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Stealth in Colo


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#26 Kirhito

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Posted 04 March 2015 - 07:53 AM

hide should be able to use when "round begins" and when the players dies and resu.

the problem is the damages from si which are basically op.

Then that would be the same thing.
Hiding before the round starts is pretty much alright, but being able to rehide again is a no-no.
The damage is OP yes, thats why i wanted to get the being able to rehide while the round is still going status coz the x2 from hide generally boosts the OP damage much more you see.

Thats why im proposing a unending battle state whenever the round is going so if you pop out of hide its all straight up fights not rehiding and using Grimtooth over and over.
Assassins right now are only doing this and these guys think they are like Pros or something. I would like to see things if their "PvP Strategy" gets taken away.

Edited by Kirhito, 04 March 2015 - 07:58 AM.

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#27 SilentHero13

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Posted 04 March 2015 - 08:17 AM

Then that would be the same thing.
Hiding before the round starts is pretty much alright, but being able to rehide again is a no-no.
The damage is OP yes, thats why i wanted to get the being able to rehide while the round is still going status coz the x2 from hide generally boosts the OP damage much more you see.

Thats why im proposing a unending battle state whenever the round is going so if you pop out of hide its all straight up fights not rehiding and using Grimtooth over and over.
Assassins right now are only doing this and these guys think they are like Pros or something. I would like to see things if their "PvP Strategy" gets taken away.

 

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#28 Stratum

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Posted 04 March 2015 - 09:01 AM

Thats why im proposing a unending battle state whenever the round is going so if you pop out of hide its all straight up fights not rehiding and using Grimtooth over and over.
Assassins right now are only doing this and these guys think they are like Pros or something. I would like to see things if their "PvP Strategy" gets taken away.

 

Pls god yes.


Edited by Stratum, 04 March 2015 - 09:03 AM.

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#29 Kirhito

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Posted 07 April 2015 - 04:39 PM

i think it takes a miracle for them to actually respond or work on something thats should not be working.

oh well GG.

this game is going places, thanks for the concern GMs, CMs, Devs whatever else you guys are.

 

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#30 Exvee

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Posted 09 April 2015 - 07:50 PM

Let me get this straight... If I count 20 deaths in Colo and WoE map, 18 of them are from Assasins/Rogue. The problem is not re-hide alone, they can buff themselves and debuff enemies while remain Hiding, this is stupid. And I dunno what's wrong with the damage buff on hiding that I feel it's like x20 damage rather than x2. I'm okay if I'm on low HP and last hitted by them during LoTS era but now I'm on full HP and buffed then suddenly of nowhere just got a random stun/mark genocide and one shotted.... This includes WoE map as well...

 

I don't care whatever unbalanced class like Priest and Warrior for now, at least they announce the attack before they kill you and you can counter them even when you lose... but Assasin/Rogue is even more broken. Ranger is just not that matter when their skills are not deadly as thief classes


Edited by Exvee, 09 April 2015 - 07:51 PM.

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#31 kamuxo

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Posted 10 April 2015 - 07:48 AM

Let me get this straight... If I count 20 deaths in Colo and WoE map, 18 of them are from Assasins/Rogue. The problem is not re-hide alone, they can buff themselves and debuff enemies while remain Hiding, this is stupid. And I dunno what's wrong with the damage buff on hiding that I feel it's like x20 damage rather than x2. I'm okay if I'm on low HP and last hitted by them during LoTS era but now I'm on full HP and buffed then suddenly of nowhere just got a random stun/mark genocide and one shotted.... This includes WoE map as well...

 

I don't care whatever unbalanced class like Priest and Warrior for now, at least they announce the attack before they kill you and you can counter them even when you lose... but Assasin/Rogue is even more broken. Ranger is just not that matter when their skills are not deadly as thief classes

 

I play rogue since lots and i can say one thing, rogue damage in aov is pretty high, but cost much stats. First, rogue have high CD to chain your skill (smoke bomb 90s, dirty plan 120s, mark of death 120s) so we need change several stats to reduce that CD via vigor and maxing smoke bomb and dirty plan. Second, since lots our deadly combo ever was moonlight dance in hiding, before moonlight dance do 1500% damage, now is 1420%. Third, is very normal be one shooted now, isnt something that only thiefs class can do, and rogue only can defeat 1 target at the time (are 1vs1 focus), versus sin that can defeat 10 via hide+grimtooth.

