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Basic Balance Theory [Discussion]


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#1 Feuer

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Posted 19 July 2016 - 01:28 PM

So something I've been pondering a fair bit lately is the core balances that seemed to have escape ROSE over the years.

 

First off, you have the holy trinity [Healer Tank DPS] core types.

Within those core types you have the archetypes:

 

Healer: Direct Heal, Heal Over Time [HoT], and Mitigation [Damage prevention/ protection]

Tank: Health Wall [tanks for a long period due to high HP], Mitigation, Prevention, Defelction.

DPS: Single Target, Cleave [AoE], DoT [Damage Over Time], Pressure Control

 

Within those further you have:

Ranged, Melee

 

But something I'm beginning to notice is an erosion of those basic concepts.

 

For example, the fundamental properties of Ranged are:

Long Distance gains initiation advantage, typically softer in defenses, relies on kiting and control of the battle to be victorious.

 

Then we have the fundamental properties of Melee:

Close range, higher damage, typically access to stronger defenses and survival cooldowns, relies on proper reaction and preemptive cooldown usage to be victorious.

 

But if we look at say a Magician in ROSE.

The fit the DPS core type, and Ranged sub-type. However, if you look at the properties of Ranged classes, their role suddenly breaks. They have higher damage with ranged advantage, along with build options of all DPS types. So what's wrong with that? Well, when you give a Ranged sub-type a close range sub-type's damage potential, you take away the Melee Range role purpose. Why get close to your target for a damage advantage when you can just stay away from them, and deal the same damage. [Arguably more, but that's a different point with statistic inbalance].

 

How many of these Ranged Types have this issue? Almost all of them.

Mages, Cannon Bourgeois, Cannon Artisans are prime Examples.

But a good show of offensive balance is:

xBow Knights, xBow Scouts, Bow Scouts [in current patch], Gun Artisan/Bourgeois, Battle Clerics.

 

Their DPS potential isn't so large that Melee never have a chance to engage the target, whereas Mages and Cannons can quite literally terminate a target who's already approaching before the Melee character can reach them at all. Now, this isn't necessarily true in all situations all the time, but the fact remains that it happens quite often, and break the roles purpose. 

 

Something else noteworthy, is that there are no Tanks conforming to most properties of the Tank role.

Knight have a mixture of most properties, but also lack in many elements that make those properties effective.

 

For example, High HP Tanks are great for tanking DoT Damage. As DoT's while scaling are static when compared to Max HP. HP and DoT's are in a direct relationship with each other.

But, we have no classes that can Taunt/Aggro and tank Magic Damage. This in the past has been justified by the 'class lore'. But that's not an excuse to not have a tank capable of managing magical targets. Typically games assign Diversion/Prevention tanks to this. Instead of giving them large reductions to Magical Damage [which is typically outside most class lore] the give them tools to manage magic damage.

Lastly, we do have Mitigation Tanking of Physical Damage.

 

So in effect, we're missing:

Diversion/Prevention Tanks

 

Lastly, I want to talk about Melee DPS.

 

In ROSE, we have in effect 2 melee DPS classes. Raider, Champion.

going off the atypical roles of the Melee DPS combo, you would expect

Good Damage + Pressure. Good Defensives, Effective Cooldown Utilities.

 

Raider:

Good Damage + Pressure: Yes.

They have access to good attack power, augmentations to offensive stats,

Survival Cooldowns: Yes.

Access Stealth and Cloaking, Blind and Mental Storm, Evasive Guard and Mirror Phantasm.

Good Defensives: Yes.

Dodge, Defense as primary stat, both effective. Self Healing CD's and Sleep to escape.

 

Champions:

Good Damage + Pressure: No.

They do have augmentations to their offensive stats, however their attack power in addition to the skill damage or attack speed means they lack damage + pressure when not under the effect of a heavy CD like Enraged Berserk. Rendering them ineffective when the skill is on cooldown [for about 50% of the time]

Survival Cooldowns: No.

They simply don't have any.

Good Defensives: No.

While they have a strong HP Maximum, they do not have any good reductions that make the high HP effective. No do they have access to a selection of controling status mechanics that help control the fight.

 

These are just some thoughts to get people going as I wanted this to be an open forum discussion. 

 


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#2 OshOsh

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Posted 19 July 2016 - 01:38 PM

Very well indeed


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#3 KatsuraKujo

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Posted 23 July 2016 - 05:50 PM

I know this might be a bad idea to start off for magical tanking, but how about introducing a new type of cleric, or knight which is capable of doing decent amount of cc (crowd control) on people as well as their own taunt (for clerics)

Personally I think it is an alright idea, but need to make it somehow that the community can only stick to that build instead of going a little hybrid like semi cc and heal support.

Next would be the champions, I think an extra skill can be added to berserk, like cool down reduction for the skills they use (mostly aoes that are not very mindless spamming) to allow them to use the skills for a better amount of cool down plus burst potential. And since it is in berserk, the cool down for that is already quite high enough for it to actually be a good thing to add to it.

That's all I got to say for now
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#4 DoubleRose

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Posted 23 July 2016 - 07:23 PM

Charge was a great skill because it gave champions an identity and a window of offensive power. They could reliably engage at the cost of weakening future engagements because after using it they'd lose their movement buff. Their design has always had trade offs since they have to engage and then they win the fight or they don't. If they don't engage they lose. Even at the height of their power a good mage could still destroy them.

 

The devs tried to open up the option for knight being melee dps by adding graceful fencing. Knights have fairly good defenses but I'd say they lack in offensive pressure and it makes more sense to play knights as a tank and pick raider instead for dps, though shield stun is helpful. All the types of defenses scale with each other (more hp you have the better def is, more def and hp you have the more useful % reduction is, more of those things make block better which means less damage coming in which raises effecting hp even more, lasting longer means more time for health regen to work, all of this means you block more which procs your defensive steroid passives). Weakening defense a bit in order to get damage ends up crippling defense so knights need to stick to tank builds. Champs just get hp and defense, so even though their stats look good their defense is significantly worse than knights and what they bring to the melee dps table is their cleave ability.


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#5 yamz

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Posted 31 July 2016 - 09:47 PM

I find the Magical tanking a bad idea since if you will consider how soft this classes are having magical attacks (Mage/Battle Cleric). It is the only pros (offense) that to cover up those cons (defense). If this will be tank or counter it will be a major disadvantage on there part.


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#6 Feuer

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Posted 31 July 2016 - 10:50 PM

Mages are not soft, and neither are Battle Clerics. That flat out lie isn't a valid justification and I'm not going to sit here while it gets used. Mages can out tank a Knight any day. In both 1v1 and in Group content when the mage plays defensively. The same goes for BC's when they're playing defensively with CD's and CC's. 

 

The statement 'magical classes are weak defensively' has been a lie ever since 2014. If you haven't noticed the changes yet, then I'd respectfully ask you to investigate your claim, before making and subjecting us to it. 


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#7 yamz

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Posted 31 July 2016 - 11:15 PM

That's your opinion, I'm not talking specifically the defense of muses since they are meant to be low defense. What i'm saying is the magical tanking you referring to is already there. Its just people dont bother to build it since Majority of the classes are not magic.


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#8 Feuer

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Posted 31 July 2016 - 11:52 PM

 I'm not talking specifically the defense of muses

 

 if you will consider how soft this classes are having magical attacks (Mage/Battle Cleric).

 

...

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