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Sorc's main burst skill damage


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#1 RenatoKolokoy

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Posted 26 January 2015 - 12:09 PM

Max level of Varetyr Spear can inflict maximum Lightning Magic Dmg of 3200% while Maxed Jupitel Thunder can inflict 3584% Lightning Magic Dmg.  (x2 for frost/proc + x2 crit)

 

Does VS and JT's final damage rely on receiver's defense rate? That thing really bothers me because I can't deal a huge damage on a class that have significant defense rate. Anyone can explain how VS/JT damage calculated? Sorc nuke damage were different in Pre-AOV. (or maybe it shares the same issue with Wiz DPS?)

 

Another question, do we still have Magical block/defense in our stats? I tried to research a bit and somehow convince me that it is not used on reducing any magical skills inflicted on the receiver. Please correct me if I am wrong  :p_smile:


Edited by RenatoKolokoy, 26 January 2015 - 02:42 PM.

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#2 MingMei

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Posted 26 January 2015 - 02:22 PM

i dont know much about Sorc

all i know is POISON type of skill is the only thing that goes trough Armor Defense

but it is still subjected to Damage reduction from skills like water emblem, pvp defense and armor rune

 


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#3 Matsuyuki

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Posted 26 January 2015 - 07:51 PM

Max level of Varetyr Spear can inflict maximum Lightning Magic Dmg of 3200% while Maxed Jupitel Thunder can inflict 3584% Lightning Magic Dmg.  (x2 for frost/proc + x2 crit)

 

Does VS and JT's final damage rely on receiver's defense rate? That thing really bothers me because I can't deal a huge damage on a class that have significant defense rate. Anyone can explain how VS/JT damage calculated? Sorc nuke damage were different in Pre-AOV. (or maybe it shares the same issue with Wiz DPS?)

 

Another question, do we still have Magical block/defense in our stats? I tried to research a bit and somehow convince me that it is not used on reducing any magical skills inflicted on the receiver. Please correct me if I am wrong  :p_smile:


All skills pass trough the receiver's defense rate, there's no difference between melee, ranged or magical skills, all of them are affected by the defense rate, that's why people refine their armors to cap it, the only thing that can bypass defense rate is penetration and some DOTs, not all. And of top of that you have damage reduction via Greenseed Armor runes and Colo T2 with CLS runes, so yeah.


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#4 Greven79

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Posted 27 January 2015 - 02:12 AM

Max level of Varetyr Spear can inflict maximum Lightning Magic Dmg of 3200% while Maxed Jupitel Thunder can inflict 3584% Lightning Magic Dmg.  (x2 for frost/proc + x2 crit)

 

Does VS and JT's final damage rely on receiver's defense rate? That thing really bothers me because I can't deal a huge damage on a class that have significant defense rate. Anyone can explain how VS/JT damage calculated? Sorc nuke damage were different in Pre-AOV. (or maybe it shares the same issue with Wiz DPS?)

 

Another question, do we still have Magical block/defense in our stats? I tried to research a bit and somehow convince me that it is not used on reducing any magical skills inflicted on the receiver. Please correct me if I am wrong  :p_smile:

 

To answer the question: Both Varetyr Spear and Jupitel Thunder are affected by defense, but the average defense rates are much highter than pre-AoV. The calculation is:

 

PSE = STR or INT based physical skill effect = 0.095*MATK + Weapon_avg

SKILL = skill_damage = percentage shown divided by 100

DEF = ((100 - Defense_rate) / 100)

 

Total damage = PSE * SKILL * DEF * other_modifiers

 

The word "physical" is used, because Gravity was too ******* to call it properly.

 

If you hover over your magical attack power, you'll see 2 entries... one of them is your INT-based PSE.

Let's assume you have a PSE of 2,000:

 

Varetyr Spear: 2000 * 8,00 = 16,000

Jupitel Thunder:  2000 * 8,96 = 17,920

 

That's before defense!

