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Should X spam be an actual part of the PvP ?


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#1 5143121023173906760

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Posted 27 June 2016 - 01:09 AM

I'm asking this question to everyone :

All the people I've heard said that without Smart Shot, sumonners are nothing.
But if you look at the skill tree, you may notice that sumonners have a lot of skills and passives.

But are they really worth it ?
If you look closely at what the skill does, there is so many skills that have an use for PvP : Stun, bind, push, Dash/Jump block, movement/attack speed reducing, poison, HP/MP burn... And I've never seen anyone using them.

In addition to that, sumonners have some summons that can take a lot of hits before dying, if elements aren't involved.

Same thing could go aswell with priest, they have tons of heals, magnet, freezing...

So, what if Smart Shot, or any skills that implies to mash the X button were blocked in PvP, so the involved classes (except marksman maybe) become more some supportive class, and (sligthly) improves the PvP teamplay ?
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#2 Precrush

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Posted 27 June 2016 - 01:42 AM

With weaker elements invoker x-spam will just tickle people, summoners should just have that same mechanic.


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#3 Agitodesu

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Posted 27 June 2016 - 06:52 AM

Having played at top tier pvp and in 1v1s, I personally run the support shaman build. The thing is if you want to run the support build you can't max out the Matk passive.

Blocking x spam in pvp would put shamans in the support section. It would be great in low tier/level bsq. But in 85 with players with a decent amount of gear , they won't die. Especially priests. If we were to nerd shaman x from pvp I would like to fix the skill tree beforehand since the skill tree is made so you can't get anything decent at all. I won't explain the specifics but it's the way it is. Everything you've said works in bsqs under 79. At the top 2 bsqs things change and invokers except ero does like 10 damage on me or even 0. To think you want to nerf invokers more than that will be pretty bad.


In the topic of summoners, to cast skills that have timers fast, you need summons+circulation. Most shaman builds that have enough skill points to get summons+damage and that's about it. If you want to run support, you run out of skill points cause of the amount of prerequisites for those and won't be able to max out your summons. That means you have a 2+ second cast time if your summons die and basically a low level summon dies really fast. you screw yourself.

Edited by Agitodesu, 27 June 2016 - 08:38 AM.

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#4 5143121023173906760

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Posted 27 June 2016 - 08:34 AM

You guys are right, especially about skill limitations.

 

I didn't thought about this because I'm doing my Hunter G quests everyday, so I have skill points to spend on the tree.


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#5 Agitodesu

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Posted 27 June 2016 - 08:44 AM

Just want to say even if you are level 85 you lack sp. imagine if you were under 85 and not farming HunterGs or buying them. I'd find running support build in level 70 or lower bsq near impossible considering my support build on a level 8x aren't even close to being maxed out. 20+ levels is a lot of sp. Ps share some hunter caps with me ;)

With the upcoming element nerf hopefully, invokers will tickle and probably be put into a support/tank role. With the heals to oneself/amount of disabilities they can provide. The reason why I included invokers is that diffioun and smart shot are almost identical at face value and are different if we get specific.

Just a question, how much bonus sp do you have?

Edited by Agitodesu, 27 June 2016 - 08:48 AM.

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#6 Precrush

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Posted 27 June 2016 - 09:41 AM

Besides wouldn't you rather fix these things than just make them unavailable. 

 

Is there a way to see your bonus sp? I'd be interested to know how many I've gotten so far.


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#7 eyes2kill

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Posted 27 June 2016 - 10:46 AM

Blocking x spam in pvp would put shamans in the support section. It would be great in low tier/level bsq. But in 85 with players with a decent amount of gear , they won't die. Especially priests. If we were to nerd shaman x from pvp I would like to fix the skill tree beforehand since the skill tree is made so you can't get anything decent at all. I won't explain the specifics but it's the way it is. Everything you've said works in bsqs under 79. At the top 2 bsqs things change and invokers except ero does like 10 damage on me or even 0. To think you want to nerf invokers more than that will be pretty bad.

 

I have to disagree, Invokers, summoners and Twin need to be nerf. Those 3 classes are the most OP and have been for over 4 years, since kazeura was introduced. By the way this discussion should of been under class discussion.

 

If they were to balance the priest, first thing they need to take out is all heal and I meant no healing (most be taken out), they already have enough stunt move and the freezing should work like a stunt and not be there for a ridiculous amount of time frozen so everyone can spam you to death(makes no sense).

 

Summoners magical attack power should be decreased by 35% and increase stunt barrier (area spell) by 25% as well to decreasing stunt rock to be cast faster.

 

Twin should not have the ability to use the block evade at all, they already have enough stunts to kill you with 2 hits.

