Lower scaling for bonus stats in Battlesquare (open PvP). - Game Balances - WarpPortal Community Forums

Jump to content


Photo

Lower scaling for bonus stats in Battlesquare (open PvP).


  • Please log in to reply
13 replies to this topic

#1 OokamiNeko

OokamiNeko

    I made it Off Topic

  • Banned
  • 34 posts
  • Playing:Nothing
  • Server:n/a

Posted 11 April 2016 - 03:06 AM

Why ?
 
As it stands, Battlesquare needs some kind of change in order to be accessible to first characters, and in general to players who aren't willing to put 200+ USD and countless hours of grind into a game only to unlock one, flawed PvP feature, and to be more often than not bound to follow some hyper-geared player and be crushed by another one of such kind. Yet simply removing all benefits gained from gearing up will make more than one's hair stand on end, which is what this suggestion is trying to cope with.
 
This is more or less witnessed in Battlesquare levels lower than 81, so think about this suggestion as a way to make things better for players with characters lower than 81.
You may refer to this topic for additional ideas and opinions.
 
 
How ?
 
Since people want to keep their gear, why not make optimization a thing, as in real optimization instead of throwing out the window any kind of chance for a new user ? As in : total stats = base stats + X% additional / bonus stats, with X being something around 10~20, for Atk / Matk / Def / Mdef / Hlt / Int / Agi / Str, a higher percentage on attack and movement speeds, maybe 70% and 50% respectively, as well as Critical damage with yet another percentage. Critical rate and element attack, as well as element resistance, would stay untouched, as their values already would decrease thanks to respectively lower Agi and critical rate bonuses from gear, Atk / Matk, and Def / Mdef.
 
Base stats include those from skills, such as Archer's passive movement speed, Gladiator's passive Atk skills (those calculated using total stats would then use base + X% bonus instead), base Atk / Matk / Def / Mdef of gear parts, and additional / bonus stats include set and gear part effects, enchantments (including increase in base attack), soulcrafts (same as enchantments), socket cards (skill levels being an exception), premium outfits (same as socket cards) etc. People would have their edge, yet it wouldn't be absurdly difficult to overcome for someone who actually has talent and skill but prefers leveling up rather than grinding in order to play open PvP.
 
 
What would it bring ?
 
It'd decrease requirements by a lot, yet it would let older and / or richer players feel like their time and / or money weren't spent for naught. Overall balance of classes would still be an issue although attack-speed-reliant classes would be significantly weaker (from 350% to 275% AS with a 70% multiplier), but this topic didn't aim at bringing a solution to this problem from the start. I believe 500+ movespeed runners wouldn't be crippled while still way faster than many (from 500 to 325 for a non-Archer class, with the average player from 300 to 225 and dashing for ~380, and from 500 to 390 for an Archer [ passive + class active skill ] ), and it would add more flexibility to their gameplay rather than this simple "you can't catch me" feeling. Less attack speed would have players more prone to think about ways to use their basic attacks as an additional source of damage rather than the only thing needed to win, and as a result it should have spell-reliant classes feel a bit more useful.
 
It would emphasize class specializations (i.e : why you, as a new player, choose a given class rather than another one ; Archers for swift movements, Gladiators for high Atk etc.) and actually let you feel like you indeed chose a class very distinct from the other ones, as well as allow balance changes on skills to have a direct and tangible effect on everyone. For example, a 20% decrease in the damage of let's say Shootdown would be seen by weaker players also, since they supposedly wouldn't be one-shot-killed however many buffs they have. An increase in the percentage of damage mitigated by a Spell shield by 30% of current amount would indeed let Warlocks feel like they can withstand more hits since their opponents wouldn't have tremendous amounts of element attack anymore.
 
 
I feel like it's a better idea than simply removing benefits gained from gearing up, because it's a compromise between what is desired by each of the two parties we get to talk about. Without giving too many details about how math works, the higher stats you have, the more difficult it is to increase them ; this solution would decrease the gap between those who put reasonable efforts into gearing up and those who put some more, while still giving the latter an advantage over the previous.
People with middle-to-low gear would have at least a chance to feel useful since everyone would have stats relatively close to theirs (not too close of course, but reasonably so : no hyper-geared dude would have 5 times as many hitpoints as a newbie), and players with middle-to-high gear would be able to compete easily with the supercharged ones, provided they are at least as good, in terms of skill and initiative, as said supercharged players. With equivalent levels of skill, the older / richer one wins, yet a semi-new player can best them in terms of gameplay, and win.
 
 
 
Let's look into stats balance more thoroughly. Note that everything here isn't absolute, but relative to other classes : stating that Archers move faster is saying that they generally will have higher movement speed than other classes.
 

