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#1 SammyFM

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Posted 24 February 2016 - 12:55 PM

Hello everyone,

We are here to discuss the balance of PvP, and help the staff to solve the major issues!

Let’s begin:

Class balance:

  1. How should we work?:

I would suggest to go over the classes one by on, so we don’t end up having a mess in the comment section.

  1. What should we talk about?:

Skills, Chain Combo, „Unfair“ Combos, Skill Cooldowns.

  1. What exactly should we write in our posts?: 

Please giving the reason for the certaintnerfs/buffs.

Suggestions on the PvP system in general(Arena/BSQ):

  1. How should we work?:

Same as for classes, I suggest to discuss one topic at time.

  1. What should we talk about?:

Bugs and glitches in the maps, passive rules (system, like apply handycap, so on).

  1. What exactly should we write in our posts to avoid a mess?: 

Same as for the class discussion.

 

However, let’s don’t talk about elements here. I think ist something completely different.

Feel free to suggest anything on how we should work, but you should do it before we start with  the actual discussion.

 

Which class should we discuss first? Please vote here!


Edited by SammyFM, 24 February 2016 - 12:56 PM.

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#2 5143121023173906760

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Posted 24 February 2016 - 01:06 PM

First part needs to be moved to class discussion.

Also the second part should be a whole new topic, otherwise I think this topic will lead to chaos.

Also, I don't know if now is the right time to talk about this, since this has been talked since years, and we all are aware that there are skills some skills that are still bugged (welcome to all of you especially if you are a wizard !) so we don't know the true balance the game cureently have if these skills were fixed.

In my opinion, I think that X Spammer classes should be discussed after every others classes for some reasons. :)
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#3 SammyFM

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Posted 24 February 2016 - 01:26 PM

First part needs to be moved to class discussion.

Also the second part should be a whole new topic, otherwise I think this topic will lead to chaos.

Also, I don't know if now is the right time to talk about this, since this has been talked since years, and we all are aware that there are skills some skills that are still bugged (welcome to all of you especially if you are a wizard !) so we don't know the true balance the game cureently have if these skills were fixed.

In my opinion, I think that X Spammer classes should be discussed after every others classes for some reasons. :)

 

I asked Dragonlark from the staff before posting this thread in this section, it should be alright.

 

For the second topic I thought to discuss it in the very end. It is still related to the PvP balance somehow.

 

I think, if we can bundle up the buggs in one thread, this will make it much easier for the staff to organise in the future. So when they have fixed the foundations of the code, they can balance PvP faster.

 

You have the right to vote which class you want to discuss first. :p_laugh:

Remembre though, you are not the onlyone. The personal opinion is not the topic of this thread.
 


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#4 StormHaven

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Posted 24 February 2016 - 01:28 PM

1. This is the wrong section.

2. This topic has been brought up at least 8 times in the past few months on multiple topics dedicated to trying to point out the imbalances in pvp.  There really isn't anymore that can be said that the staff/players/etc haven't already said over and over.


Edited by StormHaven, 24 February 2016 - 01:29 PM.

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#5 SammyFM

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Posted 24 February 2016 - 01:30 PM

1. This is the wrong section.

2. This topic has been brought up at least 8 times in the past few months on multiple topics dedicated to trying to point out the imbalances in pvp.

 

1.Feel free to move

2.Link please
 


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#6 Precrush

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Posted 26 February 2016 - 12:28 PM

I do like the idea of going over classes one by one as a community, so I'm just gonna start and see if it catches on!

 

I think we could start with sentinels, they are a class that doesn't really get talked about much. A good place to start when there aren't many people complaining in one way or another! I'm not an expert on this class, so if I'm wrong feel free to point it out.

 

Currently, pvp on sentinels is largely based on shootdown, traps and ms to help with catching with other skills. The archer skills are not that easy to combo together without hitting that freeze trap or netbind. That often means that a catch on sentinels means aas spam. Shootdown is easy to land and hits hard but is hard to combo into anything. That in combination with its low cooldown means it often ends up being a shootdown spam fest. Another remarkable sentinel skill is Tesla Coil, which is good for zoning in group pvp as well as 1v1s.

 

Sentinels are fairly balanced in my opinion. One thing I would do to make them more enjoyable to play with and against is make a few skills cast quicker, basically rocket launcher and arrow shower, so those could be used as possible catching skills or to come up with a combo. Aas has the dmg reduction for normal damage, which would make that a non issue in damage if elements weren't an issue, but even then some sort of a limitation on it would be nice, so you couldn't spam it for quite as long. The silence and bounce trap have op effects that last a bit too long. Hunter skills acid arrow and bleed need to be changed to be useful and perhaps to help give sentinels more of an identity in emporia and bsq.

 

If someone knows about chain combo for archers I'd like to hear about that.