 

No one should be able to lock you with stunts for undetermined amount of time to include both Priest and warlock freezing.
 

 I could go on, but really, I'm working on set up for all classes, not perfect just an ambition of mines lol,,,,,,,

 

Btw before thinking that I just want to kill those 3 classes, I have all 3 of them maxed 85, they are my mains, but I rather have something that is balanced, instead of pretending we are any good due to the skill provided to those 3 classes. Make it balanced, make it fair and above all else, lets make them bleed XD>


Edited by eyes2kill, 27 June 2016 - 10:59 AM.

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#8 Agitodesu

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Posted 27 June 2016 - 12:04 PM

I have to disagree, Invokers, summoners and Twin need to be nerf. Those 3 classes are the most OP and have been for over 4 years, since kazeura was introduced. By the way this discussion should of been under class discussion.

 

If they were to balance the priest, first thing they need to take out is all heal and I meant no healing (most be taken out), they already have enough stunt move and the freezing should work like a stunt and not be there for a ridiculous amount of time frozen so everyone can spam you to death(makes no sense).

 

Summoners magical attack power should be decreased by 35% and increase stunt barrier (area spell) by 25% as well to decreasing stunt rock to be cast faster.

 

Twin should not have the ability to use the block evade at all, they already have enough stunts to kill you with 2 hits.

 

No one should be able to lock you with stunts for undetermined amount of time to include both Priest and warlock freezing.
 

 I could go on, but really, I'm working on set up for all classes, not perfect just an ambition of mines lol,,,,,,,

 

Btw before thinking that I just want to kill those 3 classes, I have all 3 of them maxed 85, they are my mains, but I rather have something that is balanced, instead of pretending we are any good due to the skill provided to those 3 classes. Make it balanced, make it fair and above all else, lets make them bleed XD>

 

Lets not confuse with high tier and low tier battlesquares/pvp.

 

Invokers do a lot of damage early game. They do squat nothing late game. Based on gearing ratio. I'll spare the extended details. Nerf Invokers Maximum health in Battlesquare for the heals they can provide. If you can burst them, they can't heal and a healer that can't heal is counter intuitive. If they can survive or get lucky, they can heal back up. But die fairly quickly. Maximum health affects Stackers more than the non stackers

 

Here invokers have support cc, they can heal as a healer should, and is not tanky as most clerics are, Do consistent damage early on then drop off to a legitimate support class late game after element nerf. The problem with invokers early and late game are the tankyness of stacked players. The problem with damage is they do too much damage in low bsq, and drop off to low damage higher on in 81.

 

For summoner nerfs, placing a total Matk nerf doesn't sound so bad. Even if we were to see this happen, players would use this class 90% of the time to spam x. Not use spells. Adjusting the skill tree may help out on a direction where you can be a spell caster or x spammer. Right now the skill tree is geared towards x spamming. Why? Because summons+xspam+matk is sufficient in sp. If you were to get spells+summons only(no Matk boost/x spam) your skill tree would still lack spells and summons won't even last enough to let you cast spells at a fast rate due to sp. This is crucial to early game battlesquare. I lack sp as a level 8x, imagine if I were to bsq in a level 4x/5x/6x/or even 7x I would take the x spam route cause it's nearly impossible to fit sp in the support shaman build path. If I were to be a spell casting summoner that doesn't x spam, I would have like 3 spells to cast and my summons won't even be max level to make energy circulation useful.

 

Twins are meh, I can say stuff about it later when it needs to be worked on.


Edited by Agitodesu, 27 June 2016 - 12:07 PM.

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#9 Precrush

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Posted 27 June 2016 - 12:42 PM

Because invokers will likely lose a good portion of that dmg output even on lower levels, I'd rather not see hp reductions of the level that would make healing balanced. That'd mean the class would be a really squishy heal/debuff machine and I imagine it'd just be awkward to play the class when you'd just be running from all fights. I still like the idea of making skills have different cooldowns and for example healing amounts in pvp and pve. If that were the case it'd be pretty easy to just lower the heal amounts and increase cooldowns to a balanced level. And not only the heals, the debuffs and crowd control too. I think this would be the best possible plan to enable continuous pvp balance tweaks, since they wouldn't have to be concerned with how they'd effect the classes in pve, and you'd also not need to just waste skills by disabling them. Dunno if that's in the plans still though.

 

Elements rework and also likely the changes to def/atk are probably going to shake up the class balance quite a bit. I hope it'll also lower this cap between lower gear pvp and the super end game pvp. At this point we are just saying the same things every other week. So I say just wait for what that brings.