Dragonkin : since they were made to be overpowered, I believe this topic won't be enough to discuss about ways to lower their potential

  • Summoners keep their high Hlt / MATK / AS thanks to their passive skills (ugh). Lower Critical rate and Critical damage ;
  • Twin Fighters keep their burst of very high movement speed (might be a problem, need to check in game) ;

 

Warriors : higher HP thanks to high base stats (too bad Strength isn't that useful, but it can always be changed)

  • Knights have higher survivability since their HP and DEF passive skills are relatively stronger (1.000 HP mean more for lower max HP) ;
  • Gladiators have relatively higher HP and ATK (for the same reason) ;

 

Archers : higher movement speed, thus more flexibility, and more Critical rate thanks to their high base Agility

  • Sentinels have more CD thanks to their spells, and their movement speed allows them to be more efficient in dropping electric doom and various other things onto their opponents ;
  • Destroyers have more Attack speed and high burst of damage thanks to Adrenalin and Crux shot ;

 

Magicians : higher Mdef, but that's about it as far as base class advantages go. Maybe it's useful against Summoners

  • Sorcerers have less hitpoints since their base Health isn't that high, but they still have a heal and finally can make use of their high Mdef and Mana shield to effectively increase their survivability (element damage being lower) ;
  • Invokers are more easily killed (at least they should) since their heals are based on their max hitpoints, and those are reduced along with their Def (they still have invincibility spells for critical situations) ;

 

Thieves : higher Critical rate and overall stats thanks to their party buffs (might need a change to work on final stats rather than base ones), powerful team Attack speed buff

  • Savages keep their superarmor everywhere, and are given a number of powerful stats party buffs since total stats are lower. Sort of higher Defense and Attack thanks to passive skills ;
  • Ninjas have way higher movement speed (shouldn't be a problem since they're kinda weak right now).

 

I believe that sounds good enough, except for Summoners and Twins who don't lose much of their power even though they're deemed overpowered by a number of players.

 

 

I'd like to hear your suggestions, remarks, ideas about this. If you're able to gather enough strength to read this, please do comment ! I believe that such changes would be for the better, but I may not have all the elements in hand to decide. Let's make things better for everyone.


Edited by OokamiNeko, 11 April 2016 - 03:19 AM.

  • 0

#2 Precrush

Precrush

    Too Legit To Quit

  • Members
  • 1650 posts
  • Playing:Dragon Saga

Posted 11 April 2016 - 06:53 AM

I like this way more then flat out fixed stats. The % of extra stats really should depend on how much of base stats a character would have, but somewhere in the range of 10-30% sounds about right.

Problems for this are pretty much all of the same ones the fixed stat thing would have.

I say half the amount of bsq's we have now, and have 2 of those have this kind of thing, with full gear ones giving better rewards.
  • 0

#3 Merciful

Merciful

    I made it Off Topic

  • Members
  • 23 posts
  • Playing:Nothing

Posted 28 April 2016 - 07:51 AM

sounds cool enough, but y'know, people don't care

 

can't see how it would cause any same problem as flat stats would, since people would be happy with their super-wreckage-potential (read : "pro skill") after they spent their school year or their money on a character

and happiness makes people spend, so everything is fine


  • 0

#4 Precrush

Precrush

    Too Legit To Quit

  • Members
  • 1650 posts
  • Playing:Dragon Saga

Posted 28 April 2016 - 08:08 AM

The problem is it still makes getting better gear less desirable. It's the same problem, just on a smaller scale.

 

It's sad people don't care about these pvp things too much. Not surprising tho, with the pvp side of the game being pretty much neglected for the whole lifespan of them game. There has been updates, but at least I feel like they didn't go in the right directions and many of the modes are just so badly designed. I'm sure that has taxed the pvper population a lot over the years.


  • 0

#5 Merciful

Merciful

    I made it Off Topic

  • Members
  • 23 posts
  • Playing:Nothing

Posted 28 April 2016 - 10:33 AM

better gear shouldn't exist in the first place, this kind of improvement is only meant to let the stupid keep what they shouldn't have had in the first place

remember ragged ghost ? i'm all for a complete removal of gained stats, but some imbeciles think that gears are a part of skill. like, i'm skilled because i paid, sure man, go ahead

 

pvp is broken and this thread is about fixing it the way-too-nice way, so i wonder why no one actually comments here. maybe it's because they banned the opener, but can't tell for sure

edit : or maybe it's because they don't want it to change, lol

 

prolly they can't change anything about pvp and that's why the staff is absent from the few threads about this. "maybe in a few years"


Edited by Merciful, 28 April 2016 - 10:34 AM.

  • 0

#6 Precrush

Precrush

    Too Legit To Quit

  • Members
  • 1650 posts
  • Playing:Dragon Saga

Posted 28 April 2016 - 11:41 AM

Of course better gear should exist, what are you talking about! Gotta get paid^^. I'm all for a mode where stats are fixed, I don't think bsq should be that place tho.