 

I'll just point out a few of my fundamental thoughts when it comes to pvp in this game. I hate spam and lock, and as such think skills should have way longer cooldowns in pvp for all classes. Another, maybe an alternative solution to spam and lock would be a combo breaker for each class. Elements have somewhat ruined pvp and def/atk ratios are pretty bad. I think the rate at which people die should be in a certain window always, so not too fast or not too slow. Our pvp modes in general are pretty bad, other then the most basic death match and last man standing, which is one huge problem for this game in terms of holding players for longer times and giving them a reason to buy IM. I believe class balance to be a very delicate thing that can sometimes be bettered with the most delicate changes, but never perfected. Each class should have something that it's better at than the other ones, but that something can't be too strong. Skills need to definitely be changed to work differently for pvp and pve, hope the team can make that work at some point.

 

So that's my take on sentinels and bit about my view on pvp overall. Now well see if this topic has what it takes to survive despite the immediate backlash :P


Edited by Precrush, 26 February 2016 - 12:30 PM.

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#7 SammyFM

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Posted 26 February 2016 - 03:27 PM

I do like the idea of going over classes one by one as a community, so I'm just gonna start and see if it catches on!

 

I think we could start with sentinels, they are a class that doesn't really get talked about much. A good place to start when there aren't many people complaining in one way or another! I'm not an expert on this class, so if I'm wrong feel free to point it out.

 

Currently, pvp on sentinels is largely based on shootdown, traps and ms to help with catching with other skills. The archer skills are not that easy to combo together without hitting that freeze trap or netbind. That often means that a catch on sentinels means aas spam. Shootdown is easy to land and hits hard but is hard to combo into anything. That in combination with its low cooldown means it often ends up being a shootdown spam fest. Another remarkable sentinel skill is Tesla Coil, which is good for zoning in group pvp as well as 1v1s.

 

Sentinels are fairly balanced in my opinion. One thing I would do to make them more enjoyable to play with and against is make a few skills cast quicker, basically rocket launcher and arrow shower, so those could be used as possible catching skills or to come up with a combo. Aas has the dmg reduction for normal damage, which would make that a non issue in damage if elements weren't an issue, but even then some sort of a limitation on it would be nice, so you couldn't spam it for quite as long. The silence and bounce trap have op effects that last a bit too long. Hunter skills acid arrow and bleed need to be changed to be useful and perhaps to help give sentinels more of an identity in emporia and bsq.

 

If someone knows about chain combo for archers I'd like to hear about that.

 

I'll just point out a few of my fundamental thoughts when it comes to pvp in this game. I hate spam and lock, and as such think skills should have way longer cooldowns in pvp for all classes. Another, maybe an alternative solution to spam and lock would be a combo breaker for each class. Elements have somewhat ruined pvp and def/atk ratios are pretty bad. I think the rate at which people die should be in a certain window always, so not too fast or not too slow. Our pvp modes in general are pretty bad, other then the most basic death match and last man standing, which is one huge problem for this game in terms of holding players for longer times and giving them a reason to buy IM. I believe class balance to be a very delicate thing that can sometimes be bettered with the most delicate changes, but never perfected. Each class should have something that it's better at than the other ones, but that something can't be too strong. Skills need to definitely be changed to work differently for pvp and pve, hope the team can make that work at some point.

 

So that's my take on sentinels and bit about my view on pvp overall. Now well see if this topic has what it takes to survive despite the immediate backlash :P

 

I agree on the most things you mentioned.

 

Sentinels are is not very common. Their kit is full of launch attacks which makes them less effective in team-fights but strong in 1v1.

On a small area the traps are your strongest weapons, on a larger area, falcon frenzy and blitz can be used for capturing.

Most sentinels I see though relay on their traps for the most part, zoning the area and stay close to it.

 

I don't know how much damage the rocket launcher does, but if it's a skill which suppose to have a high damage output, like spark rock and wood rush, the carsting speed is alright. If is used to be a caprure skill, it's defenetly to slow.

 

The silence trap has a 30 sec silence effect. It should be decreased, but in exchange remove buffs:

So it's could be 15 sec  + buff remove (block, speed, attack speed, attack power, diffusion cannon, smart shot, etc.) How is that?

 

For the chain combo: the stun is relly strong and reuseable in very short time. The arrow rain(chain combo) is strong and more effective when chained with shootdown. Also there is an escape/poke and a knockback + knockup.


Edited by SammyFM, 26 February 2016 - 03:31 PM.

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#8 StormHaven

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Posted 26 February 2016 - 05:39 PM

I agree on the most things you mentioned.

 

Sentinels are is not very common. Their kit is full of launch attacks which makes them less effective in team-fights but strong in 1v1.

On a small area the traps are your strongest weapons, on a larger area, falcon frenzy and blitz can be used for capturing.

Most sentinels I see though relay on their traps for the most part, zoning the area and stay close to it.

 

I don't know how much damage the rocket launcher does, but if it's a skill which suppose to have a high damage output, like spark rock and wood rush, the carsting speed is alright. If is used to be a caprure skill, it's defenetly to slow.

 

The silence trap has a 30 sec silence effect. It should be decreased, but in exchange remove buffs:

So it's could be 15 sec  + buff remove (block, speed, attack speed, attack power, diffusion cannon, smart shot, etc.) How is that?

 

For the chain combo: the stun is relly strong and reuseable in very short time. The arrow rain(chain combo) is strong and more effective when chained with shootdown. Also there is an escape/poke and a knockback + knockup.

