64 replies to this topic

[Ahya]

Single track minds... both of you could be so much better, proficient players. Wasted talent. 

 

It might look that way from outside, but those simple little things have so much reasons behind them. Even the most foolishly-looking choice might be wiser than what you think is best. Not everyone builds a character just for the glory of his own name. It's such a pity, actually. You could've been a so much better, proficient thinker. Wasted intellect.

Edited by Ahya, 17 May 2015 - 06:07 PM.

[Feuer]

You didn't get it. I am a proficient thinker, proficient enough to set this up perfectly.

The Talent is not being wasted by your choices or Kriz', it's being wasted because you're not being given a choice at all by the development team. 

[MonnaLise]

I wonder why 'vote kick' in CD is disabled.

[Ahya]

A choice was given, and I myself am proficient enough of a thinker to see it. There aren't any talents wasted on my side, the development team actually gave more room for us to play a bit more independently: something I voluntarily refused to take.

 

It's okay, there's no need for washing hands at all. It was very obvious as to whom you were directing your remarks. From what you were saying in those posts, the choices have to be given to us in order for us to be better and more proficient. The fact that we have a choice (something you denied) marks a flaw in your intellect, no matter how small it (the flaw) may be.

 

If there was someone who wanted to deprive us of the choices, it would be the people who claim the new Mana Shield as unbalanced. Your stance in such issue is very clearly implied as well.

[Feuer]

Actually, Kriz has very little in his choice of play style for his preferred class. While you may have more of a choice, when it comes down to the wire, it really is all damage or all mana shield for mages. In between states do not function well. That may classify it as a choice, but it does not classify as a choice in diversity. As everyone is applied to that same choice, with no variance. If the game was properly built, operating and designed, you could pick any variant of a class you enjoyed playing, and still be proficient combatants. As it stands, if you don't go for the min/max supported classes, you're going to get dumped on. Your choice of all damage or all tank is an illusion. I know some very great tactical minds from other games that have pulled out insane ability when they had the proper tools, to come to ROSE and just scratch their head wondering why it's so imba when it's over a decade old. 

[Ahya]

Actually, Kriz has very little in his choice of play style for his preferred class. While you may have more of a choice, when it comes down to the wire, it really is all damage or all mana shield for mages. In between states do not function well. That may classify it as a choice, but it does not classify as a choice in diversity. As everyone is applied to that same choice, with no variance. If the game was properly built, operating and designed, you could pick any variant of a class you enjoyed playing, and still be proficient combatants. As it stands, if you don't go for the min/max supported classes, you're going to get dumped on. Your choice of all damage or all tank is an illusion. I know some very great tactical minds from other games that have pulled out insane ability when they had the proper tools, to come to ROSE and just scratch their head wondering why it's so imba when it's over a decade old. 

 

He might have little in his choice of play style, that is something I'll leave up to you since I don't play bourg. However, you are terribly incorrect that it all only comes down to all damage or all mana shield. In between states do function well given the right hands on the keyboard and the right mind directing it. Sometimes even those neither all damage nor all manashield can function very well.

 

Performing well isn't always winning or sitting pretty at the top of the scoreboard in GA. Performing well is determined by one question: was the intended goal and function for this build fully met? I know you've played mage, and you still probably play it from time to time, but just because the number of mages who can see those choices being feasible doesn't mean that they aren't. You just happen to see mages as classified into only two types because you can't discern the differences, or they happen to be unable to see the other choices, or they just found the other choices unappealling.

[Feuer]

I do still play my mage periodically.

And you're correct that the question is "was the goal met".

 

And that's the discernible problem. If you go as a Sorc Type, you're not going to be meeting your goal. 

Sorc Types are a 'build over time' play style. Don't give them the mana shield, and see how effective their m-def stacks are and mutes without the shield. You will not be effective.

if you go Fire Type you are going to meet your goal.

Fire Types are a 'burst' play style. Don't give them a mana shield and they can still achieve their goal, which is to inflict as much trauma as possible.

If you go Lightning, you're going to fall short. 

Lightning Types are a 'DPS / Hit'n'Run' play style. Don't give them a mana shield and they're too vulnerable. Their speed may be great, but any 1 stun is enough to kill them as their tree's survival method [dodge] isn't going to allow them to survive. It's not effective without the mana shield.

Lastly, you have Ice Types.

Ice Types are 'CC' play styles. Built around controlling your enemy's by slowing them in as many methods as possible. Dodge downs, Move-speed downs, and Attack-Speed downs. Without mana shield, their combined skills may inflict their status', but if they're caught in any situation without their mana shields up, they will die as their tree defensive talent is the mana shield.

 

So there you have it.