 

Like you said, both skills would deal 4 times as much damage, if you achieve a critical hit and the target is frozen or considered frozen. Doesn't sound that awful. But classes usually achieve at least 50% defense rate, which would halve the damage. Against targets with 75% defense rate, damage is divided by 4 instead... and even rogues, rangers, etc. can achieve such a defense rate.

 

Of course, there are also other things, I called other_modifiers. Weapon refinement bonuses are not included in your PSE (blame Gravity), as well as seedrunes or PvP damage increases. On the defensive side, damage reduction is hidden / excluded as well. These modifiers - including armor penetration - are the main source why some classes deal extreme amounts of damage and others receive almost none at all. And the main reason, why a simple guild skill could wreak havoc.

 

Damage over time effects (DoTs) ignore defense rate, as well as any heal or heal over time. The last two even ignore damage reduction, which makes them ideal for testing purposes. (with a PSE of 2k, a lvl5 Rejuvenation would heal ~11k damage).


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#5 RenatoKolokoy

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Posted 27 January 2015 - 07:47 AM

To answer the question: Both Varetyr Spear and Jupitel Thunder are affected by defense

 

 

Thanks Greven for your detailed explanation.

 

IMO, this kind of calculation (damage rely on "defense") is not promoting any balance for all class. Tanks for sure will be the winner on end game. For me, the calculation should be Magical Defense for Magic skills and Defense Rate for Physical damage or skill.

 

Also I find out that there are some food/buff items in RO2 which boost Magical Defense but wait, they are useless LOL


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#6 Greven79

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Posted 27 January 2015 - 11:43 AM

Well, I don't know about this kind of food, but where would be the benefit of dividing defense into two separate versions? Is a thrown Hammer via Lex Divina a physical attack or a magical one? Why wouldn't a mundane armor stop a spear of ice? Or how would a 'magical' armor look like in this case.

 

And it has nothing to do wether this is the 'end game' or not. It's all about whether certain benefits are balanced. F.e. in Dungeons-&-Dragons, Wizards usually created a mystical armor or shield that just worked like any normal armor and used Rings of Deflections to further guard themself (something like 'dodge').

 

And of course, it's also the question of range, speed and many other things.

 

So you're right that it's a huge difference between 50% and 75% defense rate... and I always recommended to bring it down to like 20% to 40%, but I doubt that a distinction between physical and magical damage would help the game to be more balanced.


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#7 RenatoKolokoy

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Posted 28 January 2015 - 09:04 AM

Well, I don't know about this kind of food, but where would be the benefit of dividing defense into two separate versions? Is a thrown Hammer via Lex Divina a physical attack or a magical one? Why wouldn't a mundane armor stop a spear of ice? Or how would a 'magical' armor look like in this case.

 

And it has nothing to do wether this is the 'end game' or not. It's all about whether certain benefits are balanced. F.e. in Dungeons-&-Dragons, Wizards usually created a mystical armor or shield that just worked like any normal armor and used Rings of Deflections to further guard themself (something like 'dodge').

 

And of course, it's also the question of range, speed and many other things.

 

So you're right that it's a huge difference between 50% and 75% defense rate... and I always recommended to bring it down to like 20% to 40%, but I doubt that a distinction between physical and magical damage would help the game to be more balanced.

 

My idea:

 

Tank Classes -High Physical Defense / Lower Magic Def rate compared to Assassin/Rogue/Ranger class

Assassin/Rogue/Ranger - Low Phy. Def / Low Magic Def rate

Magic Class / Priest - Low Phy. Def / High Magic Def Rate

 

Right now, what happened to most of magic class players? They either quit this game after AOV or re rolled to other class because all class can kill us. My defense rate is around 72% with ES but a single ROG can kill me (plus the DOT) or a couple of Sacrifice from SM.

 

The idea is simple. Magic Defense should be based per class/stats and not with the equipment's they have. INT will be the main source of Magic Defense just like RO1 (I know that this will also create imbalance with Knight). 

