I made it Off Topic
Posted 17 July 2015 - 07:16 AM
I was thinking. I think it would be cool if all hard dungeons were changed to the point where everyone gets the same HP/Attack Power etc. So everyone is forced to make full raids and dungeon parties. That way no one would be OP and, in my opinion, would make raiding and dungeons fun. I miss needing to make a full to get through one dungeon. 
Just a suggestion, I don't know if everyone agrees with me.
Too Legit To Quit
Posted 17 July 2015 - 10:23 AM
I guess this is not the right reason the dungeons are soloed and your suggestion request a work that is equal to the one needed to rebalance the new content according to the old one.
Hard dungeons and raids are meant to be done at lv50 so it's normal to not need a full party at lv 70-85 (ML20-ML35), but in this game it's normal also at ML1 and this is the big mistake!!!
Now immagine if you downscale all the ML gears in a way that ML1 are just a bit better than Bapho gears (since some classes need bapho gears to complete the ml1 test), and so on up to Osiris gears (chaos gears), now say me would you be able to solo any raid or any hard dungeon? Maybe with the new (dowscaled) ML40 gears but they would be 40 levels upper
Anyway this is what i think but seems devs don't like my ideas 
Edited by Shinyusuke, 17 July 2015 - 10:25 AM.
Amateur Blogger
Posted 17 July 2015 - 02:29 PM
Amateur Blogger
Posted 18 July 2015 - 12:34 PM
Too Legit To Quit
Posted 20 July 2015 - 10:00 AM
Just a suggestion, I don't know if everyone agrees with me.
I bet most players would appreciate to get the old raids back. But it's quite difficult to achieve.
Ideas:
Method 1 - downgrade players:
This idea shares the same issues as Colo. The raid dungeons were developed pre-AoV (pre-ML) and are based not just on the old equipments & stats, but also on the old formulas (HP, defense, etc.).
That means it takes more than nerfing the attack power or asssuming certain player stats. You'd also have to remove the class-based stat benefits (f.e. monk = 2 Def / Vit) AND the formulas.
Method 2 - upgrade monsters:
Usually by adding extra dungeon modes or difficulty levels (f.e. 'normal', 'hard', 'expert' and 'insane'). This idea shares the same issues players have with FP bosses: Classes are now vastly broken, with a few dominating and others being rather useless.
F.e. if you have a team with several warriors & knights, killing Eddga might be quite easy, especially if you add broken pets at max. vigor rate, perfect seeds (incl. offhand), powerful hones and max. refinement as well. But a second team without all this isn't capable to defeat that boss at all.
Another problem is that classes became too strong that it's now almost impossible to develop bosses that are reasonable and challenging at the same time. If 45k damage is outhealed within a sec or two, but 50k damage deadly enough to kill a character, there is no way to have a good fight.
Analysis:
Conclusion:
IMO, the complete AoV era is defined by general lack of a concept, a kind of resignation later on, by some band-aid fixes and last ditch efforts to keep players in this game despite all that. In other words: To me, it seems that Gravity gave up on the game. (maybe WP didn't).
Sure, they'll come up with a new content and they'll merge the remaining servers to delay the inevitable, but that seems to be more contract driven than based on interest. Because most of the apparent balancing issues can be solved pretty easily, just by changing a few numbers, skills and formulas. And there's no way they are too busy or don't have the money to change a value or formula.
All it takes is to have at least a rudimentary concept and to accept that balance isn't achieved but aspired.
So no matter if you like existing raid dungeons would get fixed by nerfing players, buffing monsters or if you prefer cool new dungeons, you won't get around having a concept first.
Edited by Greven79, 20 July 2015 - 10:08 AM.
Amateur Blogger
Posted 21 July 2015 - 12:44 AM
Too Legit To Quit
Posted 27 July 2015 - 10:25 AM
They won't touch the formulas and skills in a way that will make players quit. They need to be sure, that players who want a balance game are not saying it because of grief or personal biases.