 

I dont believe that rogues are broken, we are 1vs1 (we dont have deadly aoe like sin, priest, sword class, wizard, sorcerer), to get high vigor we need reduce stats via honing (vit to hp and we have SO LOW HP, str to PARRY and DAMAGE) becouse we have skills with high CD (we can not use ulti skill each 10s in begins or minus, like sin). If you can stun or knock down that rogue, you can run or better, kill him/her. Much players are in blame versus hiding buff x2 damage, but its the essence of rogue damage, is suppose to use to overkills (again, we have so low hp and def to obtain high damage, isnt like sword class that with current battle tactics have high hp, high def, high damage or inmunity buff+def buff via one click, all our skills are nerfed to have prerequisite of combo points to archieve max effect, versus skills not ulti but powerful without pre requisite like leap, shield boomerang, jupitel thunder, OP aoes of priests ...). The real problem with hide isnt hide buff, is grimtooth becouse you can kill more of 1 player with this (and in woe purposes, grimtooth in empe is very deadly) and rehide in colo. Other blame is inmunity buff, rogue can get it (consider 50% vigor) each 45s via smoke bomb lvl 6 or double inmunity buff each 1 min (via dirty plan), but sin can get it each 20s +50%def, with max CD reduction 75%, they can have permanent shadow armor buff (5s of inmunity 5s vulnerable) and rogues only each 23s and double inmunity buff each 30s via dirty plan, can you get it the difference ?. In colo, CD are nerfed so is a several disventage to rogues and is a pro to that rogues focus in stealth over kill someone since 0.

 

Im agree with a colosseum permanent state of battle for fix it rehide sin or ranger, but not remove hiding in colo becouse rogues use several skill too only to get smoke lvl 1 (4) and more if him/her max it (9) only to get hiding benefits. And about anormal 20x hiding ? i use hiding over time and never see that my hits do 20x, only the normal 2x damage. And about moonlight dancex4 via hiding+dirty plan, dirty plan cancel hiding in ymir state (so almost never you will be hitted for moonlight x4 for hide for a rogue in ymir, if him/her not have combo mastery buff activated).


Edited by kamuxo, 10 April 2015 - 07:56 AM.

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#32 Exvee

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Posted 11 April 2015 - 07:01 AM

Im agree with a colosseum permanent state of battle for fix it rehide sin or ranger, but not remove hiding in colo becouse rogues use several skill too only to get smoke lvl 1 (4) and more if him/her max it (9) only to get hiding benefits. And about anormal 20x hiding ? i use hiding over time and never see that my hits do 20x, only the normal 2x damage. And about moonlight dancex4 via hiding+dirty plan, dirty plan cancel hiding in ymir state (so almost never you will be hitted for moonlight x4 for hide for a rogue in ymir, if him/her not have combo mastery buff activated).

You missed the point that some skills are not canceling hiding(I state it about buff/debuff), make it worse combined with shadow armor and vigor. I believe that while Rogue kills less than Assasin and not always instant kill (you missed that it can crit too, that's the cause of instant kill) it's still suck when you actually see it (mark of genocide all of sudden and no one seen on screen)..

 

If you for some reason know the hiding scroll thing (never finish the quest and you can pick it infinitely), you will know that even non-thief class can benefit it. If you fight group in woe and they healed even after they use potions, there will be possible that a Priest/SM can heal them while remain Hiding as well making them can't be targeted unless you realize it and try to reveal them.

 

The Hiding change actually just get it more broken, it's just prevent some low level exploits farming while many skills give benefit on hidden state cos it's not canceled anymore... Probably if I stand corrected with my previous post, I gonna fix the word by "Die because of Hiding attacks"


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#33 Kirhito

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Posted 15 April 2015 - 08:18 AM

I play rogue since lots and i can say one thing, rogue damage in aov is pretty high, but cost much stats. First, rogue have high CD to chain your skill (smoke bomb 90s, dirty plan 120s, mark of death 120s) so we need change several stats to reduce that CD via vigor and maxing smoke bomb and dirty plan. Second, since lots our deadly combo ever was moonlight dance in hiding, before moonlight dance do 1500% damage, now is 1420%. Third, is very normal be one shooted now, isnt something that only thiefs class can do, and rogue only can defeat 1 target at the time (are 1vs1 focus), versus sin that can defeat 10 via hide+grimtooth.

