43 replies to this topic

[adventuretimer]

so yea i wanna start a discussion about the topic,

 

just short story i pvped one today lv 64 im lv 83 she could one combo me if she want and i was sitting infront of my screen beeing able to do nothing )

 

so my suggestions:

 

- nerf power fist stun duration and the way it works with atk speed

- lower the duration of the twin block cuz the twin i fought used twin block and after that charged ghost fighter and i wasnt even able to stop her from charging so i think this one is fair enough 

- weaving: instead of blocking after the dash start the duration of the block at the begining of the cast 

- At light speed: higher the cooldown for this ability i mean they can run at "light speed" almost 24/7 also i mean comon 3/3 and its maxed and gives more then adrenaline for destis which gives 35% at 5/5

- also maybe some of the twin spells should flinch the "main" for like 0,1 sec cuz u can kite with 1hp and wont get hit while killing the enemy but maybe it would kill the smooth way of the twin fighter

- infinite kicking: in my oppinion its the better bear from an overlord -> more dmg, more kicks = meh

- ghost fighter: i dont know the range where u can dash to ur opponent but i tryed to out run it 416 ms and i got hit everytime so if there is one lower it (its similar to "Swift Attack" which has a range) also maybe just     flinch the enemy and not stun them 5 times in a row so they cant dodge ur next power fist - i stood there unable to do anything for about 3-4 sec 

 

well thats all from my side i hope we can get a decent discussion out of this

 

(im sorry for any typing errors  )

[Kristof3195]

so yea i wanna start a discussion about the topic,

 

just short story i pvped one today lv 64 im lv 83 she could one combo me if she want and i was sitting infront of my screen beeing able to do nothing )

 

so my suggestions:

 

- nerf power fist stun duration and the way it works with atk speed

- lower the duration of the twin block cuz the twin i fought used twin block and after that charged ghost fighter and i wasnt even able to stop her from charging so i think this one is fair enough 

- weaving: instead of blocking after the dash start the duration of the block at the begining of the cast 

- At light speed: higher the cooldown for this ability i mean they can run at "light speed" almost 24/7 also i mean comon 3/3 and its maxed and gives more then adrenaline for destis which gives 35% at 5/5

- also maybe some of the twin spells should flinch the "main" for like 0,1 sec cuz u can kite with 1hp and wont get hit while killing the enemy but maybe it would kill the smooth way of the twin fighter

- infinite kicking: in my oppinion its the better bear from an overlord -> more dmg, more kicks = meh

- ghost fighter: i dont know the range where u can dash to ur opponent but i tryed to out run it 416 ms and i got hit everytime so if there is one lower it (its similar to "Swift Attack" which has a range) also maybe just     flinch the enemy and not stun them 5 times in a row so they cant dodge ur next power fist - i stood there unable to do anything for about 3-4 sec 

 

well thats all from my side i hope we can get a decent discussion out of this

 

(im sorry for any typing errors  )

Everything fine here except the Ghost fighter . Im fine with that spell it works when he starts to cast it in your range you can run where everyou want it will hit you if he casts it away from you its not gonna hit. And the cast time is long enough to counter it with what ever spell your class has. Against my locky when a twin uses ghost fighter thats their instant doom they just GF into a blizzard

 

- Adding one more nerf option to be done something with the invincible twin brother there must be a punishment like 10% damage the twin brother takes will be transfered to the main character.

[adventuretimer]

yea thats nice if some dmg gets transfered!

 

what i mean with the ghost fighter is that the twin shild will be used before charging ghost fighter leaving you no chance to atk them and stopping them 

 

 

[Kristof3195]

yea thats nice if some dmg gets transfered!

 

what i mean with the ghost fighter is that the twin shild will be used before charging ghost fighter leaving you no chance to atk them and stopping them 

Thats actualy not even close to true. The shield can be bypassed by invokers barbarian , stumblebum from overlord , and when he casts it summoners just need to x spam, archers jump up and shotdown, savages moonwalk and bla bla bla bla bla every class got a counter against that spell its just about training it

Edited by Kristof3195, 02 April 2016 - 10:40 AM.

[flubsy]

this should be in the game balances thread.

[Agitodesu]

Twins are fine if you know how to fight against them. They have already been nerfed and isn't seen as often in high tier pvp.

[Turpi]

Ye if im right twins weaving is blocked from pvp or? 

 

I dont see any problem with twins beside the abnormal power fist range..

