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Upgrading info and system


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#1 Heimdallr

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Posted 29 November 2010 - 03:05 PM

Here is some info about an upgrade test I did today.

Renewal numbers:
no gear = 0 def = 1281 damage 0% reduction
+0 gear = 142def = 941 damage 26.6% reduction
+4 gear = 162def = 907 damage 29.2% reduction
+7 gear = 192def = 860 damage 32.8% reduction
+10 gear = 232def = 805 damage 37.1% reduction
+15 gear = 322def = 703 damage 45.1% reduction
+20 gear = 442def = 601 damage 53.0% reduction

Pre-renewal :

same +4 gear would show 29 def from gear +20 from upgrades (actually about 42% reduction)

this was tested with
2x Safety rings
Buckler
Shoes
Heavenly Maiden Robe
Opera Masque
Spiky Ban
Saint's Robe
no weapon
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#2 Theoretical

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Posted 29 November 2010 - 03:10 PM

That doesn't seem rewarding at all.
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#3 Kadelia

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Posted 29 November 2010 - 03:26 PM

You used to get that sort of reduction with +7 gears. Would make sense if +7 was easier and +10 wasn't ridiculous to get. But its not. Lame.
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#4 Akin

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Posted 29 November 2010 - 03:39 PM

That actually doesn't sound bad considering an Acolyte class character. The problem is, as Jayed pointed out, that even getting to +10 is ridiculous. Assumptio and Echo Song could have a nice affect here, especially with better swordsman class type equipment.

+8 should be the safe limit (and start the normal +5 scale from there) considering the diminishing return on DEF values (only a 25% reduction in damage from +4 to +20), but that would cut into enriched elu sales which would be a bad thing for Gravity as they switch to F2P.
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#5 Scott

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Posted 29 November 2010 - 04:57 PM

+11 should be a baseline at which the upgrade will always stay at +11, even if trying to make +12 fails.
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#6 Puppet

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Posted 29 November 2010 - 06:12 PM

anything above +8 is unrealistic for 90% of the population cause the of the crappy upgrade rates up to +10 forget about +10 or high upgrades for the 99.99% of the population, What exactly was the point of this post?

Edited by Puppet, 29 November 2010 - 06:13 PM.

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#7 Theoretical

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Posted 29 November 2010 - 06:17 PM

Maybe he wanted us to show our own defensive reductions with +20 gears...oh wait they dont exist.
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#8 Puppet

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Posted 29 November 2010 - 06:26 PM

Maybe he wanted us to show our own defensive reductions with +20 gears...oh wait they dont exist.


more like he wanted to show what 100% of the population will never
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#9 Theoretical

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Posted 29 November 2010 - 06:31 PM

Id pay for PERFECT refine chance. But its not drastic enough to risk going so high D:
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#10 Puppet

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Posted 29 November 2010 - 06:33 PM

Id pay for PERFECT refine chance. But its not drastic enough to risk going so high D:


I call for refine system like requiem when the whole populations can get +30 gear, Or atlest change it so gear dont break and it just drops a upgrade level on fail
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#11 Theoretical

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Posted 29 November 2010 - 06:38 PM

I'm not sure how Requiem works, but I love the ROSE upgrade style. Its hard, but definitely possible to max items out safely. And lots of the items that help are in game drops.
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#12 Puppet

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Posted 29 November 2010 - 06:44 PM

requiem is like card ( 2 Cards) game upgrade you pick card and if the card you picked is success it upgrades and most upgrades success rate was 80% even at +20 upgrades all you need was the ore to upgrades you could fail an upgrade few times depending on gear before you start getting a chance of breaking the gear on fail and even then the break rate was less then 10% in most cases, I dont remember if it upon fail the + went down tho

Edited by Puppet, 29 November 2010 - 06:52 PM.

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#13 LethalJokeChar

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Posted 29 November 2010 - 06:52 PM

Here is some info about an upgrade test I did today.

Renewal numbers:
no gear = 0 def = 1281 damage 0% reduction
+0 gear = 142def = 941 damage 26.6% reduction
+4 gear = 162def = 907 damage 29.2% reduction
+7 gear = 192def = 860 damage 32.8% reduction
+10 gear = 232def = 805 damage 37.1% reduction
+15 gear = 322def = 703 damage 45.1% reduction
+20 gear = 442def = 601 damage 53.0% reduction

Pre-renewal :

same +4 gear would show 29 def from gear +20 from upgrades (actually about 42% reduction)

this was tested with
2x Safety rings
Buckler
Shoes
Heavenly Maiden Robe
Opera Masque
Spiky Ban
Saint's Robe
no weapon


Interesting... it seems the renewal damage reduction formula is very close to:

Reduction = 1 - 1 / (1 + .00255 * DEF)

And that's very funny, because warcraft 3 uses the same sort of formula for its units' armor reductions. It's also much like blizard's WoW armor formula, where each point of armor increases a character's "time to live" by the exact same amount...

It looks like they really are trying to make RO like WoW. :p_devil:

Edited by LethalJokeChar, 30 November 2010 - 08:35 AM.

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#14 Mwrip

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Posted 29 November 2010 - 07:15 PM

I don't think that table itself is the problem, it's the odds behind it. +7 is hard, +10 is almost impossible, I don't think a single +13 exists in all of iRO, and +20 just plain isn't going to happen. (1:10,000,000,000 chance on an item that's already +10).

Considering how the new system works, it sounds like +10 should be the safe limit, and then do odds of 95,90,80,70,60,50,40,30,20,10 for the other 10 levels.

The numbers I posted might be a bit too gentle... but 1:few hundred chance to get halfway up the upgrade chart, with 1:10,000,000,000 odds for the other half... and that's on the ones that succeeded in going +10 isn't even remotely sane.

