal Explosion. The latter grants +20% MATK for the next 20sec, but has cooldown of 120sec. Cut both duration and cooldown by four and you have 5sec || 30sec. Now double the effect, but cut the duration down again and you have your Mystical Amplification.... Or just copy Aspersio.

 

Well, except for overly powerful damage reduction skills (Safety Wall & Energy Coat), I doubt that the rest would change the class that much and less likely for the better.

______________

 

BTW: Isn't it interesting that the RO1 Wizard did have a lot or Water, Lightning or Earth skills as well. Jupitel Thunder and Lord of Vermillion didn't belong to Sorcerers either. Passive skills like free cast, etc. aren't copied....So it seems that it is not that easy to find a proper way to copy skills. And this eventually puts us back to the question, how to balance classes.

[mirakurous]

Okay Greven...

 

Her intention is not to copy RO1 skills, but find some way to rework them to RO2.

 

Here's my quote:

- This is a rework from RO1 skills to RO2, so [...], this isn't a solution for Wizard problems, this is just a help for you guys find the solution.

 

And here's her quote:

- The floating info on skills (damage, cooldown, skill replaces, etc.) are just examples. They shouldn’t get too much attention.
- I didn’t made this to be a full overall of Wizard skill tree, I thought of them as something that could replace some of the existing skills or coexist along them.

 

Have in mind that those numbers are examples. You can balance, imbalance, mess with them as you feel like!

 

Now some info she said about skills and also my opinion.

 

Fire Pillar

Just a placeable trap that stuns a poor soul that steps on it. Also add a dot to annoy it. And if the pour soul steps on it again, it will be more doomed. It's not very useful, but still better than Firestarter.

 

Summon Fireball

Another trap but this time is a Fireball that will be on the ground. I don't like it, for me it would be just a waste of points. Or too much overpowered, depending on cooldown.

 

Fire Wall

Not a trap this time. Basically it would be something like Crecentia's Land of Darkness. Interesting in PvE and is better than Inferno (but I still prefer my idea of a Inferno with knockback! Haha!).

 

Storm Gust

Do not quite understand what you mean here. She is just saying that Storm Gust would hit like Meteor Storm, but each hit has a chance to freeze the enemy, as in RO1. After you freeze someone, you can't freeze it immediately again, there's already something in the game preventing it. Also, the cd, damage, freezing time, chance of freeze the target after every hit "are just examples. They shouldn't get too much attention." You can edit it and submit here how you think it should be.

 

Safety Wall

I really want this to be in game. Not only for PvP but for all the times that I died in Dark Whisper when our lurer failed to get threat. Definitely better than Ice Barrier.

 

Energy Coat

Nothing more to say since what is in your post is the real thing.

 

Stone Curse

God, the same as is in her quote. Even I don't think the example is good. Also, this is another alternative of Stun skill.

 

*Sigh*t

I imagine the trolls... haha! Only reveal people in an area around the caster though... I think she forgot to put this in description. It isn't all that you said, but also not very good, cause you will only know that the sin or rogue is near when he/she jump on your face. It's not continuously, it lasts for a certain time. Also have high cooldown. Again, the example can be better balanced.

 

*Sigh*trasher

Don't understand that cooldown either. She said something about "Sight have a high cooldown", but still 30sec cooldown anyway. Another skill that the example should be reworked.

 

Endow Tornado and Electric Walk

She said that those skills are an attempt to expand blitz series skills. She failed. (Sorry Kan, i'm still your friend??   )

 

Soul Drain

Don't like it, but can help people in the first levels with their SP problems. I really want to say that pots are better than this skill but now with the nerf on zeny farm... Well, the value of SP gained can be reworked too! (Or zeny farm...)

 

Mystical Amplification

It's just for ONE skill, isn't? Flame explosion lasts for 20 seconds. It could be a combo... Nah, too much points!

 

White Imprison

I forgot to tell her about this skill... Don't know/remember if this skill is supposed to hit party members, but if not, I don't like the idea of a 10 seconds block in PvP. Imagine Wizards imprisoning each other at the start of a duel? Greven, what you think of this (or even Ice Barrier) being a skill that can imprison only yourself and also removes the threat? (Like Smoke Bomb, but without Hide). You can use this to revive party members. I think I will pass this to her...

 

 

I agree with you, it is not easy to find a proper balance for classes, but if people like you keep helping, maybe we can. We just have to try! Also, don't think I'm teasing you. On the contrary, we want to know everything you think because we respect your knowledge. We learn a lot of your posts! 