I dont believe that rogues are broken, we are 1vs1 (we dont have deadly aoe like sin, priest, sword class, wizard, sorcerer), to get high vigor we need reduce stats via honing (vit to hp and we have SO LOW HP, str to PARRY and DAMAGE) becouse we have skills with high CD (we can not use ulti skill each 10s in begins or minus, like sin). If you can stun or knock down that rogue, you can run or better, kill him/her. Much players are in blame versus hiding buff x2 damage, but its the essence of rogue damage, is suppose to use to overkills (again, we have so low hp and def to obtain high damage, isnt like sword class that with current battle tactics have high hp, high def, high damage or inmunity buff+def buff via one click, all our skills are nerfed to have prerequisite of combo points to archieve max effect, versus skills not ulti but powerful without pre requisite like leap, shield boomerang, jupitel thunder, OP aoes of priests ...). The real problem with hide isnt hide buff, is grimtooth becouse you can kill more of 1 player with this (and in woe purposes, grimtooth in empe is very deadly) and rehide in colo. Other blame is inmunity buff, rogue can get it (consider 50% vigor) each 45s via smoke bomb lvl 6 or double inmunity buff each 1 min (via dirty plan), but sin can get it each 20s +50%def, with max CD reduction 75%, they can have permanent shadow armor buff (5s of inmunity 5s vulnerable) and rogues only each 23s and double inmunity buff each 30s via dirty plan, can you get it the difference ?. In colo, CD are nerfed so is a several disventage to rogues and is a pro to that rogues focus in stealth over kill someone since 0.

Im agree with a colosseum permanent state of battle for fix it rehide sin or ranger, but not remove hiding in colo becouse rogues use several skill too only to get smoke lvl 1 (4) and more if him/her max it (9) only to get hiding benefits. And about anormal 20x hiding ? i use hiding over time and never see that my hits do 20x, only the normal 2x damage. And about moonlight dancex4 via hiding+dirty plan, dirty plan cancel hiding in ymir state (so almost never you will be hitted for moonlight x4 for hide for a rogue in ymir, if him/her not have combo mastery buff activated).


Totally misses what im saying. Im not saying remove the hide from colo. As it stands right now every stealth class can rehide and they just have to wait for the Battle End state. As a rogue, rehiding in mid Battle is your specialty and i have nothing agaisnt that and only rogues have that skill. But if everyone can rehide, then what the use of that skill. It takes out your class specialty, specially sins move so fast as well so they can rehide again and again. I have colo on my sin like countless times and i never wanted the rehiding tactic to be a thing.
And if you are a non-stealther PvP tends to ger really boring and very cheap since hiders just grim/CI run away and rehide. Rinse and repeat until you get 1 shotted.
Like i said colo should have a perma battle state when the round starts, even if you use shadow armor battle state should still affect you.
Outside colo, stealth should have at least 30 seconds of Battle State so no one can rehide right away. Ive seen sins do this, grim shadow armor run rehide, do it again and again. They have too much advantages, as if invulnerability isnt enough but having the chance to rehide in mid battle is totally not ok.
Anyways, im talking like devs in this game actually does something right. What more to do than to break your own game more and more and promise people with fix. How long was that rebalance patch promised again? Oh right last year. Did they made class changes? Yep, just look at what we have right now if you can call that PvP i mean. Their only way to keep players interested is shower em with freebies and get em hooked so if they ran out they can buy KP to get it.
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#34 9632130515120055620

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Posted 20 April 2015 - 12:41 PM

Final rounds with stealth classes in colo = kill porings to get points and hope you don't get caught yourself, collapse on the one/two tanks in final round with guild skill and hope to get first. Boring and that's not PvP. Most sins in colo just hit out of hide and run away, it doesn't show any sort of good player skill.


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#35 kamuxo

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Posted 22 April 2015 - 07:17 AM

You missed the point that some skills are not canceling hiding(I state it about buff/debuff), make it worse combined with shadow armor and vigor. I believe that while Rogue kills less than Assasin and not always instant kill (you missed that it can crit too, that's the cause of instant kill) it's still suck when you actually see it (mark of genocide all of sudden and no one seen on screen)..

 

If you for some reason know the hiding scroll thing (never finish the quest and you can pick it infinitely), you will know that even non-thief class can benefit it. If you fight group in woe and they healed even after they use potions, there will be possible that a Priest/SM can heal them while remain Hiding as well making them can't be targeted unless you realize it and try to reveal them.

