26 replies to this topic

[rakionist]

Gonna start on these two topics. First one shall be the warrior bug which is irritating and hella disadvantaged with this especially for knight tier. There is this bug where if we use stun attack and only land one hit, the enemy falls but "walks away" to somewhere else. By right, once a stun hit, it should just stay on the ground regardless of how many hits it land. This is very annoying especially for dragoons where one of our main stuns, cross cut is so hard to hit since it is linear and in a a relatively short range. So if we manage to get lucky and land 1 hit, it is as good as nothing since this bug causes the opponent to "walk away" and we lose that opportunity to do our combo. I hope it can be fixed or something as cross cut is our only stun aside that shield throw which is even harder to hit, hence we dont add it. 

 

Next.. oh god invoker NEEDS TO BE NERFED! heal aside, invokers have it ridiculously easy. Their freeze skill is linear but has a pretty long range and has instant cast. Combined with their teleport skill to make it a combo to freeze easily, its easy to hit, but I wont go too much on this as this is skill and only the better invokers I see can pull off this stunt. This is already pretty good (for them), on top of that however, even airborne opponents can get hit by it! thats so ridiculous lol. Like when I try to run and jump away i still can get hit by it even when Im pretty much out of range, hence the observation. Tried this many times, and I notice it hits even after i press "C". And that thunder awakening skill of theirs to stun opponents, not only is it long duration, but opponents are still in that dizzy state even after being hit which makes it too OP. We all know invokers are notorious for that "x" button speed and damage, so I think its pretty obvious with an awakening that OP(duration and stuns after hit still), the game is sealed once that strikes you. Is it hard to make this deadly awakening hit you? Go back to what I mentioned about the freeze. 

 

Now as if that "x" craze wasnt strong enough, lets go to the alternative basic attack, "Z". Have you tried escaping/stunning an invoker when he spams that Z? As long as the invoker has enough attack speed (which everyone adds attack speed for their invoker to abuse this), he is invincible. It knocks you back and prevents you from moving when you get struck by it. So just keep spamming that Z and push the enemy to the wall and yeah game over. Don't even bother trying to get around it cus even ur moves cant stun or break it when invoker is spamming Z mode. So yeah you can pretty much see how broken this job is. 

 

Leave your opinions below in the comments and lets see how to resolve this! Does invoker need to be nerfed? Wat do u think

[Agitodesu]

The things you mentioned are normal in this game.
I play dragoon a bit so I can understand your cross cut dilemma. The reason why they walk along your screen is because of lag walk. They run across the screen, yet don't take any damage unless they lag wall close to the original area of being knocked down. You can apply debuffs if you are quick enough, with dragons I can chase the lag and use joint break, armor break, weapon crasher so when they come back up they don't do as much unless they are running movement speed. This lag glitch that happens happen mostly on solid knockdowns where you can not recover faster by pressing c. Example: Sword dance, gust slash, and cross cut. Heck in high level play, people can lag out of my stumble bum, shield bash, and even chain combo stuns. The best thing you can do is learn how to catch more as of now. Warrior classes aren't that strong so most people have to wait for a buff or leave it to rot for the time being.

Invokers already got nerfed recently.
Invokers do not have a set attack or combo that they can pull off so it's a hard class to toy with. Invokers from what I have seen and played only use a limited amount of skills when attacking. Heavens wraith, magnet, barbarian, witches curse, (spark rock sometimes), quagmire. Out of those only 2 of them do damage and the rest is to help you land your x. I don't think invokers will be a problem when elements get fixed around later on. As for the z spam, it is the most effective way to shut down the warrior class as a whole with a single button, but there are a few ways to play against those type of players. Just play more against them to see what you can do, if you sit their and cry over a few losses, you aren't going to get any better. Everything you mentioned is quite normal for now.