 

[lokasenna]

And class got nerfed again with the eddga gears:

 

LOL wow

 

You know guys, I have been a wiz since LOTS, stayed wiz when AoV hit (fireflower, our main DoT, got nerfed to the ground), stayed wiz when everyone else rolled to ranger during the archer-wedge-colo-spam period, or to priest when you know priest went from either full heals or full battle priest (remember when there was a distinction?) to a killing machine, stayed wiz when everyone could faceroll PVE and literally all a wizard was good for was being an Int buff. A Sorc has better DPS with Fireball. Lol. Vigor/Cast Speed nerfed on our gear when it was the only saving grace of such a flashy and useless class in WoE/colo.

 

v0r10n has brought this up again and again, hell, all of us has brought rebalance up way before FP. Before VCRs even. I remember Greven giving suggestions way before as well. I don't quite think it's a VCR issue since I have read the previous reports from the start and they have been quite comprehensive, it's more of a what the devs choose to implement. It has been a year more or less and forgive me for not having the faith that something will happen. 

[Arbalist]

You can't expect every set to keep dominating the set before it, this is where the Dayr power creep started. You should be looking at Eddga gear as an upgrade from Colo set, not just from Cazar. Cazar is definitely superior in PVE for most classes, while Eddga is best for PVP using those CLS runes. Same as with Colo gear, it's pick and choose which gears to sacrifice for the PVP Dmg Increase. One thing that chart doesn't show is how Eddga gear also has amazing hones in most cases compared to Cazar to make up for the initial drop in seed slots. Hones I've seen on Rod include 4-6% PVP Dmg Inc., 1500 MATK, 150 VIT/INT, 200+ Vigor. It can also equip +80 runes (though compared to Cazar which can equip +50 runes now, it'd just be +30 * 12 = +360 stat difference).

My personal generalization is that for most classes:
For PVE stay ML 30.
For PVP in WoE, Jehoon, or Duels go for ML 35 to mix Eddga and Cazar.

[Greven79]

Storm Gust
Do not quite understand what you mean here. She is just saying that Storm Gust would hit like Meteor Storm, but each hit has a chance to freeze the enemy, as in RO1. After you freeze someone, you can't freeze it immediately again, there's already something in the game preventing it. Also, the cd, damage, freezing time, chance of freeze the target after every hit

 

What I mean is the following:

Who is hit by an AoE is determined only at the start of every skill use, never in between... even if the AoE hits several times. If you start under a Meteor Shower, you still get hit, even if move out. And if you start outside a Meteor Shower and move in while the skill is still ongoing, you won't get hit at all..

 

So the Storm Gust suggested will either hit zero times or the full number of times. There's nothing in between. So IF someone is within the area of effect, it's very certain that he end up frozen. He can't really avoid being hit. And due to the fact that you won't receive any more damage once you're frozen, the skill will rarely deal more than 240% damage. It would require a hit chance below 75%.

 

Safety Wall

I really want this to be in game. Not only for PvP but for all the times that I died in Dark Whisper when our lurer failed to get threat. Definitely better than Ice Barrier.

 

You don't take (significant) danage while you turtle yourself under a Wall of Ice..And being unable to deal damage for a few seconds, isn't really that important in PvE. So these two things can't be the reason, why you want a highly modified saftety wall instead. In fact, due to the tremendous changes, I question the reasons even more.

 

Soul Drain

Don't like it, but can help people in the first levels with their SP problems. I really want to say that pots are better than this skill but now with the nerf on zeny farm... Well, the value of SP gained can be reworked too! (Or zeny farm...)

 

I'd prefer the latter: Rework the SP costs.

 

Mystical Amplification

It's just for ONE skill, isn't? Flame explosion lasts for 20 seconds. It could be a combo... Nah, too much points!

 

Well, a while back, I tried to explain why Priests shouldn't have Aspersio. Basically, it's a stereotype // flavor thing. For me, Priests represents the calm, caring and sometimes shy characters. Soul Extortion is IMO the best-fitting skill for that type, as well as LoR and LoD like zone effects. (see Saintess and her 'bubble' at Payon Forest).

 

Priests shouldn't be agile of fast, but considerate. They focus on avoiding unrevertable mistakes, not on acting most efficiently. And therefore shouldn't be focussed on burst damage either.

 

That's why I would give it to the Sorcerer. Not because of some RO1 reference, but due to the fact that they represent the 'gifted', intelligent, but unconcentrated & unorganized stereotype. So it's more a reference to a D&D universe. And these character traits separate them from Wizards. The latter ARE well-organized, well-educated and focussed on strategy. So they are more the Controller class type.