Without the Mana shield, only 1 tree can still perform it's expected play style [Fire] because your only expectation is to die, but blow everything to hell before you do. The rest require time, that without the mana shield, doesn't exist for a Mage. Making the in between builds of Sorcery, Frost and Lightning ineffective for PvP from a base point. Understanding these will ultimately allow you to adjust. However if a Fire Type and a Sorcery Type of equal skill and funding are played, the Fire Type WILL meet it's role's expectations more frequently than a Sorcery Type simply because of the short comings of the role and the state of the game in terms of sub-class types being all about min/max potentials. In essence, combat is too fast for those 3 base points to be effective [without mana shield, which was my point] to consider playing when you know you have better options. Which makes my point still correct. You may have an illusion of 'choice' but when you understand the concept and things going on around you, you can tell that there is no 'choice'. It's either play the sub-classes that are function correctly and are essentially already pre-built, or risk being inferior to them.

 

And this is centered around PvP. PvM for Mages is a vastly different topic. 

Edited by Feuer, 18 May 2015 - 04:24 AM.

[Ahya]

I do still play my mage periodically.

And you're correct that the question is "was the goal met".

 

And that's the discernible problem. If you go as a Sorc Type, you're not going to be meeting your goal. 

Sorc Types are a 'build over time' play style. Don't give them the mana shield, and see how effective their m-def stacks are and mutes without the shield. You will not be effective.

if you go Fire Type you are going to meet your goal.

Fire Types are a 'burst' play style. Don't give them a mana shield and they can still achieve their goal, which is to inflict as much trauma as possible.

If you go Lightning, you're going to fall short. 

Lightning Types are a 'DPS / Hit'n'Run' play style. Don't give them a mana shield and they're too vulnerable. Their speed may be great, but any 1 stun is enough to kill them as their tree's survival method [dodge] isn't going to allow them to survive. It's not effective without the mana shield.

Lastly, you have Ice Types.

Ice Types are 'CC' play styles. Built around controlling your enemy's by slowing them in as many methods as possible. Dodge downs, Move-speed downs, and Attack-Speed downs. Without mana shield, their combined skills may inflict their status', but if they're caught in any situation without their mana shields up, they will die as their tree defensive talent is the mana shield.

 

So there you have it.

Without the Mana shield, only 1 tree can still perform it's expected play style [Fire] because your only expectation is to die, but blow everything to hell before you do. The rest require time, that without the mana shield, doesn't exist for a Mage. Making the in between builds of Sorcery, Frost and Lightning ineffective for PvP from a base point. Understanding these will ultimately allow you to adjust. However if a Fire Type and a Sorcery Type of equal skill and funding are played, the Fire Type WILL meet it's role's expectations more frequently than a Sorcery Type simply because of the short comings of the role and the state of the game in terms of sub-class types being all about min/max potentials. In essence, combat is too fast for those 3 base points to be effective [without mana shield, which was my point] to consider playing when you know you have better options. Which makes my point still correct. You may have an illusion of 'choice' but when you understand the concept and things going on around you, you can tell that there is no 'choice'. It's either play the sub-classes that are function correctly and are essentially already pre-built, or risk being inferior to them.

 

And this is centered around PvP. PvM for Mages is a vastly different topic. 

 

To be very honest, those are very obvious goals all meant for personal purposes. What I really meant was indirect and unorthodox goals. A wind + fire type will be playing a much wider role than merely damage and stun control. A wind + ice type won't only play a game of running, catching your enemies with your powerful slows, then running farther again to hit them from afar. It all comes down to the "why" behind the goals. A full wind + mana shield type mage might have built to be his clan's dummy in wars. A wind + ice type might have mage his mage to trap many enemies in wars, and even divert their attention. An ice + fire type might be looking to snipe the enemy's incoming champion who he sees as the most threat.

 

All mages choosing ONLY one element wlil have the option of either more range or more mana shield. A max range + fire build can be advantageous against gunners and scouts. A max range + wind can be used for hit and run at farther distances than normal. A max range + ice build may look to thin down a raider's life before coming into close combat. All those things they could do they are doing for a reason. Either they like to glorify their names in 1v1s, or they prefer to provide unique support in PvP GA, or they choose to cover a weakness in their clan for wars.

 

Without mana shield, only 1 tree can perform it's expected play style. That is true, but only to the extent of "expected play style," otherwise, the goals of people might be met depending on their own skill in choosing a build that would fit them. Mana shield isn't the only defense mechanism of the mage; dodge, and indirectly, mspd too, are considered. Most unorthodox? Using a wind + sorc tree to pin your enemies down as your defense system. Practically only an idiot would choose JUST ONE tree and then not get either range or mana shield. By getting one tree and taking either range or mana shield, a mage can still fulfill a role that would always make a diffference in either group fights or personal intentions.