[Precrush]

Normal doesn't mean it isn't something to be fixed though. I agree on this laggy walk thing, it is a really annoying bug or what ever you want to call it, been around for ages and probably not something that can be easily fixed. When it comes to balance changes regarding skills those can't really be discussed quite yet, since we might get some adjustments to the way certain stats work, most notably elements. Those changes will change the balance quite a lot, and clerics for example will probably move closer to the bottom tier if elements are nerfed bad in pvp. Also skill changes require this development takeover, which is still who knows how far from now.

Edited by Precrush, 07 November 2015 - 01:14 PM.

[Homurasan]

I never have any problem with Z-spamming, since I can as a Sorcerer fire an Emblem and effectively stun them for 2 seconds. I believe not all classes have instant-cast spells though.

[StormHaven]

. Those changes will change the balance quite a lot, and clerics for example will probably move closer to the bottom tier if elements are nerfed bad in pvp. Also skill changes require this development takeover, which is still who knows how far from now.

 

Mmmmm nope, the even after an element nerf invokers will fall to Lower High tier/ Upper Mid tier due to how effective Barb/Witch's Curse/Divine Wraith work with each other, if 1 misses they still have 2 others to get you with. Remember Witch's Curse can last up to 25 seconds in pvp, that's enough for almost 4 attempts at barb(which has a 89% success rate at 10/10 that can't be reduced by Ice continent equips) before the effect wears off.  So yea while their damage output will drop from God tier to low tier Invokers over all(atleast average ones) will still be sitting up in High/Mid tier.

 

 

edit: To be honest invokers and summoners are probably 2 classes that need just a complete rework because of their current skill sets, it's not really possible to nerf them to a good with level without destroying most of their skills.

Edited by StormHaven, 07 November 2015 - 03:55 PM.

[rakionist]

@Agitodesu "You can apply debuffs if you are quick enough, with dragons I can chase the lag and use joint break, armor break, weapon crasher so when they come back up they don't do as much unless they are running movement speed." This has nothing to do with skill whatsoever, its a bug that puts the opponent at a disadvantage. Also lets all agree not everyone is as "fast" as you to chase down that lag and you don't expect everyone to have the same build same speed as you whatsoever just to counter this bug. I don't see why we should adapt to a BUG when the best way to resolve it is to fix the bug, simple as that. And they dont need combo whatsoever, just spam the same thing to freeze opponent and do it all again. You decide which is worse, executing a combo or to get spammed by this over and over again. 

 

"Out of those only 2 of them do damage and the rest is to help you land your x" Isn't that the whole point of it? to land your attacks. Its because of these OP skills its ridiculously easy to land their attack or X on opponent. So I don't get what you are trying to say.

 

@Homurasan "I never have any problem with Z-spamming, since I can as a Sorcerer fire an Emblem and effectively stun them for 2 seconds. I believe not all classes have instant-cast spells though." Not everyone is a sorcerer or more importantly, is a ranged character to get past this challenge. And for instant-cast spells, pretty much every of invokers main skill is instant cast. Think about it. As a Dragoon do u know how frustrating it is to see your crosscut unable to reach opponent yet the opponent invoker's freeze range is so long that it can hit you from the other side. Try using a melee char like warrior or thief and vs a skilled invoker, you'll understand.

 

Also, Dragoons have another problem with shoulder charge skill. when it hits the wall it gets stuck there for 2-3 seconds which is very annoying. Bug or not i dont know but yeah note that.

 

 

 

Or perhaps remove dragoon's nerf. With just a short ranged linear cross cut to stun, it is at a very big disadvantage. Lets not go to the 1 combo thing first aite, lets see how we can even land a stun more easily before we talk about 1 combo

Edited by rakionist, 07 November 2015 - 08:17 PM.

[Precrush]

Mmmmm nope, the even after an element nerf invokers will fall to Lower High tier/ Upper Mid tier due to how effective Barb/Witch's Curse/Divine Wraith work with each other, if 1 misses they still have 2 others to get you with. Remember Witch's Curse can last up to 25 seconds in pvp, that's enough for almost 4 attempts at barb(which has a 89% success rate at 10/10 that can't be reduced by Ice continent equips) before the effect wears off. So yea while their damage output will drop from God tier to low tier Invokers over all(atleast average ones) will still be sitting up in High/Mid tier.


edit: To be honest invokers and summoners are probably 2 classes that need just a complete rework because of their current skill sets, it's not really possible to nerf them to a good with level without destroying most of their skills.