[...]
As stated, Gravity is juggling resources and community on both hands currently.
When players quit, they rarely state their reasons. So it's always hard to guess. But players rarely quit due to a change that didn't fix all the unsolved problems. They do, if changes are believed to make things worse or if an stated issue isn't solved at all.
So doing nothing is probably much worse for a business than to actually change stuff.
And the negative outcomes are easily avoided. All it takes is a dedication to a constant improvement and a proper plan. The existence of test server(s) and voluntary testers (VCRs) reduce the likelyness of unwanted results even further. Should a change create new or unforseen issues, a frequent update policy still assures that it doesn't stay broken for long.
_____
In my previous comment, I didn't concentrate on the actual changes. Instead, my intention was to highlight the fact that once a proper concept exists, changes (even the most significant ones) are remarkably easy to implement.
An example:
Gravity could lower the bind rune stat bonuses from 10/20/50/80 to 10/15/20/25. How long does it take to change four values?
Surely not a gamebreaking, but remarkably easy to implement for what it would achieve.
To introduce VIT bind runes, to lower the CLS rune bonuses from 5//3% to 3//2%, to alter PvP honing and to nerf blueseeds to a 1:1 ratio (max. +50) wouldn't be resource-consuming either. Small, but effective.
And like I said, it works for more significant things as well:
F.e. all it takes to lower the impact of vigor would be to reduce the current (potential) max. rate from 200% to 50%... It's a single, simple value within the formula!
And to put it to the extremes: It would also be easy to lower the end-game defense rate by 25%. At worst, that would result in twice the damage taken (75% => 50%). To compensate, the player's hitpoints could be doubled (easy if you alter the amount a player gets per level), the damage output could be halved (probably more cumbersome to adjust monsters & rage counters as well)... or a mixture of both strategies be chosen.
Either way, such a formula change would lower the inbalances of armor-bypassing DoTs, heals and penetration alltogether.
And with a proper plan, even the skill inbalances are easy to solve. In most cases, althering the primary skill variables (damage, cooldown, etc.) is already more than enough to fix them.
Btw: That's the reason why I always stated that the devs & VCRs should first concentrate to make classes equal (i.e. equally powerful)... because that's the tricky part. Class diversity would then have been insignificantly easy to add.
Last but not least - to state the obvoius: Even if doing nothing results in a continuous loss of players, it's still a predictable decline with calculable returns. So if a company is ok with that, it's the least stressful way to let things come to an end. That's the reason why I don't blame Gravity at all.
Amateur Blogger
Posted 28 July 2015 - 10:51 AM
Amateur Blogger
Posted 29 July 2015 - 12:03 AM
Edited by Telovi, 29 July 2015 - 12:04 AM.
Too Legit To Quit
Posted 29 July 2015 - 02:34 AM
They are currently on the quest issues. Let me know the exact date when the game was free of bug so that I have a time to dial on my soon to be finished time machine.
Say me a date when in the world there is no war...
the question is not when some utopy will happen but when it was better than now i guess you can easily answer from yourself.
Amateur Blogger
Posted 29 July 2015 - 03:55 AM
Amateur Blogger
Posted 29 July 2015 - 08:12 AM
When players quit, they rarely state their reasons. So it's always hard to guess.
As a long LONG time player who is on verge of quitting let me tell you one persons reason. Last week I tried to patch the game like always. For the first time in two years it didn't work. I tried and tried and gave up...went to bed. The next day I cleared my cache and all that and tried again. No luck. So I decided to re-install the game. I got a notice that said my account was suspended. I thought that was odd, so I filed a ticket. I also PM'd Njor. Both he and whoever answered the ticket checked...my account was not and has never been suspended. Upon further investigation a lot of people across gravity games are having this same issue. Now you would think that this would be sort of a big problem in need of a rapid solution...especially when your player base is dwindling. But apparently it's not. It's been over a week and no fix. So I can't play.