 

Do you know why I got myself a mana shield, no matter how weak it may be? It's to buy time for me to throw an Aural, that is all. And by that, I've met a small goal that will help me in meeting all my other goals. A goal need not be play the expected play style.

[Feuer]

The very first sentence is where you deviate from my point. 

At a base standpoint, classes have skills with effects that determine their 'role'. 

 

Soon as you start mixing, you're creating a 'hybrid' role, one that you customized to yourself. 

True, mages have a great variety when it comes to creating those hybrids however that was not my point.

 

Move it away from the mage which is the worst example to any other class and the point starts to become very clear.

 

Sword Champions for example. Their pre-determined 'role' is accurate striking, with high skill damage and an advantage over other skill casting classes due to their mute.

That's the base fundamental of a Sword Champion.

 

Artisans.

They get a choice of Launcher or Guns. The only variant there is that one has more AoEs.

Both however are defined by the actual 'Artisan' tree. In the Artisan tree, there is no variants for combat. Regardless of the choice in weapon, you still pick the exact same skills with their pre-determined effects that end up defining the 'role' you play. Because venturing off that pre-determined class structure for an Artisan in combat is impossible. Their main role is Damage with mixed Hard CC. They have absolutely no weapon or stat dependent bonuses in that tree which makes all Artisan at a skill base point exactly the same.

 

Then you have classes that actually do have the potential for variation and hybrids, however all the effects are still pre-determined. This means if you consciously want to play a role, you need to pick a class that supports it. After that you need to make sure it actually is up to par with the rate of combat. Because even though an Artisan is centered around Damage and Hard CC's, it doesn't mean it can produce them at an effective enough rate for the current speed of combat to be effective. Essentially, nullifying you having a choice in variation internally on the class, but also limiting which class you can play while still maintaining the role you desire to play.

 

This biggest example is Support Clerics when you're wanting to play a group support role.

Clerics while having a significant variation to build potential, and one being support, it is still the only class capable of true group support. While a Knight may be good at taking damage, it only indirectly supports your team. And by indirectly I mean the taunt mechanic. You're not actively benefiting your team directly by focusing them and casting bubbles, wards or the like. The only one is protection. The rest are indirect. You can't heal anyone, you can't rally them from death, and you can't actively assist them by blocking attacks aimed at them as a 'cover' method. The only thing you can do is cast an effect to slightly reduce the damage one person takes [not the entire party], and indirectly attempt to taunt foes off.

Even though the Knight's description on the official site is to protect team members while maintaining the ability to take damage from stronger enemy's, they can't actually do it.

This means if you want to actively support foes directly* with heals, wards[if/when we get them], buffs or enchantments and resurrections, then you're required to play the Cleric.

 

We've had so many chances to actually fix the meta of this game to allow for choice of role and build to be actively incorporated into the classes, but it has ultimately failed at that base point. Once you take into account hybrids or customized builds of a few specific sub-classes then yes some are capable of role changing. That however is not the case for many classes, and some classes are bound to take specific skills. Like the mage is bound to mana shield, and the Support Role is bound to the Cleric. 

Edited by Feuer, 18 May 2015 - 07:32 AM.

[Ahya]

Stay in sight of just the mage as we did in these previous posts; I cannot agree with you. Mana shield has become a must only as per the norm; they have come to see it as needed in order to exist long enough to deliver their own goals when in fact, it isn't the only viable way for a mage's survival. Perhaps my opinions differ greatly from yours because the incredible time I have devoted to the mage lent me more possibilities than normal.

 

Move it away from the mage, however, you might be correct and I will concur with you. But then again, it was just the mage that we both were talking about, as you yourself know I won't argue about a class I don't play, except to provide my outside opinion of it.

[Feuer]

In terms of mage, can you show me a successful mage without mana shield or a fire build?

 

In general, I've made my point about the classes in general. 

[Ahya]

I'll be glad to show you once we happen to have the time for it, ingame.

 

And yes, you've made your point about the other classes.

Edited by Ahya, 18 May 2015 - 08:46 PM.

[carlosrose]

In terms of mage, can you show me a successful mage without mana shield or a fire build?

 

In general, I've made my point about the classes in general. 

 

Fire build is not a must have, there are plenty of mages  WITHOUT a fire build that just rape PvP games. In fact imo those without fire build tend to do better

[helloitsme]

Clerics can be deadly bcs not just a heal slave

Edited by helloitsme, 19 May 2015 - 03:22 AM.

[Feuer]

I didn't say it was a must. I said it's the only sub-class that can perform is pre-determined role without the aid of mana shield.