It looks like they really are trying to make RO like WoW.


Sadly, yes, and not just on things like this. The whole "you WILL fight on this map at this level" thing is the far more offensive WoW-copy. NOT being railroaded is one of the reasons I liked RO and didn't like WoW, although that's now gone.

Edited by Mwrip, 29 November 2010 - 07:17 PM.

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#15 Scott

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 12:31 AM

Interesting... it seems the renewal damage reduction formula is very close to:

Reduction = 1 / (1 + .00255 * DEF)

And that's very funny, because warcraft 3 uses the same sort of formula for its units' armor reductions. It's also much like blizard's WoW armor formula, where each point of armor increases a character's "time to live" by the exact same amount...

It looks like they really are trying to make RO like WoW. :p_devil:


It's a formula. And if it gives the % reductions they want on all levels, who cares if it is similar to WoWs.
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#16 Clogon

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 01:22 AM

Renewal def formula is damage*(4000+equipment def)/(4000+10*equipment def)-status def.
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#17 LethalJokeChar

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 01:53 AM

Renewal def formula is damage*(4000+equipment def)/(4000+10*equipment def)-status def.


You are quite a long shot off. Starting at 38 and going up to 75 damage off.

My thing? It's pretty accurate. :p_devil:

Oh yeah, but, I suppose this is only counting equip defense or whatever.... anyway, seems to work perfectly on whatever it is Heim just tested stuff on.

Edited by LethalJokeChar, 30 November 2010 - 01:54 AM.

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#18 mooMOOmoo

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 06:44 AM

Proposal

Upgrade success chances:
level 1: 90%
level 2: 80%
level 3: 70%
level 4: 60%
Whenever you are upgrading beyond the item's safe limits. Does not matter your weapon's current upgrade level.
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#19 Mwrip

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 01:05 PM

Proposal

Upgrade success chances:
level 1: 90%
level 2: 80%
level 3: 70%
level 4: 60%
Whenever you are upgrading beyond the item's safe limits. Does not matter your weapon's current upgrade level.


That would make a level 4 weapon have an 0.02% chance to +20, an 0.36% chance to +15, and a 4.66% chance to +10. I think those numbers need to be a bit higher.
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#20 Randfeon

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 01:49 PM

Just hire someone better than Hollgrehenn.
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#21 LethalJokeChar

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 02:35 PM

That would make a level 4 weapon have an 0.02% chance to +20, an 0.36% chance to +15, and a 4.66% chance to +10. I think those numbers need to be a bit higher.


Well considering the chances of getting a +10 weapon before was like... 1 in 2400 or something, 1 in 3544 chance for a +20 lv 4 weapon or armor isn't bad at all. In fact, that may be too high, actually...
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#22 Brindizer

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 08:10 PM

Make refining ore much more difficult to acquire but make it have a larger success rate across the board.

Remove items breaking on failure at all levels. Or take the "HURR HURR MAKE US RICH" method of having a weapon "break," but allow it to be repaired with a kafra shop hammer.
Then make it require one hammer for every upgrade level over the safe limit.

One hammer is 50 points.

BROKE IT GOING TO +9? 5 HAMMERS PLEASE.
ALRIGHT. YOU MAY CONTINUE SMASHING.
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#23 Mwrip

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 08:41 PM

Well considering the chances of getting a +10 weapon before was like... 1 in 2400 or something, 1 in 3544 chance for a +20 lv 4 weapon or armor isn't bad at all. In fact, that may be too high, actually...


+20 should be hard, but +10 is like +5 used to be... it shouldn't have a 5% chance. Likewise, +15 is about +7 on the old table, and 1/300 seems a bit nuts for that.
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#24 JAYRAD

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Posted 01 December 2010 - 06:55 AM

you guys seem to neglect all of the gears and cards that have affects beyond a certain upgrade point. how many +15 CoD's do you really want floating around? Scaling the current items will kill the people who currently have them not to mention the amount of QQ-ing that will be done if scaling is done. what i mean by scaling is, take for example Aquarius Diadem, instead of the effect happening at +7, taking into consideration the new (after a buff to refinement system) ease of getting +7, the cumulative chance of getting +7, and the fact that max upgrade has doubled, scaling the level to where the effect kicks in at +9 to +12.

the only thing that can be done, imo, is a cash item that either greatly increases the chance up upgrading, or a cash item that removes the risk of breaking, or even just no breaking but losing an upgrade level. all of these cash items being worth slightly more than enriched elu/ori and making it to where you cant get more than 3 or 4 with 500kp. cash items are just about the only thing that can be done and even those will get abused to all hell.

the amount of elu/ori still in storage is unreal, so enhancing the upgrade rate of elu wouldnt really work either. this can probably only be done properly if only mvp/boss protocol monsters dropped elu/ori and normal monsters dropped rough version with more rough elu/ori being required to make a normal elu/ori. or possibly only level 100+ to go with the scaling of drops worth per level.

my suggestion would be that all equipment receive different success rates and/or possibly rating all the current items to tier lists like the current weapon level system. this will probably have to be voted on by the community. as far as each gear receiving different success rates i would suggest that footgear be the (relatively) easiest to upgrade, followed by garment, armor, and lastly headgear most difficult.

Edited by JAYRAD, 01 December 2010 - 07:01 AM.

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#25 Clogon

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Posted 01 December 2010 - 10:37 PM

You are quite a long shot off. Starting at 38 and going up to 75 damage off.

My thing? It's pretty accurate. :)

Oh yeah, but, I suppose this is only counting equip defense or whatever.... anyway, seems to work perfectly on whatever it is Heim just tested stuff on.


I guess you do not know of the existance of status def eh?
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