The utter lack of regard for players is appalling. Yes I did have good communication with the problem. But talking doesn't fix it. Talking never seems to fix anything. Reporting bugs doesn't do much.
Quite often we are treated like an inconvenience rather than the thing that keeps a game going. It's almost as if they just flat out don't care at all about the players, the game, the future of both, etc. I want to believe they do, but actions speak.
In the almost 9 days I haven't been able to play I have found a new game to play. It is comparable to RO2. I am picky when it comes to the look and style of an MMO...but this game has charm, very low RNG, virtually no grinding unless you flat out ignore quests which is hard to do. They have in game staff who are visible and keeps things under control. And here is the best part...I came across a bug and reported it...would you believe they fixed it almost instantly. INSTANTLY. They actually thanked me for finding it. No one questioned me or made me sound like I was crazy or a liar for pointing it out.
If you go to the forums about 98% of the sizable player base is happy. HAPPY! When you are forced to go away from this game and play another...you really realize the state of this one. It's been like a toothache. You learn to live with the dull pain, but when you get the tooth pulled you realize how much it was making you miserable.
So there ya go, one persons reasons.
On topic I don't think that would help much. As Telovi pointed out it's often the players themselves people want to avoid. I think there should be some rewards for endless hours of grinding yourself up to a high level and one of those should be freedom to choose how you want to do old dungeons...in party or solo.
Too Legit To Quit
Posted 29 July 2015 - 08:23 AM
As a long LONG time player who is on verge of quitting let me tell you one persons reason. Last week I tried to patch the game like always. For the first time in two years it didn't work. I tried and tried and gave up...went to bed. The next day I cleared my cache and all that and tried again. No luck. So I decided to re-install the game. I got a notice that said my account was suspended. I thought that was odd, so I filed a ticket. I also PM'd Njor. Both he and whoever answered the ticket checked...my account was not and has never been suspended. Upon further investigation a lot of people across gravity games are having this same issue. Now you would think that this would be sort of a big problem in need of a rapid solution...especially when your player base is dwindling. But apparently it's not. It's been over a week and no fix. So I can't play.
The issue you mention is that you can't "login" from the Download button, but if you login from a different page and then click the button, the download starts normally.
Too Legit To Quit
Posted 30 July 2015 - 11:01 AM
You can't say for certain that they are doing nothing and bleeding the game out to dead, unless you actually work for Gravity. Ignoring your ideas isn't a sign.
Of course there's a difference beween 'doing nothing' and 'avoiding necessary steps'. To stay fair, using the latter variant might have been more adequate. Gravity released some new stuff (although they relied on pre-implemented maps as well). However, they've also proven good at ignoring imminent issues - especially anything not related to design.
During LotS, they chose to ignore the pet issues although Colo was surely a major selling argument. They've never fixed Ratmaster, Maya or the Einherjar although these bosses made players quit. So even back then, they must have been juggling with resources and community or being overloaded with work that there wasn't any time left to alter a few variables (HP, damage or trigger conditions).
They didn't really intent to keep players in the game after the introduction of AoV either. Important fixes were delayed. Instead, we got sfuff like a screen shake, a map-zoom and a grey-screen. And the honing system let to a rollback.
But like I said, most fixes would be incredibly easy.
Dark Whisper caused battles over grinding spots and Forgotten Payon has no safe paths, So how long would it have taken to relocate a few monsters? Players complain about the mindless and endless grinding. How long would it take to increase the rewards for daily quests, from bosses. etc., just to add another option? Don't other MMOs do exactly that? And there are countless more examples of how to improve the game experience with minimal effort.
And to get back to the bind runes:
Despite existing one-shot issues and the fact that players didn't seem to enjoy the idea of +20 runes (see Rune +7 New Craft for Artisan from May 2014), Gravity chose to top it all and implement a +80 version. And IMO, it's no surprise that they've 'missed' the defensive-oriented VIT runes. I bet that helped alot.
