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#1 Idun

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Posted 07 January 2016 - 03:50 PM

Class Balance Feedback

CRECENTIA

To access the current Class Feedback board for Crecentia: Click Here

To view current Class Feedback for all classes: Click Here

 

Welcome to the Crecentia class balance feedback thread! The purpose of this thread is to collect information about the skills, stats, and specific features of this class that might need improvement for the sake of balance between classes.

 

In this thread you may:

 

Make suggestions for class balance.

 

Or

 

Comment on existing topics of class balance.

 

To make a new suggestion for class balance, please use the following format:

 

Spoiler

 

To comment on an existing topic, please use the following format:

 

Spoiler

 

Please keep all feedback civil, and do not comment on this forum unless you are reporting a balance idea or providing feedback for an existing topic. 


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#2 Quetzalcoatlx

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Posted 18 January 2016 - 09:16 AM

Topic Title:

      Curse Reinforce should affect all Crecentia's curse including Contingency.

 

Severity:

     Tweak: This is a suggested change to improve a skill or stat

 

Problem:

      Just noticed that all DoT skill of Crecentia is affected by the skill except Contingency. Although very small increase(15% of 26% at 10/10 Contingency or I dont know maybe 15% + 26%). I still think it deserves to get an effect from curse reinforce.


Edited by Quetzalcoatlx, 18 January 2016 - 09:20 AM.

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#3 magpi

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Posted 18 January 2016 - 11:26 AM

Please use the correct format listed in the spoiler. 

 

 

edit//

Thank you quetz! I added that to the contingency card. If you know of any other curses that are not effected by curse reinforce, please let us know! 


Edited by magpi, 18 January 2016 - 11:32 AM.

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#4 flukeSG2

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Posted 18 January 2016 - 01:02 PM

And i do think crecentia needs a nerf about "dot" such as adding the possibility to miss, it would be fair this way :)

 

Shouldn't that be all DoT's for all magic using classes? lol


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#5 SweetMamaRush

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Posted 18 January 2016 - 05:00 PM

then nerf all dots.. :heh:  :heh:  :heh:


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#6 Quetzalcoatlx

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Posted 19 January 2016 - 07:54 AM

And i do think crecentia needs a nerf about "dot" such as adding the possibility to miss, it would be fair this way :)

 

3/4 of the dots misses. Contingency can miss, Crucio as well, Land of Darkness have low accuracy or so I think. They are just not that strong compare to Punun Coolers :heh:


Edited by Quetzalcoatlx, 19 January 2016 - 07:55 AM.

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#7 Sowlemia

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Posted 19 January 2016 - 06:24 PM

Shouldn't that be all DoT's for all magic using classes? lol

 

at this moment other magic classes' dot's miss.... only cres has a dot that cannot miss.


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#8 magpi

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Posted 19 January 2016 - 07:22 PM

I do not understand the hostile nature of your comments, especially over something we discussed months ago. PLEASE USE THE CORRECT FORMAT if you would like to add feedback. 


Edited by magpi, 19 January 2016 - 07:22 PM.

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#9 SweetMamaRush

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Posted 19 January 2016 - 09:52 PM

but only one dot cress can be useable..others is useless..not like other class op dot..u should research please :heh:  :heh:  :heh:


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#10 Sowlemia

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Posted 20 January 2016 - 02:12 AM

Topic Title:

      OP dot for cress as well as its hit.

 

Severity:

     Tweak: This is a suggestion to make it fair

 

Problem:

      I noticed that crecentia regardless of having pets that can deal so much damage have a dot that cannot miss and i do not understand why, i play cres, wiz and priest that have dots and every of my dot can miss except "Furnunculus" and that is not fair, every other class' dot's can miss. At this moment this dot lasts for 30 seconds and has a long range.

 

We may compare "Furnunculus" to "Firestarter" from Wizard, the problem is, that "Firestarter" can miss and deals 20% damage level 1 while "Furnunculus" deals 100+ depending on the level of the dot.

 

Putting a 100% hit rate dot is not fair towards classes that are Dodge oriented.

 

(By the way i hope these comments do not go instantly in VCR's chat else yeah i wrote it for nothing since some ar eagainst this idea, i hope devs can see these.)

 


Edited by Sowlemia, 20 January 2016 - 06:53 AM.

