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With the rumors of BT nerf coming


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#26 Telovi

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Posted 30 May 2015 - 01:30 AM

I am amused too with how frequently I encounter Warriors who either don't know how to leap, or refuse to.
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#27 szk2

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Posted 30 May 2015 - 07:21 PM

the priest, before a waiting a leap, put HoT on herself. If BT doesn't proc then the war can never be alive again (by insane dot, perm stun)

 

Opss, no need perm stun, the victim die in 3 sec dot.

 

Opss I'm wrong. priest can put DoT 25 meter away, just before any leap.

 

Opss dot is instant cast, priest put everyone with DoT at that 25 meter

 

Opss we assign too much player to stop 1 priest.

 

Opss we just need bring more priest, who got more wins


Edited by szk2, 30 May 2015 - 07:27 PM.

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#28 Exvee

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Posted 30 May 2015 - 10:08 PM

I am amazed of how much you think that priest is balanced. 

 

 

I own Priest and I'm not amused with the character too much. At least not when I can be killed instantly by few ways so I'm basically glass cannon.
 

The problem is everyone invested everything that worth my motorcycle in the price to be overpowered in game... It doesn't matter Priest/Warrior/Assasins, those 3 classes are just shining when you got +20 everything, 3 slots costumes, VIP, etc... I made Priest + Assasin and they're not really exciting if you just play for fun and barely buy kafra shops to upgrade your character...

 

It also matter of developer that some retired players suggest auto-balance like Colo for WoE maps ever since WoE debuted and they still not bother to do that until now for almost 2 years...


Edited by Exvee, 30 May 2015 - 10:10 PM.

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#29 Telovi

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Posted 31 May 2015 - 01:20 AM

No, not bring more Priests to handles enemy Priests. Bring more other classes that have potential to deliver death with single or several hits, and have foolproof stunner cum range-closer.
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#30 donchan

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Posted 01 June 2015 - 07:31 AM

I am amused too with how frequently I encounter Warriors who either don't know how to leap, or refuse to.

 

Are you talking about in WoE?  Cause it's impossible to Battle Leap somebody when your game is running at 5-10 fps lol.  Most of refuse to leap in WoE because it's useless.


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#31 Greven79

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Posted 01 June 2015 - 11:06 AM

Because an assassin/rogues job is to kill out of hide and get lost (i am not saying it is not broken but imho is understandable because assassins would be then killed right after he shows himself), this is nowhere near a significant thing in WOE where as a priest can defend the fort/castle indefinitely with its unli chain stuns, lets not talk about 1 vs 100 here because that doesnt happen, but a priest being able to make anyone (maximum of 10 in any single moment) useless for 15 secs is the most broken thing.

 

I questioned why the priest stuns are considered OP, because a stun skill usually has to compete with damage skills. And in my opinion, the latter are currently much more broken.

 

So whenever a priest uses a Judex stun, just imagine this would have been an Assassin using a Grimtooth out of hide or a Knight using his Shield Boomerang.

 

That aside, please don't forget other classes classes usually have their own CC skills. Therefore, the ability for a 'chain-stun' must be compared with the effectiveness of two successive 3sec stuns. And this means that the priest will only have an advantage, if the targets live longer than 6sec.

 

Note: I am concerned about this part, because stating that the chain-stun of Priests is the most severe effect might cause two - IMO negative - effects.

  1. It would postpone fixes to damage dealing skills
  2. It leaves the impression that the Priest stun is only severe, because it can be chained up.
    That might cause that the stun won't be addressed by balance changes, only the recast ability.

This doesn't mean that Priests are 'fine'.

 

im not really sure why your post seemed to me that there is an issue on threat generation, and also I can assure you that my warrior has 5/5 aura armor 5/5 parry and 5/5 endure if that helps. Tanking is NOT the reason for my post, THREAT generation is not the reason for my post, the only reason I asked such a query is with the amount of people playing as knights and warriors using +50/80 int runes, do they have a PLAN to compensate those players in anyway? that is the main point of the post, nothing else. I agreed since the beginning that BT needs a rework/nerf of somesort because it is easily more broken than the one hit capability of the thief class. 

also if anyone thinks that i posted this because I have ALREADY invested in int runes, you are greatly mistaken, i posted this to gather info if it is still worth it at this stage of the game where a nerf rumors is flying around. but as greven already stated,

 

See, I am aware that Warriors or Knights invested in their runes. And a compensation is always a nice welcome. (I did the rune dailies as well). And if the time is right. I'll request it.

