16 replies to this topic

[Onyzer]

Hello everyone !

 

I wanted to know what you guys think about mercenaries in Emporia War.

 

Here is my opinion :

First of all, the word mercenary doesn't correspond to the "Mercenary system" in Dragon Saga. Guilds don't have to hire people to get help from them. Moreover, players who are in a guild shoudln't be able to help another guild as a mercenary, that's my opinion.

That's why I think mercenaries should be taken off from the Emporia War. In a little bit less than 3 months of consecutive participation in Emporia War I've seen many guilds applying to the tournament, and just allowing mercenaries to join. They don't even send any members.

The mercenary system is being abused, and winning a match without any guild member participating to the fight shouldn't be rewarded as a victory for the guild. It's guild vs. guild, not guild vs. world or world vs. world, there is BSQ for this kind of fights.

 

Now I want to know what do you guys think about the mercenary system. Do you think it is something that has to stay, or to be taken off, or at least forbidden with a new rule. Also add in your point of view your "situation", are you a member of a regularly participating guild, a mercenary, or a guildless who doesn't care at all about Emporia War ?

 

PS : Do you think Emporia War has to be balanced ? With modifying some values like core's amount of HP, taking off some missions like "Attack the core 3 times" etc. (Popcorn, tell me if that's possible to do since adjusting missions depending on enemies to only get feasible missions is technically not possible)

 

PS2 : If you already encountered the untouchable core bug, just to say that the team is aware of this and currently investigating on it. (Source : Tirfing)

[Precrush]

I don't mind the merc system. While it can bring you good people to help, usually it ends up bringing in people that hurt you. Rarely does the guild with mercenaries open win a guild that has not. My guild doesn't go emporia, so this system lets me take part in them every once in a while.

 

I couldn't attack the core yesterday but relogging in fixed that.

[Vossel]

I'm a person who fights Emporia war regulary nowadays but fought it also as merc when i was guildless, and even fought once as a oneman guild. In my opinion mercs how they are now are not good for the EW, i think we should only allow mercs if the guild who wants some mercs is in a disadvantage, for example: Guild1(noMercs) 8Member participate, Guild2(mercs) 4Member participate, in this scenario guild 2 should be allowed to have up to 4 mercs to catch up with the other guild, but mercs should have like a 1 minute delay to join and if mercs joined no other guild members could join so there won't be a we send 1 in to gain mercs then the rest joins.

[Onyzer]

I couldn't attack the core yesterday but relogging in fixed that.

 

We weren't able to attack the core yesterday either, ended up in a defeat since we didn't know that relogging was a fix.

Even if relogging is forbidden I guess that relogging to be able to attack the core isn't really against the rules.

 

Regarding your point of view about mercenary system : I understand that you might want to participate in Emporia War, even if your guild doesn't participate. But in this case, why don't you join a guild who does ? I mean, every guild has its pros and cons, and participating to Emporia War is for some players a reason to join or not a guild.

Just want to say that I'm not pointing out any guild or player in what I say, just giving my opinion on this point of view.

 

 

I'm a person who fights Emporia war regulary nowadays but fought it also as merc when i was guildless, and even fought once as a oneman guild. In my opinion mercs how they are now are not good for the EW, i think we should only allow mercs if the guild who wants some mercs is in a disadvantage, for example: Guild1(noMercs) 8Member participate, Guild2(mercs) 4Member participate, in this scenario guild 2 should be allowed to have up to 4 mercs to catch up with the other guild, but mercs should have like a 1 minute delay to join and if mercs joined no other guild members could join so there won't be a we send 1 in to gain mercs then the rest joins.

 

This isn't a bad idea. But with this, the system can be abused by only sending one or two highly stacked players to prevent the enemy guild to bring mercenaries. I mean, in this case the mercenary system will be one more reason to bring only a few players in the fight while Emporia War is supposed to be a big battlefield.

Edited by Onyzer, 30 October 2016 - 03:09 AM.

[Precrush]

But the thing is mercenaries very rarely give you an advantage. They just feed kills and quests to your opponent, making them get attack chance. Even with just 1 properly geared person it's probably better to go without them, certainly is if that person is very well geared. So wouldn't really help giving the losing team mercs. In the current EW I see no trouble with mercs for that very reason, they are bad.

 

There's much more to guilds other than empo, that's the reason I won't join a guild just for it.

 

And ye I figured using relogging to fix a horrible bug like that is fine... Although how do you tell who's relogging for quests and who to fix the bug. Meh, broken system problems.