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#11 Greven79

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Posted 20 January 2016 - 12:01 PM

I think I haven't made myself clear enough back then.

That's why I'd like to give you a short example of how to balance DoTs.

 

Simplified calculation:

Let's take a 250% attack skill (like Bash // Double Strike, etc.) that can be used every 1.5 seconds (due to the animation time).

A character who uses this skill 20 times, would deal 5000% damage in total (20x 250%) and it would take 30sec to do so.

 

if that character spends 5 skill points to max another powerful attack (like Aura Strike), he can deal 450% damage on every 4th attack (240% + 3x 70%).

Over the same duration of 30sec, he would then  be able to use the normal attack 15 and powerful one 5 times. All in all, a 6000% damage total (15x 250% + 5x 450%)

That means, those 5 skillpoints increased his DPS ratio by 20% (6000 / 5000).

 

In order to balance the DoTs, the DPS increase should be similar to that. A character who had spent 5 points on a DoT (like Furnunculus) instead, shouldn't deal more than 6000% either.

(Btw. casting a DoT also takes 1.5sec as well).

 

If the DoT skill lasts for 30sec, casting it once would be enough. Therefore, that character would still be able to use the normal attack 19 times (19x 250%).

These 19x skill uses would already generate a 4750% damage total, so the DoT would have to deal 1250% damage in total (all the ticks combined) to achieve the 6000% mark..

Assuming 2sec per tick and 15 ticks over 30sec....

 

Tha's no more than 83.3% per tick.

 

Problems:

Beside plenty of minor issues (differences in ATK; weapon damage;range, hit ratio, crit. chance, etc.), there are three major issues:

  • DoTs do ignore the defense rate (armor)
  • A single DoT deals 1250% damage per use, more than any normal attack.
  • Focussing on multiple DoTs

 

armor penetration:

If the character attackis a target with 75% defense rate, 3/4th of the normal attack damage would be absorbed. In case of a 250% base rate, only  62.5% will get through.

The DoT however would still be the same, suddenly being more powerful than any normal attack.

 

There are three solutions to that:

  • DoTs should be affected by defense as well
  • there should be a similar powerful protection against DoTs (MDEF, etc.)
  • the defense rate against normal attacks should be significantly lower.

I already stated, why I would suggest the last option above all others, but I wouldn't ignore the other options completely.

 

damage per use:

Such a high difference per skill use (250% vs. 1250%) only exists, if the DoT lasts 30sec.

So let's repeat the same calculation, assuming a 6sec duration for the DoT instead:

 

3x normal attacks plus 1x powerful one => 3x 250% + 1x 450%

3x normal attacks plus 1x 6-sec-DoT => 3x 250% + 1x 450% => i.e. 150% per tick and 3 ticks in total

 

Now, it's 250% vs. 450%, a by far more balanced ratio.

 

combining several DoTs

The calculation above assumes that the character would have to max. the normal attack. But that doesn't have to be the case. He might focus purely on two or three different DoTs.

Assuming the same 'rules' apply for all the DoTs, he could achieve 2x 83.3% damage = 166.7% or even 3x 83.3% = 250% every 2sec.

 

Sure, 250% every 2sec still isn't the same as 250~300% every 1.5sec, but the main issue is effort needed to achieve that, not the damage.

 

Whereas focussing on a normal attack skill forces the player to use it repeatingly and continuously, it would take only two or three skill uses every 30sec should the player favor the DoTs instead.

And in many situations, this means the player would focus on another target and another one.... and another one... and another one...

 

The cause: DoTs simply don't have the same limitations as other attack skills. They neither have a cooldown nor do they require or consume some sort of stacks ('Aura', 'rage', 'combo ponts', etc.).

That makes them pretty dangerous, even if all the other aspects would have been taken care of and fixed.

 

Of course, the most efficient countermeassure is to limit the number of DoTs a class has access to. But this limits the design options as well. Another method is to avoid pure DoTs.and rather add a much lower DoT effect onto a normal attack skill (similar to Head Crush), but there should be more. So of course, reducing the duration helps qute a lot as well, making the DoTs more powerful but also far more time-consuming (especially, if you try to keep them up on multiple targets).

 

And these ideas are those, focussed purely on the caster. But you could also change the way, characters can defend themself against DoTs. They could get a skill that shortens the duration or even ends it. Or they could have a convenient way to regenerate a lower amount of HP every other second. If it wouldn't take more effort than casting a DoT, it would have reduced the 'stacking issue' quite well already.