 

You do realize silence trap is only 10 seconds? But sure go ahead and make it last 15seconds+remove all buffs because that it fantastically over powered. Silence trap was already had one iteration where it stopped chain combos from working and it was completely overpowered since it would completely shutdown every single class with no counter play at all.

 

Sentinels the only changes sentinels need is a long CD on Tesla( +3 seconds) and a longer CD on Shootdown(+3seconds)

As for QoL changes Arrow showers stagger needs to not be cancelable by jumping. It's already an incredibly powerful lock extending skill in group pvp modes.

Rocket is fine the way it is.


Edited by StormHaven, 26 February 2016 - 05:41 PM.

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#9 Precrush

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Posted 26 February 2016 - 11:27 PM

10 secs is a long time to just run away for! I think longer cooldowns and/or shorter durations for both that and the dash/jump block would be fitting. Those effects are both like half stuns if you think about it, so with that logic 10 secs is too long. And according to the wiki you can make it last 18 secs at 5/5. In bsq that takes you out of the game for as long as dying would!

Rocket is just very hard to hit, it could use a faster casting animation to be used more.

I agree with those cd changes, although in my mind like I said pretty much all skills should have longer cooldowns. But certainly in an effort not to have useless skills the three dot effects could use a buff.

What about hallucination and mesmerize, are those good or underpowered now? And claymore, any use for that? If not, a larger range could be something to do.
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#10 SammyFM

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Posted 27 February 2016 - 01:17 AM

You do realize silence trap is only 10 seconds?

 

Are you sure? I feel like i'm disabled for a way longer than that 10 seconds.

Do you have silence trap maxed? We can go and try Ok you'r right, just pvpd a sentinel. It's 10 sec.I mixed it up with the frogg skill from monks


Edited by SammyFM, 27 February 2016 - 04:43 AM.

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#11 StormHaven

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Posted 27 February 2016 - 01:49 PM

10 secs is a long time to just run away for! I think longer cooldowns and/or shorter durations for both that and the dash/jump block would be fitting. Those effects are both like half stuns if you think about it, so with that logic 10 secs is too long. And according to the wiki you can make it last 18 secs at 5/5. In bsq that takes you out of the game for as long as dying would!

Rocket is just very hard to hit, it could use a faster casting animation to be used more.

I agree with those cd changes, although in my mind like I said pretty much all skills should have longer cooldowns. But certainly in an effort not to have useless skills the three dot effects could use a buff.

What about hallucination and mesmerize, are those good or underpowered now? And claymore, any use for that? If not, a larger range could be something to do.

 

Rocket isn't hard to it. It has Hit Scan just like Arrow Shower,Wolf Rush,Falcon Frenzy, Blitz as long as the target is in it's range when it's cast they'll be hit and launched. The slower animation just means the launch is delayed which for some people is good vs certain classes as it can interrupt them.

 

As long as evade is nerfed Hallucination is useless before it was decent. Mesmerize has always been useless since it can only trigger if you get hit while in Hallucination which kinda defeats the point of Hallu.

 

Claymore used to be semi useful when you could place 8 of them down at once and set them all off. But compared to other traps it's going to useless.


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#12 Precrush

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Posted 09 March 2016 - 12:04 PM

Alright, think it's been long enough to determine that no-one has anything to say on sentinels. I think it's natural to move on to destroyers from that.

 

Obviously, the archer skill tree is the same for both of these, only thing to really note there is Shootdown again, longer cooldown on that should do. And maybe adjusting the hitbox, it does seem quite big compared to the animation, but that might just be me. Only useless(ish) skill on that tree is Bow Mastery, it could use a small buff or maybe a change to be % based. It's meant to be a skill to boost damage in the early game though, so it can't be too powerful.

 

In terms of the destroyer line skills, I think the class is fairly balanced with no major issues. In terms of skills that aren't very strong and could use a buff, I think Carpet Bombing could have a faster cast, that one at least is very hard to hit, and when you do hit it, gives very little reward for it. Other then that, there's a few dots in there that are useless again, fire grenade, Caused (should it be cursed?) bomber, and N2 Ammunition Strengthen all have basically useless dots. And afaik, Accelerator Tuning is the only other useless passive there.

 

Aerial flurry is one skill that I think is just badly designed, especially with Shootdown around. Dunno how to make that work better though, any ideas?

 

One interesting thing we get to with Destroyers are skills that are blocked in pvp. As I understand the team here want's to be able to nerf skills in PvP only, so that these skills could be unblocked. Well, in the case of destroyers blocked skill, Camouflage, there's many ways to balance this (and other hiding skills to that matter). First thing is a long cooldown of say 2-3 minutes, that has to happen. Then there's 2 options I see: either make the duration be a bit shorter, or have the skill drain a whole lot of mana while active. Hiding skills are an interesting thing that one can use to their advantage for example to ambush people in group pvp modes, think they would bring an appealing tactical element.

 

As I said, I think destroyers are quite balanced in pvp and pve, so they don't really need any major changes in my mind. As always, I can't really say anything about the chain combo, but I don't think there's a problem there either on this class.

 


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