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#10 Agitodesu

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Posted 27 June 2016 - 01:15 PM

Because invokers will likely lose a good portion of that dmg output even on lower levels, I'd rather not see hp reductions of the level that would make healing balanced. That'd mean the class would be a really squishy heal/debuff machine and I imagine it'd just be awkward to play the class when you'd just be running from all fights. I still like the idea of making skills have different cooldowns and for example healing amounts in pvp and pve. If that were the case it'd be pretty easy to just lower the heal amounts and increase cooldowns to a balanced level. And not only the heals, the debuffs and crowd control too. I think this would be the best possible plan to enable continuous pvp balance tweaks, since they wouldn't have to be concerned with how they'd effect the classes in pve, and you'd also not need to just waste skills by disabling them. Dunno if that's in the plans still though.

 

Elements rework and also likely the changes to def/atk are probably going to shake up the class balance quite a bit. I hope it'll also lower this cap between lower gear pvp and the super end game pvp. At this point we are just saying the same things every other week. So I say just wait for what that brings.

 

So basically be tanky->less heal strength-> run more to get heals more often enough.

 

I don't think healers should have more tank capabilites than something like a paladin the iconic tank. They can't heal as well as healers, take nearly the same damage, magic damage crushes them etc. If you were to reduce the heals, they can still be tanky because of the sustained healing. The cooldown on paladins roach/blessing is like 3 minutes +. Any form of healing can beat this even if nerfed to an agreeable amount to players who play invokers.

 

I don't see why Invokers need 450k Hp+. Lower heals by x%. Slow heal/energize/nurse etc will heal them back up fairly quickly a % of % is still a % not a flat number. Even 1% of 450,000 is still a 4,500 heal. And lemme tell you those peanuts people throw at invokers dont do a lot of damage.

 

So yeah waiting for the Arcadia update to go by then rethink over would be better. If it doesn't we know where to look to.


Edited by Agitodesu, 27 June 2016 - 01:19 PM.

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#11 5143121023173906760

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Posted 27 June 2016 - 01:19 PM

I was about to point out those 1 %. :heh:
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#12 Agitodesu

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Posted 27 June 2016 - 01:21 PM

Ha that would be 10% but I mean level 10 slow heal is 7.5% so It's not that far off from what it is normally :( Imagine a wide heal


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#13 eyes2kill

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Posted 27 June 2016 - 09:57 PM

Ha that would be 10% but I mean level 10 slow heal is 7.5% so It's not that far off from what it is normally :( Imagine a wide heal

 

I have fought in every level bsq on a daily basis and have1-3 characters maxed in each and the main problem is always the same, heal-heal-heal-heal-run-run-run-heal............ Sorry, but you will never see a game that is balanced when there is classes that can heal at will, does not matter if the skill tree is enhanced to fit your dreams. Call it what you want, healing should be out of all bsq and ew fighting and I meant all heals to include potions and skills.

 

 No such  thing as balance, priest are monster even at level 80's although, you might disagree, not many can actually survive with my priest and is a FACT, if I'm in trouble I simply blink out heal or map out and heal. Is the games schematics at fault here, and Precrush has a better solution, I also think that maybe a 15% increase to total hp should be add it, but freezing should be taken out or work as a stunt. You might consider summoner to be OP, but my summoner which you have seen is a total beast, all it takes a good priest to freeze with good enough skills able to move-stunt and sooner or later the summoner will fall, unless we use potions, which most people do in EW or map out to heal.

 

 Don't matter which bsq-ew level we attend, if you are able to escape and heal the game becomes what it is now, running while using potions or  map out, or  escape heal. Takes the fun out of the game, running or movement is another no go. We can talk about what can be change for a month, what skill tree needs to be change, the end result will always be the same (NO Balance), run potion, heal escape is a factor no one should have in any battle unless is during PVE. When people go to BSQ or EW, most want to go and destroy and show strength of force that are based on their wits, wisdom, tactical and pure skills of a player against you. Not a chasing game, or disappearing act to heal or proof how evasive you can be by showing your true colors and run all night long. The way I see it running to prevent battle in accordance with the webster dictionary is been a coward, healing is not tact-full solution but rather an inappropriate gimmick not based on true battle skills.

 

When I fight, I either conquer all or get wrecked by all XD. Don't get me wrong, I do use heal potions when fighting 3 vs 1 in BSQ, but on one to one battle in bsq, either I kill or I will be killed with no potions. I think is only fair and if the game schematics allow you to use it, than........ is their fault lol.

 

 


Edited by eyes2kill, 27 June 2016 - 10:15 PM.