 

If you want my personal opinion: I don't see think the odds are good for this to happen:

 

1. Generous with goodies, defensive with compensations

 

Was there a compensation for the missing Noel boss in Forgotten Payon? So at least I doubt that there will be an explicit compensation for the runes. However, it's more likely that there will be other changes (f.e. new gear) and event bonuses at the same time.

 

2. Normal value loss for items

 

What did you do with the old runes? With your T2 Colo gear? ... with the red seeds? What will happen with all the honing material you used on your current gear when a new gear set is released?

 

So IMO, it's kind of a principle that items will be useless. And in my opinion, it's better to value the advantages you had, than the effort that is lost.

 

So you could think of it this way:

The actual compensation for the runes happens right now, giving Warriors & Knights an advantages over other classes. It makes the current tasks less time consuming (dailies, Jehoon) or more rewarding (f.e. by increasing the chance to win WoE).


Edited by Greven79, 11 June 2015 - 09:23 AM.

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#32 Greven79

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Posted 10 June 2015 - 10:50 AM

Because an assassin/rogues job is to kill out of hide and get lost (i am not saying it is not broken but imho is understandable because assassins would be then killed right after he shows himself), this is nowhere near a significant thing in WOE where as a priest can defend the fort/castle indefinitely with its unli chain stuns, lets not talk about 1 vs 100 here because that doesnt happen, but a priest being able to make anyone (maximum of 10 in any single moment) useless for 15 secs is the most broken thing.

 

I forgot to comment the part now highlighted in blue. In my opinion, it's simply not true.

 

Let's start with a fight between a tank and a ranger//mage first.

 

The tank will typically have more defense and/or more hitpoints. All the following statements work with either bonus, but let's stick solely to an increased hitpoint total for simplicity.

 

The ranger//mage doesn't have such a HP bonus, but at least he has a ranged attack. Now even if they would both deal the same amount of damage per strike, it can still be fair, if the ranger//mage can use his advantage to compensate the one of the tank.

 

Example - tank vs. ranger//mage:

Let's say the tank starts with 50k HP, the mage with 35k HP.  If both deal 5k damage per hit, the mage has to make sure that he hits three times from a safe distance... either right away at the start of the fight or by using a control effect (slow, stun, freeze, etc.) in between to restore the distance towards his foe.

 

If done correctly, neither side has an advantage. So both bonuses would be justified.

If the ranger//mage would be able to kite the tank or can one-shot him from afar however, it's an unfair fight. And it's the same, if the tank would be fast enough to stay in melee range easily or if he has it's own ranged attack.

 

The assassin:

An assassin shares the disadvantages of the tank => being a melee fighter, but he doesn't have the same hitpoint advantage. So what he needs is his very own advantage: Stealth!

 

Now stealth actually prevents that the ranger//mage can bring his range advantage to full potential. He can't attack the hidden assassin from afar. Instead, the assassin get's the "free" initial strike.

 

Example - assassin vs. ranger//mage:

The assasin starts with 40k HP, the ranger//mage with the same 35k HP. Both do the same 5k damage per strike. But since the Assassin can strike first, he can damage his opponent before the fight really starts. Thereafter, the mage would have to use his control effect to restore the distance. That will then give him the opportunity to pay the assassin back in kind for the initial damage.

 

Once again, this is only fair, if the assassin doesn't deal too much damage out of hide and if the mage can still use his range advantage throughout the fight to compensate the loss of life.

 

Example - assassin vs. tank:

The assassin also gets the first attack and this might already be enough to negate the hitpoint advantage of the tank. Thereafter, both classes might stay in melee range as they both share the same range disadvanteages. If the initial damage wasn't enough, the assassin just needs some control effects as well to make it a close fight.

 

To sum it up:

The assassin got his stealth to either compensate the lack of a ranged attack or to negate the additional hitpoint bonus of other non-stealth melee classes.

 

But there's no reason, why he should be able to one-shot other classes.

 

In other words, in an ideal scenario any class - including the assassin - would have the same 50:50 chance to lose a fight against any other class.

 

Flavor aspects:

IF you want to add some flavor where assassins are the silent killers, the balance aspect still has to be the same, just seen on a larger scale,

  • This means that an assassin CAN kill others, if it would be more demanding than it is for other classes. I.E. if he is weaker than other and has to wait longer between two fights. A good example would be the Mark of Death or the guild skills that grant a huge benefit, but have a high cooldown as well. Another example is the auto-crit. G-Fist (60sec cooldown). But surprisingly, assassins got the shortest skill cooldowns and fastest animations (f.e. Shadow Explosion, Shadow Armor, etc.).
     