And there's another aspect - priority:
See, I don't care, if a new content would reuse old stuff like the Cursed Ghost Ship (as some kind of Malangdo) or if I'd have to fight my way through another Izlude Cave (the other way from exit to entrance) just to end up in another Sandarman Fortress. And I'd be willing to fight an army of Fennec, spiders,etc., if they invest the saved development time into balance fixes. Because it's still better than facing new monsters & bosses while things are still broken.
If those above are the ones you'd sent to them, then well, little wonder about their lack of response. Too much "lower". Not really how they like their coffee.
As a VCR, I didn't suggest these kind of things and in my opinion, it's not the purpose of a VCR. The system is meant to be reactive, i.e. focused on feedback & guidance.
The reason for that is simple: If you talk about specific skills, stats or mechanics, the responses tend to be focussed on sub-aspects and not about the 'big picture'. Without a general concept or strategy to back it, it's likely that changes don't take relevant dependencies into account.
Speed bonuses f.e. aren't just convenient. They alter the time needed to close a gap. Therefore, they increase the disadvantages of wearing cloth armor, destroys the relevance of range, casting time and strategical positioningas well. A higher critical damage or higher vigor rate doesn't just increase the DPS, they alter the relevance of skills and inbalance anything based on a duration (i.e. stuns). More variable statpoints & PvP-bonuses do heighten the likelyness of mallicious extremes. But all that might be reasonable if seen in a narrow context.
And if there are any developers at Gravity that truly believe 'to lower stuff' would be a bad thing, they are not unreasonable, just plain insane. There are simply natural mathematical boundaries. F.e. you can't expect to increase percentages and stay below 100% forever. And there's a saying: The dose makes the poison.
____________
But my complains aren't just about WHAT they've changed or not, but also HOW they approach things. F.e. there are working concepts to address both the Battle Tactics and one-shots out of hide. However, both include way too many unreasonable additions (affecting only the first hit; BT being too complex and more punishing in PvE than PvP). So they are on a hold.
No matter if Gravity waits for a mystical, perfect moment or are busy with other stuff, the concept is flawed already. Don't start things, you can't finish. There ought to be a big goal, but you'll still make small steps. Noone jump up a mountain... you walk.
And here, I talk about the efforts, not the impact.
And that's also more or less the reason why I left the VCRs. Usually, there are three-to-four important questions to achieve any given task:
Gravity failed to 'answer' any of them! There's no vision (VCRs asked about class 'roles'), there is no plan (when did they pretend to balance classes?), no hint about anything they need and apparently no real interest.
If they haven't knocked their heads recently they would rather introduce something better, that will deteriorate the old OP things and let the game balances out by itself from there.
See, it's easy to proclaim that, but it's an empty phrase. It's a bit like this: "Without poverty, there would be no crime.". Neither statement validates, whether the prerequisite is achievable or reaonable. So the presumption stays kind of pointless.
In your case, it's the guess that current inbalances will deteriorate (in a reasonable amount of time). But would a 40% higher damage mean less in the near future? Would Battle Tactics become less valueable without addressing it directly or would the defense or vigor formulas become more balanced over time or isn't it likely that players and stay at the cap?
You see, easy to claim, but hard to verify... no matter who would be responsible for it in the end.
Not the perfect solution, but we aren't really here for a perfect game either. Okay fine, some of us.
Well, I was accused of many things in the past. Being not chatty enough, writing walls of text, using too much math or simply being non-concensual. Couldn't be happier to add perfectionism as well.
But things are rarely black-&-white. IMO, there is enough room between the current state of RO2 and a 'perfect game'. What I tried to show was that it wouldn't be hard to change things. And it's not a matter of resources or community, just about interest and a vision to strive for.
Edited by Greven79, 30 July 2015 - 11:17 AM.
Amateur Blogger
Posted 30 July 2015 - 11:28 AM
The issue you mention is that you can't "login" from the Download button, but if you login from a different page and then click the button, the download starts normally.