 

The Hiding change actually just get it more broken, it's just prevent some low level exploits farming while many skills give benefit on hidden state cos it's not canceled anymore... Probably if I stand corrected with my previous post, I gonna fix the word by "Die because of Hiding attacks"

 

note: mark of genocide (+10% crit) isnt the same that mark of death (+40% damage to rogue).
 
Thiefs can buff himself/herself in hide, but what it wrong with that ? thiefs do it before of use hide, rogues can use gangster paradise in hide but need CP to use it or combo mastery buff active and cannt debuff in hide (crescent moon need 1 CP, mark of death and guild skill cancel hide, dirty plan cancel with ymir), while sins can use grimtooth (but before i have been said that this skill is very OP with all, %HP [aberration since rogue must have hp recovery only in this faction, is the reason why they have shadow armor], slow debuff AoE, damage very clear of cross impact) and shadow armor (but if you are one shooting someone, its better use armor out of hide to not loose sec of inmunity that can protect of an ultimate skill damage). 
 
So, to reveal or search a hiding player, you only need use your map and use AoE to reveal it, swords and soulmakers use it every time, and hit her/him to that they cannt escape (combat mode), except for rogues (smoke bomb). This isnt ragnarok 1, we dont have skills to reveal hiding player instantly like ruwach (except sm), but we have mechanics to reveal it, AoE damage ever cancel hide (and a clue, before that hiding nerf , dirty plan have been cancel hide). Other thing that cancel hide is a buff item, you cannt use buff of food or potion without cancel hide, and i believe that priests are very busy in woe to heal a thief if they must be using AoE stun or healing tanks.
 
All skills that burst damage of skills out of balance ? becouse all classes, in this moment, have some skill that are broken or that can be combined to do powerful chains, so dont forget that priest class have the most obscene relation dot damage/debuff/vigor.I dont believe that 18/20 kills in woe are for sins+rogues (can be more sins alone), it isnt true, i remember saw more sword class that thiefs class in woe, and more sins that rogues, and i play woes each week. If you are in fire lines, is very obvius that you can die, sadly supports are the first target to all the classes  (heal power), next to knigth (shield boomerang).
 
So, to add why BT need to be fixed soon with high priority, is becouse in woe half of guilds are swordman only for the insane crits that can be IN AOE, and do that few players use other jobs (few rogues, few rangers, few wizards, few crescentia VS much BT swords, much PERMA STUN priests, much HIGH ASURA STRIKE monk, much GG GRIM sins, much OP HP bears, much HEAVY SUPPORT sm), and is very ankward that 10 players die for a overkill of 100k or more onyly for a stupid critical damage of a skill that can be reset itself and have LOWER damage modifier (you must be tank with high parry to survive that).
 

Totally misses what im saying. Im not saying remove the hide from colo. As it stands right now every stealth class can rehide and they just have to wait for the Battle End state. As a rogue, rehiding in mid Battle is your specialty and i have nothing agaisnt that and only rogues have that skill. But if everyone can rehide, then what the use of that skill. It takes out your class specialty, specially sins move so fast as well so they can rehide again and again. I have colo on my sin like countless times and i never wanted the rehiding tactic to be a thing.
And if you are a non-stealther PvP tends to ger really boring and very cheap since hiders just grim/CI run away and rehide. Rinse and repeat until you get 1 shotted.
Like i said colo should have a perma battle state when the round starts, even if you use shadow armor battle state should still affect you.
Outside colo, stealth should have at least 30 seconds of Battle State so no one can rehide right away. Ive seen sins do this, grim shadow armor run rehide, do it again and again. They have too much advantages, as if invulnerability isnt enough but having the chance to rehide in mid battle is totally not ok.
Anyways, im talking like devs in this game actually does something right. What more to do than to break your own game more and more and promise people with fix. How long was that rebalance patch promised again? Oh right last year. Did they made class changes? Yep, just look at what we have right now if you can call that PvP i mean. Their only way to keep players interested is shower em with freebies and get em hooked so if they ran out they can buy KP to get it.

 

About rehide in colo, i have been saying that isnt good, this rehide only must be avaliable in the begining of each round and after each death, and rogues can obtain it out of this conditions using smoke bomb (like ro2 lots). So, this must be fixed with the %dmg of grimtooth (becouse without rehide, you can wait to see a mob of players and BOOM! 10 kills, you will pass to the next round with that).

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