 

Conclusion:

Beside the apparent issues, there shouldn't be any DoT that lasts for more than 10~12 seconds. And if a class has access to more than one, some of the DoTs should be part of a normal attack skill (to lower the additional DoT damage) and/or should have additional drawbacks (casting time, cooldown, fix area, etc.)

 

But of course, focussing solely on DoTs can and should stay a viable & unique class characteristic.

 

 


Edited by Greven79, 20 January 2016 - 12:18 PM.

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#12 SweetMamaRush

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Posted 20 January 2016 - 05:03 PM

hmm..but u must conclude about def as well..magic class has lower def..if we compare about damage then we have to compare about def as well..because dot 2 per second vs other normal skill..other class as well get to one shot magic class even we running when battle <except warrior class..leap easily can avoid>..\

 

if u give example damage attack..give as well damage attack receive by class..like example bash can one shot magic class..if dot per second vs one shot from non magic class..then its useless to compare..dot ongoing..magic class already dead..because defense we get too low..n not all rich to refine all eq..if refine, defense compare to non magic attack is huge

 

magic class have powerfull dot + range attack

non magic has powerfull attack + defense

 

just reminder every class has own their speciality, if make same, then its useless..better this game make one class only..happy forever after.. :heh:  :heh:  :heh:  :heh:

 

=========================

agree for dot not ignore def as well..suggest make new stat like magic def <like others game> to against magic def..soo its preety fair..if other class dont want easily defeated by magic class then consume their stat to magic def as well..

 

 

 

 


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#13 Darkressxx

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Posted 20 January 2016 - 06:12 PM

 

Topic Title:

      OP dot for cress as well as its hit.

 

Severity:

     Tweak: This is a suggestion to make it fair

 

Problem:

      I noticed that crecentia regardless of having pets that can deal so much damage have a dot that cannot miss and i do not understand why, i play cres, wiz and priest that have dots and every of my dot can miss except "Furnunculus" and that is not fair, every other class' dot's can miss. At this moment this dot lasts for 30 seconds and has a long range.

 

We may compare "Furnunculus" to "Firestarter" from Wizard, the problem is, that "Firestarter" can miss and deals 20% damage level 1 while "Furnunculus" deals 100+ depending on the level of the dot.

 

Putting a 100% hit rate dot is not fair towards classes that are Dodge oriented.

 

(By the way i hope these comments do not go instantly in VCR's chat else yeah i wrote it for nothing since some ar eagainst this idea, i hope devs can see these.)

 

Fornunculus can't miss but, priest DOTs dont have Coolddown, Wizard Fireball DOT can crit, While Crescentia DOT can simply be ignored by a continuous healing.


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#14 Sowlemia

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 03:52 AM

then let' smake dot only last for 10 up to 12 seconds as greven said, + dot's should not ignore defense. + make them miss and let's decrease their damage.


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#15 SweetMamaRush

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 04:26 AM

i can smell something fishy..wuuuw..lets improve guys babe..not nerf class..n u soo obvious as master wizard..soo pity..decrease also wiz attack..oopps..if dot get nerf and magic attack got nerf..u got affect as well.. :heh:  :heh:  :heh:

and i was says woow wiz dot like 45k ?..nerf it also.. :heh:  :heh:  :heh:

==================

 

suggestion:

if furnunculus make other wiz dispointed, then make our basic attack useable..like tempest/bram gush/diem wind affect by int and not by str..

 

===================

 

make suggest for improve guys.. :p_laugh:  :p_laugh:  :p_laugh:


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#16 Sowlemia

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 05:30 AM

Dude i'm the first one who says "nerf wiz dot" so please stop QQing and let's nerf classes, may the god bless you dude cause you're annoying :) honestly you just want your class to be OP as hell ? you cannot ackonwlege that something has to get nerfed ? Ahaha hypocrisy everywhere...just nerf all dot's and stop QQing dude.

 

but i guess you're too narrow minded to read what i said on this forum as well "FIRE BALL's DOT is too OP" oh but, does not "OP" mean "Over powered" ? so when i say that it is too op, does not it mean that it needs a nerf ? Oh sorry i may be bad at reading what i say.