  • Another way would be to implement a "stone-paper-scissor" mechanic:
    Assassins kill mages => mages kill tanks => tanks kill // outlve assassins => ...

That's dangeous, if certain classes are underrepresented. And it's typically not what Assassins want. They would prefer to kill the tanks, not caring that much about how the low-HP mages should then kill them in return, if they use stealth, strike first are faster and would prefer to have a higher damage output as well.

 

But of course, this irrelevant, if a game has major balance issues. And that's the state right now. Be it an unfair penetration, a ridiculous Battle Tactics, insane DoT damages, seeds, pvp-rune, more and more speed bonuses, stupidly high vigor & cast speed rates, etc. etc.

 

IMO, only the brokenness of other classes might justify the damage out of an assassin has right now.

 

So in that regarn, my questions are:

  • Is it really necessary to get these speed bonuses?
  • Weren't the mounts good enough that players are now faster if they don't use them?
  • Do Assassins & Rogues really need the additional speed, especially in hide?
  • Why should they be able to chase enemies and other classes not?
  • Wouldn't such an inability help to assure balance?
     
  • Would it really be that hard to wait 20sec for the ultimate to cool down?
     
  • Why shouldn't you have to stand still if you attack from afar? Isn't that a balancing mechanism?

 


Edited by Greven79, 11 June 2015 - 09:38 AM.

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#33 DPSwannabe

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Posted 14 June 2015 - 10:21 AM

  • first off, i want to say this as a disclaimer, right now imho, the most broken class/skills in the game are: priests, battle tactics and 1hit killers
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  • Is it really necessary to get these speed bonuses?

I feel that the devs wanted the assassin to be this fast soft guy. assassin class is defined by the name itself, superb ability to assassinate a target and being able to get out.

  • Weren't the mounts good enough that players are now faster if they don't use them?
  •  Woe doesn't allow these mounts, more than 50% of the players are focused in WoE
  •  
  • Do Assassins & Rogues really need the additional speed, especially in hide?
  •  Only assassins have the additional speed, therefore adding more structure to the first answer about the dev's vision for this class. 
  •  
  • Why should they be able to chase enemies and other classes not?
  •  because other classes has other means of locking down an enemy or escaping them, If you notice, most melee classes has 2 stuns or longer duration like monks, only thief class has 1 trading the other for stealth. Other roles like for certain classes like sorcs and sm etc, you cant have them all. these guys  are just built to die.  There are very few games out there that allow a single class to have OP heal with killing potential. so that being said, SM's role is to cast it's powerful cure, the  person it is curing is the  one who should  take care of the sm, but the SM in its current state is too soft or just built wrong by players. Sorcs are just a bit in the middle, heal your teammates and contribute using their range and cast that nasty DoT
  •  
  • Wouldn't such an inability help to assure balance?
     It would but it is not the best way if balance is the goal.
  •  
  • Would it really be that hard to wait 20sec for the ultimate to cool down?
     Im not sure what skill you are referring to but tell that to judex
  •  
  • Why shouldn't you have to stand still if you attack from afar? Isn't that a balancing mechanism?
  •  perfectly agree with you on this one

with everything said, we both agree in the fact that there are a lot of balance issues with the game. One shotting a tank should never happen unless the tank is built to be a killer.

I have no idea how the warrior inquiry turned into such a class balance thread but since it is here now, imo, there should be roles in the game like lots, Assassins kill mages => mages kill tanks => tanks kill // outlve assassins => then someone saying prz is not OP because it could die easily is just too ridiculous. its like saying if there was a class with 1k HP but it deals 200k dmg is balanced. Or saying a tank class that has 1m hp but deals 100 dmg is balanced too. There are a lot of ways the devs can push thru that and the only way to do it is to nerf those at the top and rework those at the bottom, somewhere in that road, a middle ground will be achieved.


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#34 Pavelmimimi

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Posted 14 June 2015 - 02:26 PM

 

  • first off, i want to say this as a disclaimer, right now imho, the most broken class/skills in the game are: priests, battle tactics and 1hit killers

How this is related to BT nerf thread?

 

How all that WoE-Mages-Assassins-Rogues wall of text related to BT nerf? I don't really know how to take this guy seriously, if you keep posting offtopic in your own topic

 

EDIT: I am not trying to be rude and make a personal attack, but who, if not topicstarter, should keep the topic related to its' heading?


Edited by Pavelmimimi, 14 June 2015 - 02:53 PM.