I predict that the damage output without elements on invokers would be so bad that killing someone would take a few minutes of lock. That would not be a strong class. In bsq and empo however, invokers would still be decent due to those debuffs and heals.

I think only thing that needs to be done to summoners and invokers is making the X-spam do a sensible amouth of damage, and also invokers adjusting their healing abilities and possibly making debuffs last less time. Well in invokers case that sounds like a complete rework I guess lol.

Edited by Precrush, 08 November 2015 - 01:50 AM.

[StormHaven]

I predict that the damage output without elements on invokers would be so bad that killing someone would take a few minutes of lock.

 

Nope,wrong prior to elements it only took an invoker usually landing barb 2-3 times depending on their attackspeed and solars to drop even stacked players. The only class in DS history to take minutes to kill anyone was Paladins before their weapons were buffed/had access to crit damage gear.

Edited by StormHaven, 08 November 2015 - 08:53 AM.

[Agitodesu]

I would still recommend reverting the damage drop done normally after/before/or at the same time that elements get reworked.

For invokers x spam

Edited by Agitodesu, 08 November 2015 - 09:07 AM.

[Precrush]

People didn't have as much def back then, also was the continuous x-attack nerf up at that time?

[Agitodesu]

The x spam was a recent nerf from the invoker/twin/summoner fix. Apparently the reducing damage done over a short time would fix the entire damage done to others. It really didn't matter, but it hit pve decently although trying to fix pvp. My damage went from around 5k to 1-2 k over extended x spams on monsters. And I don't use elements in pve. In pvp, the damage done over time goes from like 1500 to 1400 since defense isn't a huge factor when everyone is stacked.

[StormHaven]

People didn't have as much def back then, also was the continuous x-attack nerf up at that time?

 

People had the same if not more def back then thanks to Paris wings.

[Agitodesu]

MDef is significantly harder to stack compared to PDef. So usually in most cases there were some mages that did a lot of damage before.

[Precrush]

On invokers, dmg done by X-spam is reduced to 30% after about 5 hits or so. This doesn't effect pve and doesn't take to account element dmg. And people did have less def, even if they did use paris wings, POS makes up for that in other parts and I'm pretty sure elements came around when elga did so people didn't even have that back then, though I might be mistaken on that one. Of course one thing to take to account here is if elements are nerfed, atk/def have to be recalculated anyway to make people actually die at a recent speed.

 

[Kristof3195]

will there be investigation or taken action what  causes lag walk and how to remove it since honestly dragoons are unplayable in pvp until this one gets fixed. The only great catches I got all cause lag walk and since I catch someone and he just walks away without doing it I actualy didnt catched anything.. If only one skill would might to cause it but not a whole skill tree . I cant pull off a normal combo without the enemy just lagwalk away. Most of the time after Ascending Dragon in the combo.

Edited by Kristof3195, 10 November 2015 - 10:28 AM.

[Agitodesu]

I have absolutely no problems with dragons in pvp. Although in bsq they aren't very good at all. It's just that 90% of any skills being used in bsq cancels your skill. Whether it's being aimed at you or just random things hitting you.

Although in bsq there are common people who lag walk incredible things. Some people lag walk almost everything including ghost fighter, barbarian,heavens wraith, blizzard, penguin, they can even lag walk out of an aas that's been hitting them for 4 seconds.

Edited by Agitodesu, 10 November 2015 - 11:17 AM.

[StormHaven]

only flash bang has a built in lagwalk, other than that lagwalk literally is lag the higher ping your opponent has to the server, the more you notice it.

Edited by StormHaven, 10 November 2015 - 11:34 AM.

[Kristof3195]

and is it being investigated or just left like it is ? Cuz usualy in online games when people get a lag spike they tend to freeze in one place even the animation or start wildly teleporting around the map

Edited by Kristof3195, 10 November 2015 - 01:05 PM.