[Vossel]

 

This isn't a bad idea. But with this, the system can be abused by only sending one or two highly stacked players to prevent the enemy guild to bring mercenaries. I mean, in this case the mercenary system will be one more reason to bring only a few players in the fight while Emporia War is supposed to be a big battlefield.

but isn't this how emporia war should work?? with brain and not raw power from others?? if there are just 2 enemies they have only 2 people to do quests with, Emporia war is not just about gear, i nearly won as overlord against summoner invoker who were more stacked than i was back then, emporia war is most about tactics, send one in who is really good in emporia war and whos class quests are not bugged and you can let him win easy solo.

For me emporia war is about handling the situation smarter and not stronger

Edited by Vossel, 30 October 2016 - 08:16 AM.

[Apocryphos]

Emporia is a place where running is encouraged almost every guild I've face either runs and switches islands before actual reaching combat. Mercs is a way for small guilds to get either good people or bad people to help. This could yield to either feeding the enemy points or dominating them. Is it worth the risk of opening the merc system? It depends I've been on what you get as mercs and on the side that mercs both yielding different results. There is ways the system can be abused in a sense but nothing rule breaking they take the risks of opening mercs albeit you can report feeders. For example If there was a group who was guildless they could technically all merc for a 1 man guild every EW and carry this 1 man guild every week to lock guilds out castle entirely, has this been done? Ofc not for extended periods of time though should they lose they can continue mercing for other guilds.

Edited by Apocryphos, 30 October 2016 - 10:49 AM.

[Vossel]

Emporia is a place where running is encouraged almost every guild I've face either runs and switches islands before actual reaching combat. Mercs is a way for small guilds to get either good people or bad people to help. This could yield to either feeding the enemy points or dominating them. Is it worth the risk of opening the merc system? It depends I've been on what you get as mercs and on the side that mercs both yielding different results. There is ways the system can be abused in a sense but nothing rule breaking they take the risks of opening mercs albeit you can report feeders. For example If there was a group who was guildless they could technically all merc for a 1 man guild every EW and carry this 1 man guild every week to lock guilds out castle entirely, has this been done? Ofc not for extended periods of time though should they lose they can continue mercing for other guilds.

In my opinion Emporia war is not about how well equiped your people are just how much your people know about the Emporia system and what class combination or which class could be the best to go in as 5-6 with. emporia has nothing to do with small or big guilds this has been proven by people who won the tournament on saturday as 1 person without mercs.

[Apocryphos]

In my experience MMORPG are basically gear orientated if ya wanted otherwise I suggest a MOBA, EW is a broken system no matter how you sugar coat it random missions only make it worse simply be that lucky guy with poke missions and survive missions and you'll win. When a guild goes 0 kills and several deaths and wins EW ya know the system is broken not to mention Dragon Fights. As for the actual topic relating mercenaries just make mercenaries unable to hit the core even with attack phase. For dragon fights simply put 5 dragons each island all with separate and equal HP values pretty much increasing the difficulty by 5x.

Edited by Apocryphos, 30 October 2016 - 01:32 PM.

[5143121023173906760]

If you wanna help a guild with EW, just join that guild then leave whenever you want. As simple as that.

[Vossel]

In my experience MMORPG are basically gear orientated if ya wanted otherwise I suggest a MOBA, EW is a broken system no matter how you sugar coat it random missions only make it worse simply be that lucky guy with poke missions and survive missions and you'll win. When a guild goes 0 kills and several deaths and wins EW ya know the system is broken not to mention Dragon Fights. As for the actual topic relating mercenaries just make mercenaries unable to hit the core even with attack phase. For dragon fights simply put 5 dragons each island all with separate and equal HP values pretty much increasing the difficulty by 5x.

sure it is gear orientated or do you want it the way that every guild equals another in strength? Those who worked of paid for their gear are rewarded with dealing more dmg and recieving less from others. Besides the Random missions prevent from the stuff that happened with the kryos maps back then were people just picked the easiest to get the highest reward in the shortest time. Sure you have to adjust those quests and remove core attack because it is useless, but if you could pick the quest you would most likely see only arches and thiefs left in emporia who just pick an easy quest do it and run to pick the next easy one and run again with their high movementspeed. Emporia war should not be a comparison of strengh of the members, otherwise you could just hang out a list with which strong people are in which guild and you would already know which guild would win. You can compare emporia war with a real war, if you outsmart the enemy you can win even with lower gear and less people.

 

I agree with your idea for the dragon fights but for the emporia war i stick to my idea mentioned earlier.