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#35 Greven79

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Posted 15 June 2015 - 03:32 AM

How this is related to BT nerf thread?

 

How all that WoE-Mages-Assassins-Rogues wall of text related to BT nerf? I don't really know how to take this guy seriously, if you keep posting offtopic in your own topic

 

EDIT: I am not trying to be rude and make a personal attack, but who, if not topicstarter, should keep the topic related to its' heading?

 

I'm sorry that I my answer wasn't obvious enough that you could see the link towards a Battle Tactics nerf. It was a generalized approach and I know that this requires you to read between the lines to extrapolate the necessary statements. I tried to show that no class should be able to one-shot and that specific advantages like hiding, speed, range, extra crit-damage only exist to balance out other advantages.

 

In other words, a hide is IMO used either to negate the range advantages (first strike & kiting capabilities) or the survivability advantages (HP, defense, etc.), not to one-shot opponents. If you apply this statement to Battle Tactics, you'd have to find the advantages it ought to negate. And this then helps you to argue about how to balance Battle Tactics. Better now?

 

Because if an assassin shouldn't be able to oneshot other classes (f.e. by using the current x2 damage bonus out of hide, plus penetration), but should only deal enough extra damage to negate range // HP drawbacks, it should be even more obvious that tanky melee classes shouldn't be able to one-shot either. And to look at the same aspect from the other side. The concept I stated helps to judge, what benefits other classes would have to have (or are allowed to keep) to negate a 100~120% crit. damage bonus of Battle Tactics.


Edited by Greven79, 15 June 2015 - 03:50 AM.

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#36 DPSwannabe

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Posted 15 June 2015 - 07:16 AM

How this is related to BT nerf thread?

 

How all that WoE-Mages-Assassins-Rogues wall of text related to BT nerf? I don't really know how to take this guy seriously, if you keep posting offtopic in your own topic

 

EDIT: I am not trying to be rude and make a personal attack, but who, if not topicstarter, should keep the topic related to its' heading?

 

I'm sorry but I am merely replying to people who connected other nerfs that should occur as well. If you read from the start, I also stated " is there any logical reason why continue rolling a swordsman?" this opens the door for other classes/skills to be in topic because a nerf in BT should be in the same update where other OP class/skills should be nerfed as well. There is no logic in discussing BT nerf alone if it will not be compared how it benefits the general balance of the game. In short, while the title states rumors of bt nerf, my opening post allowed the topic to be a bit broader. I do not see how this negatively affects the community, if people do not want to read and speakout their respective opinions then the forums is not the right place for them.

To anyone who gets annoyed by how I speak out myself, forgive me for english is not my main language. What matters is how much knowledge and info we get in each thread. VCRs are not there to have only their own personal opinions to be thrown to the devs but the whole community's opinion matters.


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#37 SolM77186

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Posted 15 June 2015 - 08:17 AM

First of all, every class is broken in its own way, however i agree on the fact that some classes are more over powered such as the knight, priest, monk and assassin. in order to talk about the main subject, i'm against battle tactic such as everyone here i suppose, but telling them "you shan't get anything as a compensation" is not fair:

 

First of all, if you give someone an Over-Powered skill with strong stats, sorry for being rude but the one whom won't chose to get it is a dumb. you can hide behind the fact that you want to play with fair skills or whatever, the thing is if you want to be strong in WOE or in PVP/PVE then you will have to get that skill therefore you will invest in these stats (INT for battle tactc), So the ones whom are not playing knight haven't any right to say "you should not get a compensation" cause it sounds like you say "you wanted to be Over powered such as everyone ? then you will get punished for being willing to be over powered".

 

that's not knights' fault but devs' fault so stop blaming players for chosing an Over-powered way but blame the devs whom made that. If there was not an Over-powered BT then there would not be any Over powered BT knight.

 

So instead of blaming knight, we should try to look for a compensation which will make Knights happy without bringing any inconveniences towards the other classes, not any advantages towards knights/warrior.

 

 


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#38 DPSwannabe

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Posted 15 June 2015 - 12:29 PM

^^ now it doesn't get much truer than that!

Int is an unorthodox Stat for the class, there must be someway around it. Something that will compensate the loss without gaining an undue advantage.
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#39 Pavelmimimi

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Posted 15 June 2015 - 02:21 PM

The only ways to compensate loss, wisely, would be

a)giving full reset to players once again, but it will only happen if every single class will be reworked, like, mages will start using something else aside of fireball, us using BT etc.

b)bringing untradeable rune removers via mail(best way), or giving an event for time-limited rune removers. But I can't see this happening in case when every other class will not drop some kind of mandatory stat like swords and int

 

BT playstyle had its' unique benefits, well, now it will have some really unique consqeuences. Let the RR AH Hunt begin


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#40 shuve

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Posted 15 June 2015 - 04:55 PM

If the BT ever nerfed the only class need compensation is warrior.