You're right that bringing down the Defense Rate will be a great factor for re-balance and I agree with it but as with the current trend here, probably it will not happen  :p_smile:


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#8 Arbalist

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Posted 28 January 2015 - 10:22 AM

^Instead of INT, I think Gravity intended to give M.Defense to WIS, which would've made a bit more sense. IMO, it's silly to tie a defense stat to an attacking stat as well, it's kinda like giving Defense bonuses to STR. Magic classes naturally have more WIS than physical classes do, with a few exceptions, so it would fit your mold nicely too. Those exceptions allow more distinction between tank classes too, because as of now, any tank can do any boss easily. Maybe if there were separate defenses, some tanks would have an easier time doing specific bosses than others ;). Developers initially intended for such a purpose for WIS too (guess nobody was buying WIS elixirs :P), which is why Knight had way more WIS than other tanks - it was supposed to be used defensively. However, this was before the stat re-balance, which I suspect confirms that we will never get a secondary M. defense stat because all tanks have the potential to hit Defense cap using VIT alone, removing any kind of distinction. 


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#9 RenatoKolokoy

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Posted 28 January 2015 - 01:15 PM

Oh ya o/

 

 

Let's go back to the topic. Even I have an impressive 3200% and 3584% Lightning Magic Dmg from VS and JT Proc  + Crit respectively and just inflicted a 7-8k damage to a +20 Cazar geared Monk. Then he used Asura to me and I got a 50k damage. Same range of BS, RS, GS, Osi Cards and other_modifiers that Greven mentioned. Now I already know why. Oh btw. My Sorc's gear consist of  Cazar top and hood and the rest are Himelmez, all +20 also. 

 

GGWP RO2 devs  :no1: 

 


Edited by RenatoKolokoy, 28 January 2015 - 01:16 PM.

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#10 Greven79

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Posted 29 January 2015 - 06:00 AM

@ RenatoKolokoy:

I'm not so sure about your example of 8k vs. 50k. In a non-CLS, non-AP (armor penetration) fight, this shouldn't really happen. I had this a few times as well, (not really a monk/sorc matchup though) but it turned out that there was an explanation for that (unrefined gear, honing, PvP damage bonuses, guild skill. title, etc.).

 

The good thing about a single defense formula is that the same rules apply for everyone.

 

Crit. JT vs. frozen:  3584%

Crit. VS vs. frozen:  3200%

 

Crit. Flame Explosion: 3080%

Critical. Tempest: 2800%

 

Crit. Moonlight Dance: 2880% (can be doubled)

Crit. Shadow Explosion: 2140% (can be doubled)

Crit. Vulcan Arrow: 2612%

Crit. Sacrifice: 2530% (add. damage via HP)

 

Against knocked-down targets:

 

Guilotine Fist: 1560% * 2 = 3120%

Brutal Strike: 1300% * 1.3 * 2 = 3380%

Rage Strike w\o BT: 1140% * 1.3 * 2 = 2964%

Shield Cannon w\o BT: 1160% * 1.3 * 2 = 3016%

 

To sum it up: Similar starting value (physical skill effect) => similar potential damage.

 

That's why I first compare the physical skill effect and then test the damage agains low-level pre-AoV mobs first. They don't have a meaningful defense or damage reduction and PvP bonuses don't apply either, so it's a good starting point. Thereafter, I test it in a arranged duel. Here, you can check things like parry, dodge chances, as well as other things like aiming issues, speed, etc. But never make the mistake to use Colo as a reference! And as I've mentioned in a different thread already, I rarely if ever use random PvP encounters as an argument. Because then, you have to consider gear swap, unknown seedrune percentages and other things as well.

 

The main difference between tanks and non-tanks should be that the former focus on defense, whereas the others can focus on higher attack rates, higher damage or higher crit. chances. And this is partly the case. A BM f.e. would have to choose between Bear Form/Ymir or Grizzly Form, which then defines whether he plays a tank or DPS character. But there are some major issues:

 

High defense:

The rates are too high. A 55% vs. 75% defense f.e. results in a 80% damage difference. That's also the reason why armor penetration is so dangerous. And of course, this creates a high discrepancy between normal attacks and DoTs // heals. That's why I always suggested to bring this down to an average of 20~30% again.