 

White Imprison

I forgot to tell her about this skill... Don't know/remember if this skill is supposed to hit party members, but if not, I don't like the idea of a 10 seconds block in PvP. Imagine Wizards imprisoning each other at the start of a duel? Greven, what you think of this (or even Ice Barrier) being a skill that can imprison only yourself and also removes the threat? (Like Smoke Bomb, but without Hide). You can use this to revive party members. I think I will pass this to her...

 

Don't get me wrong on that! It would be ok if you can use the skill on either you or an enemy, but I would exclude teammates. If you use it on an enemy, it's similar to a long sleep or knockdown that reduces damage dealt to that target as well. And if you use it on yourself, it's like an Assumptio or Ice Wall that damages you. Threat changes would be ok.

[mirakurous]

 

What I mean is the following:

Who is hit by an AoE is determined only at the start of every skill use, never in between... even if the AoE hits several times. If you start under a Meteor Shower, you still get hit, even if move out. And if you start outside a Meteor Shower and move in while the skill is still ongoing, you won't get hit at all..

 

So the Storm Gust suggested will either hit zero times or the full number of times. There's nothing in between. So IF someone is within the area of effect, it's very certain that he end up frozen. He can't really avoid being hit. And due to the fact that you won't receive any more damage once you're frozen, the skill will rarely deal more than 240% damage. It would require a hit chance below 75%.

 

 

I understand your point but I am sure that isn't what is suggested. You're saying that you can't move out after you get the first hit and if you get the first hit you will get all hits anyway, isn't? A rework for this can be determine in what hit Storm Gust would freeze the target. Like, from start, it hits the enemy 4 times and then freezes it.

Seems too much work for them...

 

You don't take (significant) danage while you turtle yourself under a Wall of Ice..And being unable to deal damage for a few seconds, isn't really that important in PvE. So these two things can't be the reason, why you want a highly modified saftety wall instead. In fact, due to the tremendous changes, I question the reasons even more.

 

You still receive nearly half damage. Half damage can't avoid your certain death. Also, you can't move, use pots or cast your spells. Instead of Ice Barrier, I use Frost Nova to stop them from move and Teleport away. 

 

Don't get me wrong on that! It would be ok if you can use the skill on either you or an enemy, but I would exclude teammates. If you use it on an enemy, it's similar to a long sleep or knockdown that reduces damage dealt to that target as well. And if you use it on yourself, it's like an Assumptio or Ice Wall that damages you. Threat changes would be ok.

 

I talked with Kanhime about that. She said that it isn't supposed to hit your teammates, only enemies and yourself. 

[Greven79]

I understand your point but I am sure that isn't what is suggested. You're saying that you can't move out after you get the first hit and if you get the first hit you will get all hits anyway, isn't?

 

Correct.

 

You still receive nearly half damage. Half damage can't avoid your certain death. Also, you can't move, use pots or cast your spells. Instead of Ice Barrier, I use Frost Nova to stop them from move and Teleport away.

 

Depends on where you tested this. I'd call this a 'bug' not a 'feature'. This happens, if the devs don't consider the consequences of their changes. How surprising that 100% - X might result in something different than 100%.

[mirakurous]

Depends on where you tested this. I'd call this a 'bug' not a 'feature'. This happens, if the devs don't consider the consequences of their changes. How surprising that 100% - X might result in something different than 100%.

 

so many bugs, so many things that shouldn't be the way they are...

[Emilizzard]

Sorry for going missing so long >_<
 

Actually she asked me to post this on forums so I think she (and maybe gms/devs?) want our feedback.

Thanks for posting those. We did get them via support, too. If anybody is too shy to post them publicly, that's an option, though it may take time until we get them. Alternatively, send me a PM on the forums, and I'll post it up as an anonymous suggestion.

It seems the class subforums will be undergoing some updates, though not as drastic as the recent changes to the whole forum. It will be mostly updating topics or creating new ones with updated info and discussion. As part of this update, I will be creating a new "feedback" thread for current skills, stats, etc. I hope to put it up this week, as soon as I pull all my information together, format it, and all that fancy stuff. It's up right here.

This new feedback thread will contains a list of highly-discussed wizard (and magician) skills, along with the basics of what has been said about them. It will also contains a list of the all of the current skill descriptions and values for each skill point to aid in discussion, regardless of the skill's prior discussion status.

I may also make one for new skills, but these threads have been doing well, so for now we should keep discussing new ideas here. If I do make a new thread for new ideas, it'll be mostly to create a standard format, and I'll try to grab all the ideas from here and the other recent thread and post them there as well.

Thanks~!

Edited by Emilizzard, 24 February 2015 - 05:20 PM.