 


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#41 Pavelmimimi

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Posted 15 June 2015 - 05:40 PM

If the BT ever nerfed the only class need compensation is warrior.

 

As if knights never maxed out INT as well. Ever heard of other swordman classes and their one shot capabilities?


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#42 shuve

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Posted 15 June 2015 - 06:33 PM

As if knights never maxed out INT as well. Ever heard of other swordman classes and their one shot capabilities?

 

knock knock.... 2 gold rune slot??


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#43 Pavelmimimi

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Posted 15 June 2015 - 07:27 PM

knock knock.... 2 gold rune slot??

 

English, please.


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#44 shuve

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Posted 15 June 2015 - 07:39 PM

English, please.

 

Really??

Nerf battle tactic with the same formula apply for knight and warrior

on the knight side. 1 weapon and 1 off hand weapon ( 2 gold rune)

on the warrior side. 1 weapon ( 1 gold rune)

 

need further explanation?


Edited by shuve, 15 June 2015 - 07:39 PM.

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#45 Pavelmimimi

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Posted 15 June 2015 - 08:34 PM

Nah, I completely got your point and smiling at that "compensation" of yours.

 


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#46 7843140731162112220

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Posted 15 June 2015 - 08:37 PM

Still your argument is invalid, its like you saying that all knight going for full str, not even 1 int rune, so they dont need any compensation,eg rune remover??


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#47 Pavelmimimi

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Posted 15 June 2015 - 09:32 PM

Still your argument is invalid, its like you saying that all knight going for full str, not even 1 int rune, so they dont need any compensation,eg rune remover??

 

I WAS saying and stating that Warrior is not the only one will be affected by BT nerf. Do you even read?

 

Furthermore, I was stating that Warrior, Knight,Swordman, BT and everything else is not the single thing that will be affected by fix. Lots of stuff will be fixed, and I tend to believe, that tanking meta might be changed a bit(making dodge more of a tanking stat for example, and therefore convincing tanks to get some AGI, not just STR-VIT), or WIS becoming a real thing with SP cost revamp(so people would get a bit more WIS, by runes as well).

And this is where Rune Removers might be provided(via mail or event, as I mentioned) to everyone.

Because otherwise doing such a huge effort for players and breaking AH prices on rune removers... Well, I don't mind, but it won't happen just in favor of a class(or two).


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#48 7843140731162112220

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Posted 15 June 2015 - 09:41 PM

I WAS saying and stating that Warrior is not the only one will be affected by BT nerf. Do you even read?

 

LOL my comment not pointing to you, its for shuve  :heh:

my bad because not quoting it like you did on mine


Edited by 7843140731162112220, 15 June 2015 - 09:42 PM.

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#49 yuji21

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Posted 16 June 2015 - 12:48 AM

hmm i think what warriors and knights needs after BT nerfing is...

 

full removal of runes currently inserted on gears... something like a cosumable that removes all runes but will be intacted in inventory...

 

secondly... rune excahnger.. if we got like +50 int rune and we could convert it to +50 str or agi... 

 

lastly... reset skills and stat.. for experements on new builds... =V

 

that way.. it will be fair for warriors and knights who inveseted on int runes

 

also... aditional rune slots for gswords @_@" if thats even posbile (=_ =")


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#50 Shinyusuke

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Posted 16 June 2015 - 01:17 AM

hmm i think what warriors and knights needs after BT nerfing is...

 

full removal of runes currently inserted on gears... something like a cosumable that removes all runes but will be intacted in inventory...

Agree

secondly... rune excahnger.. if we got like +50 int rune and we could convert it to +50 str or agi... 

Agree

lastly... reset skills and stat.. for experements on new builds... =V

Agree

that way.. it will be fair for warriors and knights who inveseted on int runes

correction: would be fair for war and knight that were "forced" to chose int built to not be useless, since INT ones can do all from tanking to dpsing

if a Ferrari and a FIAT 500 would have the same cost no one would buy the 500!

also... aditional rune slots for gswords @_@" if thats even posbile (=_ =")

Nooope just give us Knights the same number of runeslot on our weapon and delete the ones on our shields and ofcourse do it also for all the classes that have an offhand

 


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