 

Want to make furnunculus 20K dot during 15 minutes, ? keep on xD but stop QQing at me because i want to nerf "every dot" from every class.

 

If you cannot get over rivalry because you dislike me then don't QQ here. even if i were to say something good about crecentia you would QQ because you dislike me, so i gave my feedback about it, if you're not happy about it, write your own, but stop acting like a kid over here.

 

PS: it has nothing to do about wiz, i also play rogue/priest/crecentia/sm and ranger, so stop involving wiz into your madness towards me. Your madness towards me is purely personal and you know it. That's just sad you cannot get over it and you're the one who says "bring feedback to improve" well...as i said "hypocrisy" .

 

At least when for instance greven does not agree on what i say, he gives his own feedback to support it, and i agree some of his suggestions but all that you do is "QQ without giving anything" that's too easy.


Edited by Sowlemia, 21 January 2016 - 06:04 AM.

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#17 nuruLinspirit

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 11:30 AM

pliss dont use any nerf word here for blance class..its just harsh word and make me sad.. :p_sad:

Topic title : Make levircopus work like shield..

 

Severity : Tweak

 

Problem : levicorpus skill can reduce 50 percent of damage recieved..for make this buff active, we have to cast this skill and make sure hit the mob/player as well..why not make this skill auto active like shadow armor..and for result we cannot miss to protect self for mob..<example when grind in fp tiger spot..threat use pet are high and this skill can protect to die..but its problem if we miss time/wrong time and this skill just gone like that..and wait for cooldown again..

 

Steps to reproduce : change this skill by this skill actived when cast even no mobs around..just for damage reduce..not for sleep effect,,


Edited by nuruLinspirit, 21 January 2016 - 11:32 AM.

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#18 Greven79

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Posted 22 January 2016 - 04:05 AM

@SweetMamaRush

I referred to Bash // Double Strike because they don't have a casting time and a 250% base will give you a better overview over all classes and their DoTs. And I used Aura Strike, because this skill generates one of the highest DPS increase per skillpoint. 
 
I could have used a 220% Diem Wind (instead of the 250%), which would lower the DoT damage down to 73.3% per tick or 1100% in total (IMO not a big difference). Or I could have assumed a 10% DPS increase (instead of the 20% granted by Aura Strike), which would have lowered the result for a 30sec DoT down to 44% per tick (660% in total).

 

So to highlight the obvious:

In my reply, I  wasn't suggesting a specific percentage. what I did was to describe a method of how to calculate a fair // balanced DoT damage in regard of DPS (or DPS increase per 5 additional skillpoints) Of course, the result will be different as soon as you alter the existing parameters or include different ones. That's why I didn't state whether I would lower or increase the damage, but focused myself on all the aspects that might stay problematic, no matter if you assume 44%, 83% or 150% per tick.

 

So sure, you might dislike the result of the example I've given, but there's still no real point arguing about other inbalances or class specialities.

 

but u must conclude about def as well..magic class has lower def..if we compare about damage then we have to compare about def as well..because dot 2 per second vs other normal skill..other class as well get to one shot magic class even we running when battle <except warrior class..leap easily can avoid>

 

if u give example damage attack..give as well damage attack receive by class..like example bash can one shot magic class..if dot per second vs one shot from non magic class..then its useless to compare..dot ongoing..magic class already dead..because defense we get too low..n not all rich to refine all eq..if refine, defense compare to non magic attack is huge

 

magic class have powerfull dot + range attack

non magic has powerfull attack + defense

 

just reminder every class has own their speciality,

 

So no, I don't have to consider defense more than I already did, simply because what you describe here is a separate issue independant of whether a class deals normal damage or damage over time. If some characters can be one-shotted, that's a problem for sure. But it's not directly linked to the aspect I've been talking about.

 

And addressing a problem via other rather unrelated ones won't lead towards balance, only towards a ball of interwoven problems!

 

A Crecentia f.e. shares many design concepts with other classes: Diem Wind & Illusion Blade are the skills to generates stacks, Curse Burst the one to spend them and Tempest is the high-cooldown, high-damage attack.. And this class shares the armor values with Rogues, Assassins, Rangers and Beastmasters and outbests those for Wizards, Sorcerers and Priests.