 

Well ghostfighter is an ugly skill with incredible low cd. Its hard to counter it tho.. never played against a twin after that update, but normally they cast this yellow foam before using ghostfighter. 

 

For thieve use:

 

hypnotize

 

claw fishing

 

 

Archer: 

 

flashbang

 

wire action

 

 

Warrior:

 

stumble

 

(dat shield dash/stun skill)

 

 

Magican:

 

barb

 

timefreeze or cast fire emblem + blizzard and hide in it

 

 

Summ:

 

idk, hide in mobs?

 

 

This will cancel GhostFighter and stun the twins.

 

Edited by Turpi, 02 April 2016 - 04:16 PM.

[adventuretimer]

yea u say its so easy to counter them when they run arond with 500 ms constantly just go ahead and hit them with a flashbang which is gonna lag walk them somewhere else

 

and about every class got a counter summ is the only counter for a summ 

and that twins are fine by now means they cant solo emporia right.. oh wait c:

[Precrush]

Well that empo solo is more down to how emporia works than anything else, but then again I think every class in the game can be balanced and versified with skill changes.

Tbh honest I don't really know a lot about the twin arsenal. I do know from playing against them though that some of the hit boxes on it don't match the visuals. One thing I want to point out is that one class having a better version of a skill than another isn't alone a reason for changes.

Edited by Precrush, 02 April 2016 - 11:24 PM.

[Elijazz]

twin has been already nerfed and I can say that you can kill them easily compared before where they can use both weave in pvp. No point in nerfing twin.

[adventuretimer]

well as i said these where just suggestions and if u say dont nerf them atleast show some points cuz "they already got nerfed no reason to do it again" is meh.

 

pvp is about skill and i want that twin needs more skill then it actually does right now cuz thats what balancing means i dont wanna kill the class with those suggestions just make its bit more difficult cuz all i saw was using ghost fighter as the main engage tool 

[Turpi]

yea u say its so easy to counter them when they run arond with 500 ms constantly just go ahead and hit them with a flashbang which is gonna lag walk them somewhere else

 

and about every class got a counter summ is the only counter for a summ 

and that twins are fine by now means they cant solo emporia right.. oh wait c:

 

they wont lagwalk coz they arent moving while casting ghost fighter. and im still in support to remove the flash effect through a stun effect for less lagwalk problems.

 

summy is so ezpz to counter, but as good as always an extreme boring match coz:

 

they will hide  in mobs and spam smartshot.

they will cast DK and you have to run 45 sec.

u have to wait until they are looking for you.

 

If its a same gear fight you can just roll through the smartshot as archer class, then stun them and do ur combo.

 

as a mage u have enough skills to keep up with them anyways.

 

thieves have to wait for a good rocket punch/sleep/clawfishing/that nutman

 

 

 

Well and i really dont know why everyone is so upset that a twin won solo EW.

 

Everyclass can do this. With a ninja/sentinel you will even reach faster 100p than with twin.

 

And my friend who plays Sentinel was able to beat every twin before the nerf, since to well placed wolf and falcon catches or net bind trolls. And the twin he played against was 1 of the 4 stronges/best.

 

RIP Strato

 

 

Just keep ur distance in a twin 1o1. They only got horizontal catches (beside ghost fighter) and are bad in the air.

 

And since they lost 1 weaving?! (am i right or wrong?) it should be way more easy to win against them now if u arent playing Warrior or Warlock.

[Precrush]

I'm just upset that anyone can solo empo...

[Kristof3195]

There is just 1 simpleminded minor fix to it without putting realy much effort into remaking whole empo 

And here it is :

 

WHEN STUNED,FROZEN,FLINCHED ETZ.. CANT PORT TO ANOTHER ISLAND.

 

that was so hard to figured out wew.

[Turpi]

Give that man a cookie

[Vossel]

There is just 1 simpleminded minor fix to it without putting realy much effort into remaking whole empo 

And here it is :

 

WHEN STUNED,FROZEN,FLINCHED ETZ.. CANT PORT TO ANOTHER ISLAND.

 

that was so hard to figured out wew.

well, that's simply how EW works. Switching island during freeze etc is the tactic to not die, your goal is to reach 100 points there is no need to kill the enemy for sure you just need to complete enough quests.

Besides there is a cooldown for the switch, so if you watch the islands all time you can switch with him and your cooldown will only have like 1 sek delay to his.

[Vossel]

Ye if im right twins weaving is blocked from pvp or? 

 

I dont see any problem with twins beside the abnormal power fist range..