Yeah except it doesn't go anywhere after that, there is an error message.
Too Legit To Quit
Posted 30 July 2015 - 02:04 PM
Yeah except it doesn't go anywhere after that, there is an error message.
Well, when I tried by request of Njoror, the download started normally IF I was previously logged in, rather than using the Download button pop up.
But it seems they have fixed the button's login as well, since it worked fine for me just now. So hopefully there won't be any more issues now.
Amateur Blogger
Posted 30 July 2015 - 03:01 PM
Well, when I tried by request of Njoror, the download started normally IF I was previously logged in, rather than using the Download button pop up.
But it seems they have fixed the button's login as well, since it worked fine for me just now. So hopefully there won't be any more issues now.
Well what works for YOU doesn't mean it works for everyone. I do not know how to be more plain...IT DOES NOT WORK. It says RO2 DLM error when it tries to launch the download. This comp is only a couple months old, I had the game on here before with no trouble...and it won't work now. But quite frankly I tired of messing with it.
Amateur Blogger
Posted 30 July 2015 - 06:24 PM
Too Legit To Quit
Posted 31 July 2015 - 05:11 AM
Spoiler
This is an assessment.
To begin you called out Gravity for being a coward. After that you slammed them for ignoring quality of life fixes, even though you've once hammered down the idea of putting kafra flight service on Dayr Desert. I believe your main argument at that time was "leave it as it is".
Bringing the focus back to developers, you went on to criticize their lack of an in-depth roadmap and their dubious methodology in solving problems, even though their solution to last year hit-rate disaster was sort of borrowing one of your methods to that problem. The part where other stats beside AGI will give accuracy.
And later on you denied yourself the pleasure of coming up with an out-of-box solution, which supposed to be an exciting process for a developer, as the points coming to an end.
_______________
Allow me to speak on your behalf about what you really wanted to say: I am the better game developer.
Maybe you are. Maybe your advice could benefit the game. Maybe I've gave too many benefit of doubt to Gravity. Maybe the developers truly don't see any future ahead.
That's a lot of probable, but I don't really need to prove any one of their outcome, because I know exactly where should I be proving myself.
Too many Maybe
Anyway this game for me does't value all the time you are losing QQing here
BlondHedart is gone for god and not by his chose
We lost Greven79 one of the most active VCR and proposer
Telovi you keep defending the game and Gravity but every post i read seems like you trust what you say every day less
I lost another Guild Leader that stopped playing and I keep ignoring the reality that I have to find another guild simply because I don't see a reason to do it
Where are the 15-20 pages of comments in the patch notes?
where are all the players that we all knew that used to talk in public chat?
Were are the request for party? only muka and osiris are still around
We can talk a lot, we can say what we want, we can suggest, request, report but do you really think something will change?
So what's the point in arguing between us?
Too Legit To Quit
Posted 10 August 2015 - 01:22 PM
This is an assessment.
To begin you called out Gravity for being a coward. After that you slammed them for ignoring quality of life fixes, even though you've once hammered down the idea of putting kafra flight service on Dayr Desert. I believe your main argument at that time was "leave it as it is".
I call this a perfect example of a "barking" reply: Emotional, but lacking indifference.
Typically, these kind of responses start with an discrediting over-generalization. In your case, the phrase: "called out Gravity for being a coward". The context is twisted for the very own needs, just to avoid a direct insult to keep the illusion of objectivity.
To clearify the opening assumption:
I called Gravity out for not having a concept, neither game-wise nor product-wise; not reacting on imminent mistakes and doubted that their development, test & release quality gets close to modern standards. But I wouldn't call them cowards. That an emotional quality and I prefer to rely on evidence.
___________________
The opening phrase is then usually followed by an out-of-context insult. Added because the brain searches for any possible weak point to incite an emotional response. Hopefully, this will derail the conversation and mark/tag the responding person with a lack of objectivity.