 

So in order to balance all these classes, you have to find methods how to calculate whether a 'class speciality' is balanced or not. And what I did here was to focus myself on one of them => the DoT damage. But that doesn't mean that I've forgotten all the other ones... those just ought to be the subjects of other Trello cards, replies and calculations.


Edited by Greven79, 22 January 2016 - 04:10 AM.

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#19 Greven79

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Posted 22 January 2016 - 10:28 AM

pliss dont use any nerf word here for blance class..its just harsh word and make me sad.. :p_sad:

Topic title: 

Make levircopus work like shield..

 

Severity:

Tweak

 

Problem:

Levicorpus skill can reduce 50 percent of damage recieved..for make this buff active, we have to cast this skill and make sure hit the mob/player as well..why not make this skill auto active like shadow armor..and for result we cannot miss to protect self for mob..<example when grind in fp tiger spot..threat use pet are high and this skill can protect to die..but its problem if we miss time/wrong time and this skill just gone like that..and wait for cooldown again..

 

Steps to reproduce:

change this skill by this skill actived when cast even no mobs around..just for damage reduce..not for sleep effect,,

 

There has been a similar discussions about that:

 

To repeat it (in a slightly different way):

First of all, there are two similar, yet very distinctive forms of damage mitigation: You can either buff your own defensive capabilites or place a similar type of debuff on an enemy.

 

By design, the Crecentia is centered around debuffs. Blindness, Raw Tilt, Imperio, Mayhem, Levicorpus all influence the enemy. Even Diem Wind, Illusion Blade, etc. work this way. The Crecentia won't receive the stacks, he places them on the enemy (as debuffs). Beside all the potential advantages debuffs might have, they also have some significant drawbacks:

 

The target has to be valid and in range. And in most cases, you must see and select it first.

 

Suggestions are rarely about one of these parts. Instead, it's more about the one inevitable difference that combines them all: Simplicity! That's what it's all about!

 

Sometimes, players don't want to care about the minor details and just want to be able to rely on a certain effect at the very second they want it. F.e. if a boss casts a deadly, room-wide AoE (and you aren't close enough to trigger the shield) or if a Shield Boomerang is thrown from a 20m distance, a buff is far more convenient. And that's why it's a favorite suggestion to remove the trigger restrictions of the 50% damage reduction (Levicorpus).

 

Now although this is perfectly valid, there are certain implification... Levicorpus combines two effects... the 50% damage reduction and a crowd control (sleep) effect. Since both parts are always triggered together, either the damage reduction or the crowd control effect will be kind of "wasted" (or be less relevant). If the targets fall asleep, the damage reduction isn't needed. Should you use the damage reduction to counter a boss AoE or a ranged attack, the additional crowd control effect (with it's 5m range) gets quite irrelevant // is wasted

 

The only aspect that links both parts together is IMO the trigger limitation of the damage reduction. If it's removed, I fear that the skill will be downgraded to just another damage reduction variant with a random additional effect and a questionable cooldown. In other words, one of the two effects will get superior. So I already asked (the hypothetical question) if players really need an unrestricted defense buff (keep the Ranger class in mind) and - more importantly - stated that should there be a consensus sbout an unrestricted buff, to at least separate the two effects (see Trello - Levicorpus).

 

Addition:

Although I agree with Kimichisu (Trello - Levicorpus) that combining two effects can be a lovely & unique characteristic, I still believe that both effects should be similar powerful and that the combination of both creates an even more powerful outcome. And since the sleep debuff is commonly used to have enough time to apply other debuffs, a separation of the original effects or combination of two new debuffs doesn't change the total at all.

 

Instead of:

Levicorpus w\ dam.red. + followed by a Raw Tilt

Imagine:

Levicorpus w\ a Raw Tilt + followed by a separate dam. red. skill

 

If Levicorpus would put the targets to sleep for 10sec and would apply an additional AoE damage reduction debuff (see Raw Tllt) for 10~30sec, the Crecentia would still be encouraged to combine both sides to maximize the skill effect, but it wouldn't hurt that much if a teammate puts the targets out of sleep prematurely or if the target can't be put to sleep.in the first place. And imagine, if an other skill would have an additional effect on sleeping targets (no cast time, more damage, applies or doesn't consume stigma, potential AoE effect, leeching life. etc.). Suddenly, the skill would have plenty new usecases.


Edited by Greven79, 01 February 2016 - 10:44 AM.

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