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#14 Agitodesu

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Posted 27 June 2016 - 10:17 PM

You should try to fight one of my characters. I'll afk for you and see how long it takes to kill someone with your priest. Just for clarification on this damage, our standards aren't matching for some reason even at this top tier level.

 

Edit:Yes I can kill anyone squishy with elements and yada yada it's given that almost any class can destroy against non stacked players if built decently. Also I think any class has the ability to run and heal or w.e they want.


Edited by Agitodesu, 27 June 2016 - 10:27 PM.

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#15 Precrush

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Posted 27 June 2016 - 10:37 PM

What I mean is that if you nerf heals by nerfing hp you'll have to run it too much to the ground. I don't even know how that'd be technically possible with all the items that give hp in the game. Those skills can just be nerfed and it's fine. Slow heal for example, even at 450k hp, if it healed 1%, had a 10 sec duration and a 2 minute cooldown, it wouldn't be a problem. These changes would probably require the system I talked about earlier, but I think it's possible that they could be made without it at least partially.

 

Healing is not a bad game mechanic at all. All of the skills in game can be balanced to be just fine, it's all about the numbers on the skills. We don't want to just be throwing out skills if they are broken, why do that when they can be fixed! What would Clerics be without dmg AND healing? They'd be left with 5 crowd control skills, which would probably still have to be nerfed. Who'd want to play that? And most healing items are also fine, it's just the few that heal % that you can spam that cause problems. And also cakes and such should have a longer cooldown in pvp. But healing itself is just fine.

 

EDIT: That slow heal example is just something that shows a case of where healing wouldn't cause any issues, but obviously a heal like that would be too weak.


Edited by Precrush, 27 June 2016 - 11:49 PM.

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#16 ohsnap

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Posted 28 June 2016 - 05:57 AM

They need to just buff patk or mdef honestly. There's way too much pdef going around compare to mdef. Only reason why summoners are so OP is even without element dmg they still do way too much dmg. The only ones that can tank their hits are mages and even then mdef is just a stat that's kinda saturated. Another problem with people complaining about healing or runners in pvp is the fact that there's just not much ppl with equal gears participating in EW or bsq to get the full effect of what's "balanced" or what isn't. In a 15 vs 15 fight everyone dies rather easily whether you can heal or not. In higher lvl bsqs it's been proven that with an even number of players and even gears that a team full of just summoners, sorcs and invokers can't beat a team with less invokers and summoners, sorcs, and archers. It is however a bit sad that thieves and warriors don't fit two well in these group fights and it's due to a lot of their important stats and skills getting nerfed that they don't fare too well against the other classes now. That being said this happens in every mmorpg with pvp or even other games with pvp. Once something gets buffed or nerf that character or class will be more popular to play which indicates a meta. Playing mages, dragonkins, and archers is pretty much the current meta cause close range combos in group fights just leaves you too vulnerable and you have to drop combos to avoid getting caught. Meanwhile these other classes have a lot of mobility, too much aoe cc or able to sustain forever. Back then pallies being able to block, heal, lock and run away with barricade and ninjas just building high evade was also a meta we played in as well. Whether you believed any of these classes were OP then and now it was still cancerous to play in either one of these metas if you weren't playing any of those classes that are good for the meta. No I don't think these classes are particularly OP they just excel more in group fights but by themselves they don't do as well as they would be in group environments like bsq or ew. 


Edited by ohsnap, 28 June 2016 - 06:18 AM.

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#17 Turpi

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Posted 30 June 2016 - 05:29 AM

Oh man, so hard to read everything at mobile phone. I really like the topic and the idea behind it.

I also think that xspam in pvp as a main dmg dealer is a stupid thing and pretty fun-killing. Summoner got rly rly great other skills which also allow you to do great combos. But like you guys, or Agi already mentioned Summoner and some other classes have a big lack of sp.

Idk a good way to fix it, but maybe a nice way would be to give Summoner some bonus sp every 2 levels or smth like this.

In my opinion it would be cool to nerf smartshots dmg in pvp and to buff the other skills.

Sadly classes like invoker got less good skills to deal dmg with. Maybe a good way would also be to buff rain of fire and that spark rock thing in dmg and to remove the casting time. But we will see how invo is doing after the arcadia update.

The healing of invo is another story. At the one hand its invokers job to heal at the other hand its gamebreaking. I like the suggestion to nerf the healing amount tho and to increase the cooldown tho. I think this would be great. But i have the feeling that invoker needs one more skill to combo with when the normal xspam will get nerfed.

Also i dont see a big problem with the freeze time of the invokers skill. The most stupid thing is that it always hits totally out of range.

Edited by Turpi, 30 June 2016 - 05:33 AM.

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