In your case: "hammered down the idea of putting kafra flight service on Dayr Desert".
This statement is neither relevant nor helpful and also a clear overstatement. Of all the suggestions I've made so far, it's surely one of the more insignificant ones. Referring to my disapprobation to add a dungeon exit button would have been at least a bit on context.
To clearify the follow-up insult:
I'm nowhere against kafra flights in Dayr Desert and my argument wasn't "leave it as it is". Instead, I questioned the relevance and beneficial impact of it. I.e. next to countless hours of grinding, complaining about 1min on a mount seems a bit off.
To be more precise: My focus was about the fact that not everything that's convenient, improves the game. Therefore, I tried to highlight the positive aspects of using a mount.
Crafting, traveling and item reorganization takes up much more time in Skyrim. Yet it's successful. In Fallout NV, there was a game mode where ammo had a weight and where you could become hungry & thirsty... a convenience nightmare, yet very flavorful.
___________________
Bringing the focus back to developers, you went on to criticize their lack of an in-depth roadmap and their dubious methodology in solving problems, even though their solution to last year hit-rate disaster was sort of borrowing one of your methods to that problem. The part where other stats beside AGI will give accuracy.
Well, if that statement wouldn't be all too pitiful & desperate, I would call it another attempt to focus on any possible weak point to get this off-topic.
Impossible for me to clarify things I've never suggested. It's also kind of creepy to assume that such a statement could have made it to Gravity and used unquestioned, just to blame me for it now. Boy, I've made so many precise suggestions about formula changes, class concepts, etc... TBH, it's most baseless accusation I've received in years!
And later on you denied yourself the pleasure of coming up with an out-of-box solution, which supposed to be an exciting process for a developer, as the points coming to an end.
Gravity had a bad start, but also leaned back too much during LotS. There were many unsolved or badly fixed issues. That's why I typically correct nostalgic feelings about LotS.
AoV first felt like a turning point, but it was by far too ambitious and horribly managed, causing a massive decline instead. And most of the changes thereafter just felt careless. All the issues we have now have been fortellable. Gravity had enough chances to stir the boat around. All but wasted.
A few months back, I sitll had the impression that WarpPortal bears up against the crushing tides. So I joined the VCR team. And although I promoted this system and will defend it forever, I considered to leave it the week I joined (but was begged to stay by some friends).
When I eventually quit, it wasn't due to some quarrels. Everything just consolidated my initial impression. It would take an overhaul of the organisation for this to work. No communication, no proper testing, questionable fixes and ambitious, but leaderless VCRs to spam Gravity with bug reports & ideas that are then prioritized randomly.
All my latest replies were about this... the missing process. So how would you define an "out-of-the-box" solution other than by "reorganize and add one"?
IMO, in order to improve the game, you have to establish a system of regular fixes. A lack of resources isn't an excuse, you just have to find the most cost-efficient steps. And in regard of balance fixes, there's surely no lack of ideas... there is a lack of organisation. That's why I repeat myself stating that the prerequisite for 'balance' is already missing.
Allow me to speak on your behalf about what you really wanted to say: I am the better game developer.
Maybe you are. Maybe your advice could benefit the game. Maybe I've gave too many benefit of doubt to Gravity. Maybe the developers truly don't see any future ahead.
That's a lot of probable, but I don't really need to prove any one of their outcome, because I know exactly where should I be proving myself.
That's nonsense. See, I've never preferred any class, never insisted on any of my suggestions, never supported secrecy, abusals, glitches, etc., never insulted anyone and I had the guts to leave the VCR system - the closest thing of feeling like an game developer.
If you think that these are attributes of a delusion of grandeur, you can't be helped.
As I've said, I am not black-&-white minded. Not every whistleblower is a public enemy, not every complain undermines the developer interest. And not every willingness to contribute is selfishness.
VCRs aren't just wannabe VIPs and football fans aren't all wannabe coaches.
Edited by Greven79, 13 August 2015 - 07:44 AM.
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