 

High damage compared to hitpoints:

Higher defense rates become irrelevent against non-AP attacks eventually (tanks can achieve 90%+ defense, but there's a cap at 75%), but damage knows no cap. And if an attack deals 200k damage against certain PvE mobs, how could this be balanced against other players? So the damage-to-hitpoint ratio has to be altered drastically.

 

High vigor // cast speed:

An example: 50% vigor causes a Brutal Strike to have a cooldown of 10sec. So even if that BM does nothing in between two Brutal Strikes, he would still have a higher DPS than with a constant Rage Smash. And how is a Jupitel Thunder with 0.4sec casting time and a < 2sec cooldown supposed to be balanced towards a Lightning Bolt?

 

Broken skills:

Look at the damage of a Rage Strike without Battle Tactics. You see, even if you remove BT completely, a Warrior would still deal more damage than a Wizard, Soulmaker or Ranger. So how is this skill supposed to be balanced? And there are many other examples - at different scales of course.

 

Unbalanced stat bonuses:

Although it might sound cool, that classes get specific stat bonuses, the concept is highly flawed. Is the hit bonus of a Soulmaker as powerful as the ATK bonus of a Crecentia? And whereas a BM without Grizzly Form once had the same hitpoints & defense as a Rogue/Assassin or Ranger, that's not true anymore. But is a higher dodge or crit. a good compensation? So that's why I would like them to be removed and rather see a better skill balance instead.

 

So to sum it up:

Would a 'magical' armor solve the problem of a Battle Tactics? Would it solve the vigor issues I mentioned? Would it solve the overall high damage output of players or the extreme differences between 60% and 70% defense? - I don't think so. And that's why I said that the game doesn't really need it. Even games like Diablo, Torchlight, Titan Quest and others games struggled to find a 'balanced' concept. So let's address the apparent issues first and see how it works.

 

And Gravity as promised class balances over a year ago, but I doubt that this will ever happen (you could annoy p2w players who invested in broken knights) and I doubt they even have a proper concept (just look at the latest Rogue/Assassin fixes).


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#11 RenatoKolokoy

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Posted 29 January 2015 - 08:44 AM

I'm not so sure about your example of 8k vs. 50k. In a non-CLS, non-AP (armor penetration) fight, this shouldn't really happen. I had this a few times as well, (not really a monk/sorc matchup though) but it turned out that there was an explanation for that (unrefined gear, honing, PvP damage bonuses, guild skill. title, etc.).

 
Actually, I tested it with an arranged PvP, no switching of gears, only self buff, no Osi/Isis cards, no statue/food/potion buffs and same range of seeds. I only tested it on Monk because I assume Monks have the most defensive rate compare to other class. Both of us have +20 full set, though mine is mix of Cazar and Himmelmez and the other one have Full Cazar set. We tried to get the maximum damage that we can give to each other (with Crit and proc) and that's the damage value that we got. I don't have issues with other class when it comes to damage calc. Only for those who have huge defense rate which you already explained.
 
 

Would a 'magical' armor solve the problem of a Battle Tactics? Would it solve the vigor issues I mentioned? Would it solve the overall high damage output of players or the extreme differences between 60% and 70% defense? - I don't think so. And that's why I said that the game doesn't really need it. Even games like Diablo, Torchlight, Titan Quest and others games struggled to find a 'balanced' concept. So let's address the apparent issues first and see how it works.

 

I agree that there are outstanding issues on other skill classes. The idea of Magic defense is not only for Sorcs but for the whole Magic classes including Priest/SM. I'm sure that I can rid Priest (if I didn't get stunned) and same, they can kill us instantly using ROG. But that way does not really make sense to me. There should be a balancing factor when dealing with the same Magic Class.

 

When it comes to Defense calculation, it will only make the Magic class exposed to all class and tanks will be happy because they can't be easily killed because of their huge HP + Defense rate which a Magic cloth class doesn't have (Please don't suggest to make a VIT type Magic class if I want to have a 50-60k ish character).

 

oh man, I'm tired of waiting for the re-balance they promised a year ago.  :yawn:


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#12 HokaHoka

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Posted 29 January 2015 - 10:48 AM

 (Please don't suggest to make a VIT type Magic class if I want to have a 50-60k ish character).