  • 0

#7 Merciful

Merciful

    I made it Off Topic

  • Members
  • 23 posts
  • Playing:Nothing

Posted 28 April 2016 - 03:21 PM

correction : "better gear in pvp open to any and every player shouldn't exist" my bad, not writing all the things i should

 

when you put aside your own interest and have an objective point of view, you see that it's just wrong for the elders to have bigger guns. it's not like they need it since they're supposed to be more skilled, give the big guns to the beginners

 

also with souls at 1:0.8 and IM at 1:10, there's just no way you can cope with this -snip- without spending the time you should use to something actually useful. like reading, sleeping, studying, looking for a job

not that i care about what people do with their free time, kryos 16/24 is funny

 

Please do not use phrases that are ill mannered, attempting to bypass this rule by changing one word in such a phrase is still not allowed. 


  • 0

#8 5143121023173906760

5143121023173906760

    Too Legit To Quit

  • Members
  • 1508 posts
  • Playing:Dragon Saga
  • Server:Sounds obvious !

Posted 28 April 2016 - 08:49 PM

The actual funny fact is that you guys think about gears like we were on a FPS or anything where gears shouldn't be the main part of a character.
But let's be honnest, this game is a MMORPG, there are different classes, gearing, stats and skill attribution. So there will be always something that will look unfair. And trying to make the game fair by such ways as removing completely equipement system and giving the same equipement to everyone will not solve anything, except that more players leaving that game.

The whole part of a RPG is to farm or kill big things in order to get good gears / stats. If you aren't ok with that rule, then don't ever play a RPG, seriously.

I have to say, even if souls are at 1:0.08 there is something that you don't realiqe either : Without Silver Gasha Coins, the price would be at least 1:0.20 or higher. And guess what ? People still managed to upgrade their stuff on Webzen servers.
Besides, that's not because price of souls is expensive that people don't have souls. What I mean from that is that most of the people who get souls from Gasha Coins keep their souls for themselve. And if you farm all by yourself you don't need to buy any souls in the market.

I agree that IM 1:10 is being quite expensive, it almost feel like we're getting closer to the P2W situation that had the servers mentionned earlier. But actually, even if IM are at this price, the IS aren't going at a higher price, because if you compare the price of a scroll in IM, it costs 8 IM Points for a scroll, while back to the old servers, it was 100 IM Points a single scroll.
  • 0

#9 Merciful

Merciful

    I made it Off Topic

  • Members
  • 23 posts
  • Playing:Nothing

Posted 29 April 2016 - 01:24 AM

jajaja, read the title of this topic and take back your "removing everything" paragraph, plus add arguments about how it makes the game healthy to have a rich dude one-shot-kill newbies

plus if you think people stay on this game for redundant and boring -snip- pve since they can't play pvp, you're kinda wrong

 

70g an insurance scroll on the market and 100 for reinforced, webzen had them at 90-100g and 120-130, and it was about 35 points, not 100

20 silver coins for a scroll are 2000 monsters plus they're supposedly used on souls. ggwp, sugar-coated pay-to-win tasted better

 

now take that into account and dare write that nothing should be done about pvp, lol


  • 0

#10 Fliederduft78

Fliederduft78

    Too Legit To Quit

  • Members
  • 1691 posts
  • LocationCurrently on Earth
  • Playing:Dragon Saga
  • Server:Last one standing

Posted 29 April 2016 - 02:08 AM

blahblah....

 

you forget one important thing:

 

the players (IM sellers) make the IM ratio, not the company. The whole server economy regarding IM selling and buying is completely up to the players. So if the players decide their new rate is 1:10 (and people actually buying at this rates), it is well..........a self player made thing (or p2w as you like to call it). Don't blame the company for this, the players and only the players decide at what rates they sell and buy IM.

 

Actually the company is helping out with the soulboxes and silvercoin drop. On EU nothing like this would ever have been possible.

 

For some PVE might seem.........boring........for others like me it is clearly not. While for others PVP might seem..........boring.....and others have a lots of fun doing it.  Believe it or not a lot of people on this server here do enjoy both. Sometimes it is not about black or white, it's about grey and grey sometimes can be a great color.

 

However, it might be a good idea to let the staff simply do their things. Not everything can be done at once and sadly the PVP is not the only bugged thing this game comes with - thanks to Gravity Korea.

 

Yes, all of us agree that PVP is something that needs to be made better, balanced. I agree that gear should not be "everything that is needed" to win. Actual skills should matter too, a lot (excluding "how to set up the best macro"). However, gear does matter in an RPG game and to have different gears and playing around with these is a big part of it.

The solution to this balancing can't be as simply as "give anyone the same gear"......that would crash the RPG part totally.

Maybe something like "let them have the gear they want but don't let pvp (the whole game) only depend on this".