[Agitodesu]

It's client sided which is different. In most games the side that lags usually receives the bad end, here if you lag you can teleport, get free escapes, and do damage to the other person without actually hitting them from the perspective of a normal player.

And obviously when you cast a spell it takes 5ever. When you teleport, get free escapes by lag walking even the most sturdy cc, damage others while having the same casting time it's most likely hacking.

Edited by Agitodesu, 10 November 2015 - 02:12 PM.

[Kristof3195]

a simple solution would be a nice change to invokers and to any x spamming class that would nerf it. Just remove pushback and Super armor from x / z spam problem solved. Its just ridiculous when someone has 300 attackspeed with 1 button to it Super armor and pushback. When you are against it (  most likely cuz ur an invoker ) then tell me how do you stop it when u got no long range stun

Edited by Kristof3195, 12 November 2015 - 07:18 AM.

[ManItsMike]

a simple solution would be a nice change to invokers and to any x spamming class that would nerf it. Just remove pushback and Super armor from x / z spam problem solved. Its just ridiculous when someone has 300 attackspeed with 1 button to it Super armor and pushback. When you are against it ( most likely cuz ur an invoker ) then tell me how do you stop it when u got no long range stun

This would severely damage the class in pve. It would create many more problems than it would fix. Also, if we were to follow this, it would remove chain combo for the class. Then, to balance that, every class would have to lose chain combo. Then where are we? Set back further.

It would just not work.

Edit: just want to point out that if chain combo had no knock back or flinch, there would be no advantage to using it, hence why I jumped to removal. It just makes no sense.

Edited by ManItsMike, 12 November 2015 - 07:59 AM.

[Precrush]

I don't know much about how  chain combo balances out in pvp, I like the multiplayer pvp aspect way more plus in eu we had these cool community rules so no-one locked you down anyway. Chain combo was another waste of development time imo. All ways of permanently stunning your opponent 1v1 are bad for the pvp scene, everyone understands that.

Edited by Precrush, 12 November 2015 - 09:43 AM.

[StormHaven]

This would severely damage the class in pve. It would create many more problems than it would fix. Also, if we were to follow this, it would remove chain combo for the class. Then, to balance that, every class would have to lose chain combo. Then where are we? Set back further.

It would just not work.

Edit: just want to point out that if chain combo had no knock back or flinch, there would be no advantage to using it, hence why I jumped to removal. It just makes no sense.

 

Not sure how it would serverely damage the class in PvE tbh, classes had no isssues in pve before chain combos and even with chain combos all it did was make non-x spam classes even faster while x-spam stayed the same.....

 

edit: Not to mention some classes use change combos to cover great distances fast, others can apply stun,some can apply root, and others can knock back, removing flinching chain combos still makes them viable.

Edited by StormHaven, 12 November 2015 - 08:14 AM.

[ManItsMike]

Not sure how it would serverely damage the class in PvE tbh, classes had no isssues in pve before chain combos and even with chain combos all it did was make non-x spam classes even faster while x-spam stayed the same.....

Sure we had no issue before it was implemented. We also had no issue playing our classes before the level 60 job change was implemented. We had no trouble before new origin and galaxia as well.
Removing any of these would force people to change the way they play, having a negative impact.

Edit: I think this is an agree to disagree situation. I'm not taking it any further.

Edited by ManItsMike, 12 November 2015 - 08:19 AM.

[StormHaven]

Sure we had no issue before it was implemented. We also had no issue playing our classes before the level 60 job change was implemented. We had no trouble before new origin and galaxia as well.
Removing any of these would force people to change the way they play, having a negative impact.

Edit: I think this is an agree to disagree situation. I'm not taking it any further.

 

No it wouldn't? Do you plan on completely quitting using X spam ,your main source of damage on a class that has 2 skills beyond chain combos to buff x attack, just because it couldn't flinch anymore? Do you know how ridiculous that sounds.

 

That like saying Archer's had to change their playing style after AAS was nerfed.