 

oh man, I'm tired of waiting for the re-balance they promised a year ago.  :yawn:

 

 

There goes my intention to put Vit rune in all parts of my equipment.  :p_swt:

 

As for the burst damage, it's the yummy crit that counts:bash:  


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#13 Greven79

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 11:13 AM

I don't have issues with other class when it comes to damage calc. Only for those who have huge defense rate which you already explained.

 
Be also aware that monks deals twice as much damage, if you're already below 20% HP or in a rare case right after Heavy Tackle. (the monk should see an additional icon). But in most cases, neither one is crucial. If you're already below 20% HP, you would die anyways and if the monk had time to cast Heavy Tackle AND a has a G-Fist ready to use, it's not a real fight.
 

I agree that there are outstanding issues on other skill classes. The idea of Magic defense is not only for Sorcs but for the whole Magic classes including Priest/SM. I'm sure that I can rid Priest (if I didn't get stunned) and same, they can kill us instantly using ROG. But that way does not really make sense to me. There should be a balancing factor when dealing with the same Magic Class.
 
When it comes to Defense calculation, it will only make the Magic class exposed to all class and tanks will be happy because they can't be easily killed because of their huge HP + Defense rate which a Magic cloth class doesn't have (Please don't suggest to make a VIT type Magic class if I want to have a 50-60k ish character).
 
oh man, I'm tired of waiting for the re-balance they promised a year ago.  :yawn:

 

Let's assume they lower the DEF% to ~25%, reducing the damage accordingly. Let's also assume no skill would one-shot players:

 

Every class would have a chance to win, even if they uses the same defense formula. But if you separate the defenses, i.e. nerfing one class against a specific type, this might bring back all the bad things again (one-shots // unwinnable situations).

 

In Diablo 2, I hoarded multiple gear sets with different elemental resistances, just in case I would have to face a certain boss that uses this element. Switching gear made fights doable that were otherwise unwinnable. But 'impossible' situations aren't that great, right? So what was the emotional benefit behind different defense types? I didn't feel better because I had to discard my beloved gear set for a dedicated one and was frustrated when I got stucked due to missing percentages (oh.. all these memories!! Holy-Shock bosses that could kill you from far beyond your sight range).

 

And since tanks wouldn't benefit from a 10~15% defense difference that much anymore, if the average is quite low already, it would be 'easy' to compensate DPS classes with a slightly higher damage output instead. It should only negates the bonus for tanks, so no side would be strictly better. And such a scenario is possible.

 

But I wait for a this a long time now as well... even giving hints how I would do it. But the truth is: This hope will die with the game!

 

With full Eddga, but no other stuff. a Warrior would have a physical skill effect (damage before skills) of ~2,100pts... more than a Wizard, Sorcerer, Priest, Soulmaker, etc. and his Rage Strike has an equal or higher damage percentage compared to other 'ultimate' skills. So where is the justification for Battle Tactics at all? - Even without it, Warriors would still deal more damage than other classes. And this is not some random rant!

 

So just look how they struggle to downgrade duped cards or how they stick to broken seeds for over a year now! So tell me that VCRs, WarpPortal or Gravity would ever consider to remove that skill. Honestly? NO WAY!


Edited by Greven79, 30 January 2015 - 11:20 AM.

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#14 HokaHoka

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 11:40 AM

 With full Eddga, but no other stuff. a Warrior would have a physical skill effect (damage before skills) of ~2,100pts... more than a Wizard, Sorcerer, Priest, Soulmaker, etc. and his Rage Strike has an equal or higher damage percentage compared to other 'ultimate' skills. So where is the justification for Battle Tactics at all? - Even without it, Warriors would still deal more damage than other classes. And this is not some random rant!

 

So just look how they struggle to downgrade duped cards or how they stick to broken seeds for over a year now! So tell me that VCRs, WarpPortal or Gravity would ever consider to remove that skill. Honestly? NO WAY!

 

Peace  :p_laugh:


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