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Classic skill delays


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#1 Aannunaki

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Posted 20 June 2016 - 03:15 PM

Why is 5 skills per second possible on classic? It used to be 3 per second (reference : stat calcs). 5 is too much damage too fast especially with infinite acid bomb material.
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#2 Undying

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Posted 20 June 2016 - 03:39 PM

Read about this in the foundry. Not to sound like a douche, but has anyone made a video counting everything? I just want to know if it's true, with some supporting evidence rather then hear say. It wouldn't surprise me if 5 per second happend, but would prefer to see proof rather then taking what people are saying as a fact.

I play on a potato, too laggy for me to tell. Haha, jk my ro screen is really a dos based command program.
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#3 Xellie

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Posted 20 June 2016 - 03:43 PM

 my ro screen is really a dos based command program.

 

If that was true then your readout would display the delays between skills :(

 

 

Squirrel said something or something.... maybe he has a video


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#4 Mischelle

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Posted 26 August 2016 - 05:28 PM

5 skills per second is possible because many skill delays aren't skill delays, they are client side animation delays.

 

What that means is that you can only cast a skill again after the client is done playing the animation sequence of the skill you just cast.

 

The server itself does not check how fast you are casting skills.  There is a limit to how fast it will allow you to attack, but this is very much faster than what the client will allow for, and is related to how the server handles attacks and damage.

 

There are two main ways to cast skills super fast, one is "legit" and is related to player skill.  The other is basically a hack.

 

1st there is what is known as 'dancing', lots of games call it 'animation cancelling', in a popular moba, it is called 'orb walking'.  What you do is cast a skill then follow it up with an action that cancels the attack animation, in RO, that would be moving.  Players with high APM can use this to use skills, cancel their attack backswing (the animation that happens after the skill is cast), then cast the skill again.  What this looks like in game is the character 'dances' back and forth very slightly while spamming skills.  I call this "legit" because it has been around for a decade and a half, it's basically gone from "bug" to "feature".

 

The hack way is the player simply edits the client grf and changes the sprites related to skill animations to basically nothing.  The client will play this nonexistent animation, resulting in 0 backswing, and the character can use the skill again immediately.  Since it is the client that is designed to filter out improper user commands, the server assumes the incoming skill use commands from that client are legit, and does not check to see if they are within the game's designed parameters.

 

Both methods work by taking advantage of the same poorly written server side code.


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#5 Xellie

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Posted 27 August 2016 - 05:44 AM

Read about this in the foundry. Not to sound like a douche, but has anyone made a video counting everything? I just want to know if it's true, with some supporting evidence rather then hear say. It wouldn't surprise me if 5 per second happend, but would prefer to see proof rather then taking what people are saying as a fact.

I play on a potato, too laggy for me to tell. Haha, jk my ro screen is really a dos based command program.

 

It's 5/second - we did some serious science

 

Which is also crazy because I swear it used to cap at 3 but without a time machine there's no way to know.


Edited by Xellie, 27 August 2016 - 05:59 AM.

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#6 Mischelle

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Posted 27 August 2016 - 12:39 PM

The other way to go 5/second (or more)* is certain skills have no animation delay, but after cast delay, which is handled server side.  You eliminate this with magic strings, and you can cast these types of skills as fast as the server will allow.  The best example I can think of is spear boomerang.

 

*While science may have shown 5/second is the max, I'm almost positive it is 7/second.  The fact that it was even thought that 3/second makes me wonder, since it's obviously always been higher than that.


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#7 EggShell

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Posted 28 August 2016 - 07:31 PM

I have also done some tests counting and comparing the frames between skill uses and can confirm that, according to my tests, its also 5 casts per second.

 

I've always remembered it that back in pre-RE people were saying "A person can only spam about 3 casts per second", rather than a hard cap of 3 casts per second server side. I'm assuming back in the day things like AHK were not as prevalent, so whatever most humans could perform became the standard, in a sense. People's builds and gear were probably less optimized as well, so that may have also played a part in the lack of someone checking what the maximum possible was. I think I remember some iWiki threads throwing around numbers like 186-ish ASPD being sufficient for spamming skills since that translates to about 3 casts per second (which is kinda false even if 3 was the cap). 

 

However regarding 7/second, I think that's only possible on Renewal servers where you can get 193 ASPD (7"hits"/second). This is because, skills that have 100% of their after cast delays removed via 150INT Magic Strings then become dependent on ASPD for their delay. This holds true even for animation-less skills such as Dazzler and Unbarring Octave, as I'm sure we've all seen the demonstrated difference between a low ASPD Gypsy Dazzler and a high ASPD one. And by regarding, I mean legally of course.


Edited by EggShell, 28 August 2016 - 07:34 PM.

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#8 Xellie

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Posted 29 August 2016 - 06:01 AM

I have also done some tests counting and comparing the frames between skill uses and can confirm that, according to my tests, its also 5 casts per second.

 

I've always remembered it that back in pre-RE people were saying "A person can only spam about 3 casts per second", rather than a hard cap of 3 casts per second server side. I'm assuming back in the day things like AHK were not as prevalent, so whatever most humans could perform became the standard, in a sense. People's builds and gear were probably less optimized as well, so that may have also played a part in the lack of someone checking what the maximum possible was. I think I remember some iWiki threads throwing around numbers like 186-ish ASPD being sufficient for spamming skills since that translates to about 3 casts per second (which is kinda false even if 3 was the cap). 

 

However regarding 7/second, I think that's only possible on Renewal servers where you can get 193 ASPD (7"hits"/second). This is because, skills that have 100% of their after cast delays removed via 150INT Magic Strings then become dependent on ASPD for their delay. This holds true even for animation-less skills such as Dazzler and Unbarring Octave, as I'm sure we've all seen the demonstrated difference between a low ASPD Gypsy Dazzler and a high ASPD one. And by regarding, I mean legally of course.

 

That sounds about right actually, the 186 aspd thing. But... I used to have a g15 back in those days and I couldn't make a macro for spamming pots/skills or it would DC me where as now it doesn't. That could have also been lag tho.

 

7/sec would HAVE to be renewal.


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#9 HotoCocoa

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Posted 29 August 2016 - 06:11 PM

7 skills/sec is absurd for aegis classic rofl


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#10 Viri

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Posted 29 August 2016 - 06:16 PM

Pre renewal you could always get 5 per second even before "classic". Stat calculators defaulted to 3 for some reason, maybe considering latency or something but you could definitely squeeze out more than that with battle ping and no delay/strings/whatever. It wasn't a server side restriction, that's for sure.


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#11 Mischelle

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Posted 30 August 2016 - 03:03 PM

Upvoted posts w/ regards to aspd cap.  I made mistake re: renewal vs pre-re attack/second.

 

Thank you.


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#12 HotoCocoa

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Posted 30 August 2016 - 03:30 PM

You can make it 7 to 10 skills/sec and you still won't fully feel how it hurts lmao, that's how much of a clusterfukc this server is


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#13 Shomaye

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Posted 04 September 2016 - 08:05 PM

Just adding, we were able to reproduce 5/sec (avg 210 ms each, actually) with Gloria Domini on Classic w/ 150 int strings and 190 aspd.  After hitting those two thresholds it becomes very ping-dependent.  Needed someone with <15 ms ping to get it as fast as we did.  I can link a video, but I think we all agree here.
 

Spoiler


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