 

Just two cents from a pure PVE player here.......sorry in the case I write crap.

 

On a side note, maybe the OP got banned because of their attitude towards game and company.....don't think it's good for anyone to continue with that exact same attitude.

Calm down this is a game (good one, in my opinion best FTP ever :p_smile:), but still just a game...

 

 

 

 

 

 

.


  • 0

#11 Merciful

Merciful

    I made it Off Topic

  • Members
  • 23 posts
  • Playing:Nothing

Posted 29 April 2016 - 02:23 AM

don't care why they were banned, it's just funny to see that the forum was kinda surviving before they were

 

also, not "blahblah". if you have anything else to say that "too long, didn't even read the title", go ahead, but this topic isn't about removing anything

like, see here

 

blahblah.png

 

important things are in dirty red squares just in case

 

 

and i reserve myself the right to blame anyone for what they did. this system of free trade between players was wanted, and it's normal for it to degenerate at some point as shown by capitalism in our own era

there can be important measures taken, it just needs time and cleverness. prolly they have both in the staff, or at least they should, lol


  • 0

#12 Precrush

Precrush

    Too Legit To Quit

  • Members
  • 1650 posts
  • Playing:Dragon Saga

Posted 29 April 2016 - 03:33 AM

Well I'm pretty sure a few items being marketable didn't cause a server wide increase in prices of all stackable items...

 

And the company does control the prices on the server indirectly by deciding for example the IM prices, how much gold one gains and what it is used for. One problem I personally think the game has is that gold, outside of using it as money to trade things between players, is pretty useless. Overtime this causes inflation, which in combination with duping finally being fixed is in my opinion the most probable cause of these price increases. When there no longer was an infinite supply of cheap items, prices went up. Because there's so much gold on the server, many people have the gold to pay for these items at a very high cost, which further increases prices. That's my hypothesis on what caused the great inflation of 2016 :P

 

Anyway, pvp is pretty much pay to win thanks to elements. Now if we get elements changed, I recon it's gonna make it so that even these 100g iss prices will be just fine. Bsq will still have the same problems of one being unable to contribute in any meaningful way if you don't have x-amount of gear (core design problem) and no real rewards. Arguable problems are the large number of bsq's a day and the lack of team play mechanics. We don't have a single good pvp mode really, only decent one is the normal room pvp (at least they couldn't mess that up). And even there people need to handicap gears themselves if they wish to have a fair battle.

 

But ye, gears need to be a factor in most things. This suggestion is good in the sense that it makes gear less important in bsq, helping with the first problem I mentioned earlier. But in the end I think that wouldn't be enough to fix the whole mode, we'd still have all the other problems. I'd rather we fix elements and then add changes to bsq itself to fix these problems. More ways of gaining points (change and buff quests, points for fighting), better rewards, less bsqs a day, flag debuffs, some changes to the ways teams are formed. That'd be my recipe for making the mode desirable and enjoyable to anyone


  • 0

#13 Merciful

Merciful

    I made it Off Topic

  • Members
  • 23 posts
  • Playing:Nothing

Posted 29 April 2016 - 07:28 AM

supposedly it takes 1500+ scrolls for a +20 weapon (wiki may be liying), 150,000g much ? and you still don't have your back and stuff, elements or not

 

second concern is answered in this thread(players feeling useless), numerous bsq matches are quite fine (people don't all have 4 hours a day to play pvp), team play between strangers is something you see on games with equalized chances like tf2. i'll keep the explanation of this to myself unless someone wants a pm about it

 

for what it's worth, i haven't seen the shadow of the tail of anything factual regarding elements in ages, so i'm a little lost between laughter and disappointement as i get this "things are going well, just sit down and wait for the whole thing to be delivered" kind of feeling


  • 0

#14 Precrush

Precrush

    Too Legit To Quit

  • Members
  • 1650 posts
  • Playing:Dragon Saga

Posted 29 April 2016 - 07:47 AM

Alteris did touch on elements in the last dev stream, saying that it is an obvious sore point for the community that needs some changes, but also that they have to move carefully. When asked about an elements rework he said: "Definitely, that is something we are aggressively looking into. Hopefully that'll come out with the arcadia update." Sounds good to me!

 

Those wiki numbers are obviously wrong. Without elements +20 gear should be pretty strong, and as such I think a lot of the problems will be eradicated.

 

I really dislike having 8 bsq's a day, I think that only reduces the number of people in them and makes the possible rewards it could give worse. 4 would be fine by me. But then again, if the mode is made better I think we could realistically fill 8 bsq's a day also. Teamplay doesn't require equalized chances by any means. It just comes down to how good the system bringing a bit of team play in there is. I'm not talking major things here, just things like the flag debuffs would bring , people having to defend a certain person and attack a certain person (more so than now).


  • 0




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users