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Chain Combo Nerf


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#1 flubsy

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Posted 27 February 2016 - 01:21 PM

Get rid of flinch and super armor.

 

That way you can't perma "stun" people with "x" spam.

 

This won't drastically change PvE and X spamming will kill mobs easily.

Getting rid of flinch and super armor does not get rid of stun or knock downs, so chain combos in general will not be affect and the abuse of super armor flinch will be lessened. 

 


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#2 Popcorn

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Posted 27 February 2016 - 01:28 PM

Hello,

 

I already told you by PM that we will look into the flinch effect for the base attacks (chain combo), but only for PvP.

In PvE removing the flinch effect is not wanted.

 

We can also look into the Super Armor effect in PvP. But both is nothing that can be done in 5 minutes. Even if it would not be only for PvP.  I already looked over the code to find a fast solution, but the chain combo stuff is an essential part of the whole coding. In easy words: It's complex.

 

Also I want to read other opinions before we do changes flinch- and super armor wise (in PvP). In PvE it won't be changed.

 


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#3 flubsy

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Posted 27 February 2016 - 03:38 PM

I understand, I just posted it here since it seems to be the trend to suggest game changes here.


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#4 Usolando

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Posted 01 March 2016 - 03:21 AM

As far as I can tell, removing the super-armor from chain combos would cripple Sorcerers, which then would have no way left to resist an attack. This would make them prone to being shot at like rabbits by Archers more than anything else I believe, since none of their spells gives them super-armor.


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#5 Precrush

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Posted 01 March 2016 - 11:47 AM

Doesn't getting rid of both flinch and super armor mean it's going to be really hard to get those stuns off? You'd basically have to charge it up out of screen or something and hope that you can land the stun. I'm not sure if this would be the case but as far as I know it's not the first few hits that stun, and with out neither of this effects I think it could be really hard to reach that stun. So maybe removing one would do? Or having some sort of cooldown?

 

I could be talking complete bs though, I've never really used chain combos.


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#6 flubsy

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Posted 01 March 2016 - 12:09 PM

Considering many players abuse the super armor by getting ridiculous atkspd and just z spamming, doesn't seem like a sorc is supposed to be played with 1 button and no skills.

 

I suppose the alternative is having the first hit of chain combo not cause flinch, either way, usually the stun combo is used after you've already stunned or knocked down with a skill. 

 

Archer, stuns after someone is hit by trap usually, Warrior class (paladin,myrmidon) usually after an xcut or stumble catch, Summoner, the first hit doesn't do anything anyways, Thief class has no stun

 

The value invokers and sorcerers get from super armor flinch outweighs any benefit other classes have as it's abused from animation canceling the first "x" or "z".

 

I think it's a bit ridiculous that 1 invoke or sorc is just z/x spamming with 5-6 archer/warriors doing all their launch skills without the mage moving an inch.

 

I think if sorc being nerfed is a problem, there just needs to be a buff suggestion that can counter it.  Overall I feel that sorcerers are still good in group pvp/bsq as they are the main crowd controller, and once someone is frozen, it's highly unlikely they will escape.  If 1v1 pvp is of concern, a buff can be introduced to another skill of theirs.

 

I find it a bit cumbersome that the only way to counter an x/z spamming mage is just build atkspd and x/z spam yourself as a warrior or just run away the whole time.  Archer is just pretty much run or hope you can stun with chain combo before you die from x/z spam.  Even if you hit them as an archer, they won't launch as their super armor will continue to stay.  Twin is out xspam.  Ninja's and Rogues is run way and hope Rocket hits.

 

Summoners can out dps an invoker anyways so it's not that big of a deal.  

 

I can go into further detail about why this would change the meta from building atkspd to other skills.  I'm not saying this should be the only change, but it should be a change.  This doesn't change knockdown from chain combo as well.  There should also be buffs and additional changes to skills overall as well.  

 

 

I also believe in order to balance a game, you can't expect PvE to not get nerfed in some way when PvP gets nerfed.  Can't expect only benefits to happen.  Also it might be interesting to see the gameplay styles to change as well as PvE has been stagnant for a very long time, and to be honest, PvP as well.

 

Certain PvP skills on classes were gotten rid of as well, which I really don't see the point.  They basically didn't want to deal with nerf/buffing skills so they just got rid of it in PvP in general which makes it a pointless skill in the game.  I also find that annoying.  There would be a lot of classes I would buff/nerf with no restrictions in PvP to bring it close to chapter 1 PvP where all classes were decently even and strong.  Not saying this is the only nerf/buff I want.  If anything, I'd do a whole post on what skills should be buffed/nerfed in order to even out all the classes better and introduce possibly new styles of play in PvP and PvE.  As just nerfing one class or buffing one class doesn't work in a game with multiple classes.  There needs to be a tradeoff in general as checks and balances.  

 

I found this was the problem with the previous chapters, they only buffed a class or nerfed a class without thinking of the consequences of what would happen to the other classes.  

 

Anyways just my two cents.  I just think, this change would have the biggest impact on gameplay overall, which would bring about a better rethinking of skills of all the classes.


Edited by flubsy, 01 March 2016 - 12:21 PM.

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#7 Kristof3195

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Posted 01 March 2016 - 01:06 PM

Get rid of flinch and super armor.

 

That way you can't perma "stun" people with "x" spam.

 

This won't drastically change PvE and X spamming will kill mobs easily.