 

Well ghostfighter is an ugly skill with incredible low cd. Its hard to counter it tho.. never played against a twin after that update, but normally they cast this yellow foam before using ghostfighter. 

 

Warrior:

 

stumble

it is not as easy as it sound to cancel a twin's ghost fighter with stumblebum since stumblebum got a cast time as well and never forget the delay.

 

 

btw Kristof3195

"- Adding one more nerf option to be done something with the invincible twin brother there must be a punishment like 10% damage the twin brother takes will be transfered to the main character."

bad idea, really bad idea. cuz if you catch the main once he will recieve the dmg you deal to him and additional the damage you deal to the twin and that would be unfair

Edited by Vossel, 03 April 2016 - 04:38 AM.

[Precrush]

When there's a topic about empo no one wants to talk about it, but then when there's a topic that barely relates that's when people have opinions!

 

I don't think there should be dmg transferred either since the twin always trails behind a bit, which effectively gives the opponent 2 targets.

Edited by Precrush, 03 April 2016 - 05:41 AM.

[adventuretimer]

remember that balancing means that all classes need skill to play and right now summs and twins dont need it that much i played twin and i can confirm it that twin is way to easy to play then other classes like i said i dont wanna kill the class ^^

[Precrush]

Balancing doesn't mean things are of the same difficulty to play/use/gather, be it classes, skills or items. "Requiring skill" is way too vague way of defining anything. Balancing simply means that for example classes are as close in power as they can be. Easy example of this is cleric in pve, where it'll always be an easy class to play because of it's mechanics compared to say sentinel. For these 2 classes to be balanced between each other clerics don't need a more complex set of skills or strategies, they just need to be as effective as sentinels.

 

 

[Precrush]

The main problem I feel is that since it's so hard to find balanced matches, not to even mention balanced ones gearwise, it's incredibly hard to get an overall feel on the balance. 1v1 twins are a strong class though, that can't be denied, but it's pretty much impossible to say where they stand for sure with such a small sample size, no reliable data, only going by the feelings of individual players.

 

I doubt the amount of players on the class tells a lot though. Firstly it's no summoner, secondly it's a drakan, and human classes have just traditionally been way more popular. Summoner got popular only for having at least 1.5x the damage of the next best class. There's the sample size issue, there's not enough of pvp players to tell the full story (again, freaking shame, this game could shine there). And it's not like you can just hop on a class in mmos, you gotta lvl and gear it and so on. So many people don't bother creating a new character of the class they perceive as being strong, they play their class until they eventually quit. So considering all of that, while the number of players certainly can be used to draw some conclusions, I don't think it's a strong basis.

 

[Precrush]

I agree on everything except your confidence in your tests and in the knowledge you've gained from playing. I just believe it to be impossible to reach the accuracy needed with this player base and these systems to make absolute calls, especially on individual skills. Nothing personal against you, it's just my view on these things. I think the best way to reach a better balance (when we are at a change making point in time) is to trough a combination of this partial knowledge we have and then just trial and error, doing changes often. 

 

Edited by Precrush, 03 April 2016 - 11:44 AM.

[StormHaven]

With the most blunt way to put it, Fighters are the pubstompers of DS. While they are strong in 1v1 and Group pvp situtations a player(s) of equal skill or greater skill will now beat them more consistently.

[Bustincaps]

With the most blunt way to put it, Fighters are the pubstompers of DS. While they are strong in 1v1 and Group pvp situtations a player(s) of equal skill or greater skill will now beat them more consistently.

 

Beating them more consistently because of what? Them being LESS gamebreaking than before? "Less gamebreaking" is not what the community discussing this topic is looking for; they're looking for "balanced". And why does every thread regarding how overpowered a class is get instantly labeled as a complaining thread? The op is not a QQer, and doesn't deserve to be labeled one. We are all aware of the imbalances and strength differences between classes like Twin, Invoker, and Summoner in comparison to the typical class. The op is not complaining just because they are attempting to discuss these imbalances and brainstorm ways to make them more balanced. Anyone here trying to act like the Twin isn't imbalanced either most likely mains the class or is feeding their ego by defending the class and trying to sound like a pro with their "Twin isn't hard to beat" comments. I don't care if you're a revolutionary player that never loses a PvP match, even on a lvl 1 char vs. an 85 cap Summoner with stacked gear. Anyone can notice the balancing issues here... pro or not.

 

When you guys can start admitting to this and humbling yourselves is when this conversation will actually be productive.

[flubsy]

the callout is real