Getting rid of flinch and super armor does not get rid of stun or knock downs, so chain combos in general will not be affect and the abuse of super armor flinch will be lessened. 

If you remove flinch on warlocks Z I demand a XXZ stun like most of the classes . D:

That would kill the chance to do at least something in a 1v1 as a warlock. ( and 1v1s are sometimes in EW not only in pvp room ) 

After flinch would have been removed, there is no litteraly no chance to catch anybody as a warlock. 

And there is no " Train harder and you will be able to catch somebody" thingy because the only thing that can help you catch would be if someone is simpleminded enough to lay his foot in a circle on the ground or a realy slow emblem or a realy realy slow penguin.

 

- My opinion as a not attackspeed stacking warlock.


Edited by Kristof3195, 01 March 2016 - 01:17 PM.

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#8 flubsy

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Posted 01 March 2016 - 01:19 PM

read my most recent post.


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#9 Kristof3195

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Posted 01 March 2016 - 01:47 PM

read my most recent post.

Didnt saw it :P . Still I think chain combo changes would have a large impact in the world of pvp I would say it almost as much as elements change ( dont want to bring up that topic so dont post any flame and stuff about it please its just to compare it ) 

Thinking about goons relaying on their pushback for xxz , or xxxxz stun if that would had no pushback it would again be of no use ( not mentioning that the char moves forward while making those attacks so you would hit most likely nothing when doing the longer chain stun ) 


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#10 flubsy

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Posted 01 March 2016 - 03:19 PM

Yes but overall the nerf would be positive than negative.  

 

Also for a goon, the xxz, the sword range is big enough that it will still hit the two x's.  The xxxxz stun is better used or more often than not used as a pseudo stumblebum, rather than the knock back. 

 

To put in perspective, it would bring some god tier classes down to a more reasonable level.  I'm ok with that.  What I'm trying to say is, it nerfs everyone.  But it nerfs some classes in a bigger way than others, which also, buffs these match ups so it's not one sided.  

 

If you notice a trend with the God Tier classes, it's that they can x/z spam their way to oblivion compared to everyone else and it's a matter of who can out x/z spam vs another class.  Classes like ninja, sorc, etc... get left in the dust.  Sure it might nerf the sorc, but will it be any better compared to other classes on the tier list than it was before?  No, it's still arguably one of the worst 1v1 classes either way.    Chain combo or not, it's still a good class for team pvp, overall crowd control, and mass mob killings.

 

 


Edited by flubsy, 01 March 2016 - 04:35 PM.

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#11 StormHaven

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Posted 01 March 2016 - 05:18 PM

Yes but overall the nerf would be positive than negative.  

 

Also for a goon, the xxz, the sword range is big enough that it will still hit the two x's.  The xxxxz stun is better used or more often than not used as a pseudo stumblebum, rather than the knock back. 

 

To put in perspective, it would bring some god tier classes down to a more reasonable level.  I'm ok with that.  What I'm trying to say is, it nerfs everyone.  But it nerfs some classes in a bigger way than others, which also, buffs these match ups so it's not one sided.  

 

If you notice a trend with the God Tier classes, it's that they can x/z spam their way to oblivion compared to everyone else and it's a matter of who can out x/z spam vs another class.  Classes like ninja, sorc, etc... get left in the dust.  Sure it might nerf the sorc, but will it be any better compared to other classes on the tier list than it was before?  No, it's still arguably one of the worst 1v1 classes either way.    Chain combo or not, it's still a good class for team pvp, overall crowd control, and mass mob killings.

 

Removing flinch/super armour from chain combos won't do jackcrap to X spammers, you'll still die in the same amount of time with no real way to react. Think about it this way do you reaaaally think a Summoner needs to flinch you to 100-0 you before you even touch them or an Invoker needs to flinch you when they can just cc and then X spam you? the only class that would feel the effects of flinch removal is Sorcs who don't even require to have it since they performed the same before it even existed.

 

The infinite stunlocking exists because DS has no built in CC resistence(such as being stunned X times within X seconds results 100%-30%-0% effectiveness)


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#12 flubsy

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Posted 01 March 2016 - 06:49 PM

What you are complaining about is damage from elements, which is a separate issue.

 

If you play with no elements and just normal gears only (even with some element with decent resist), x spam will not kill you, but people without enough mspd will not be able to escape from flinch stun.

 

If flinch did not exist, any class would be able to stun while they blast away and taking maybe 25% hlt.  Which in turn can lead to a combo that does something equal or more.


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#13 Agitodesu

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Posted 01 March 2016 - 07:14 PM

End game 99% of the damage comes from default attack + crits.


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#14 flubsy

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Posted 01 March 2016 - 07:54 PM

I believe fully stacked vs fully stacked, it takes around 10-30 seconds give or take 5 end-game to kill in 1 stream. 

 

Walking out of flinch or attacking would help.  As there wouldn't be anymore super armor with this suggestion.


Edited by flubsy, 01 March 2016 - 07:55 PM.

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#15 alliebrown

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Posted 30 March 2016 - 09:51 PM

I understand, I just posted it here since it seems to be the trend to suggest game changes here.

 


Edited by Dragonlark, 11 April 2016 - 07:02 AM.

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#16 falcoford

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Posted 10 April 2016 - 01:39 PM

This would be pretty good for balance. Other classes could come in and not get flinched and be able to stun them or launch.
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