[Apocryphos]

Besides the Random missions prevent from the stuff that happened with the kryos maps back then were people just picked the easiest to get the highest reward in the shortest time.

 That never stopped elements dungeons from being the same thing every run.

Sure you have to adjust those quests and remove core attack because it is useless, but if you could pick the quest you would most likely see only archers and thieves left in emporia who just pick an easy quest do it and run to pick the next easy one and run again with their high movement speed.

Missions in general are stupid I'm not saying remove them just increase the reward for achieving kills, simply because the mentality of EW at the moment is run and complete missions. Missions should be a bonus not an end all be all type of thing.

Emporia war should not be a comparison of strengh of the members, otherwise you could just hang out a list with which strong people are in which guild and you would already know which guild would win. You can compare emporia war with a real war, if you outsmart the enemy you can win even with lower gear and less people.
 
I agree with your idea for the dragon fights but for the emporia war i stick to my idea mentioned earlier.

I'd rather not compare emporia war to real war, cause the do whatever possible to win type of mindset doesn't sit well with me, we have rules for emporia war. You don't see the US using chemical gases in modern warfare now? Lower gear people less people I'd say they're ignorant for trying to come in thinking they can win w/o any prep work, like Ethiopia waging war with the US. ESPECIALLY now that elements has been balanced and is a cap that's achieve-able through grinding and NOT RNG.
 
But I see your point in asking for a "balanced" system where everyone's equal and missions are all RNG and getting the core attack. Then why not go for 5 separate cores for each island so there's better chances of winning, obviously revamping the mission system and maybe quadrupling the hp of the core for each island.

If you wanna help a guild with EW, just join that guild then leave whenever you want. As simple as that.

Cause cooldown times to rejoin guilds. 1day to join a different guild 4 days to join the same guild.
But then again this could work a group can make a guild join EW all leave the guild and make another for next week just as easy, but since they're creating a guild again this would fall under the punishable rule called ladder manipulation. While If a group/guild(not in the tournament) mercs for a guild( that's in the tournament ) and carries them and does it again for a different guild. That simply falls under the mercing system and doesn't count as ladder manipulation, even more so if the group was guildless.

Edited by Apocryphos, 30 October 2016 - 06:44 PM.

[Onyzer]

@Apocryphos :

 

I do agree that opening mercenary is double-edged. But the fact is that I've already seen small guilds winning just by applying to the tournament and wait for mercenaries to come and play for them. As I already said, it is guild vs. guild, if players want to play large pvp without being in a guild which participate to Emporia War then there is BattleSquare.

 

@Vossel :

 

Yes, Emporia War is gear-oriented. But actually once you can stay alive more than 1 or 2 seconds when being spammed by enemies it is enough to participate to the matches. Because the system how it is now is that you just need to stack points by running or waiting in a corner while you don't have feasible mission. So, yes, there is a part of strategy, yes, the gear has to be important, but the actual system is obsolete. The values has to be balanced if there isn't any way to make the system working as is should. Make missions giving less points, mostly for the "Use X skill" missions which are easy and give almost twice the points than -for example- "Kill all enemies", increase the core's health or the points given when you kill someone.

 

 

I'm going off topic from my own topic but here is how I think Emporia War should be :

Only attack/defense system, but in the same time. You have to kill the enemies' core to win, but defend yours to not lose.

Removing the points system, since that's the thing that makes the actual Emporia War boring. This will be direct fights which will need strategy : who has to attack, who has to defend ? This will be a real-time strategy adjusting battle, and not only current strategies like "get more points than the enemies and camp a zone as 5".

Guilds will need teamwork to win, and a variety of classes wouldn't be an encumbrance anymore.

Maybe making different cores with separated HP bars and you need to destroy every cores to win. What I'm saying here is just a suggestion, and is just a base : for a fully working and pleasing system we of course need to go deeper.

 

But this is still the same problem, making a rework of Emporia War takes time and the Dragon Saga team is small. But in my opinion this rework has to be done since Emporia War, and PvP in general, is a a goal for most of the players.

[Vossel]

I first talk about the mercs in my system then about the system at all

Now to the mercs in this system: mercs are meant to be hired fighter who just defend those who they get paid by. So the mecs should not be able to hit the cores in any way but they should be there to defend the guild that is able to hit the core, to prevent an overflow of mercs the mercs can only join if the guild that hires got less members than the other on the field, and that people can invite certain players as mercs so that they will get for sure in if they got less members and their place is not taken by a random player, also to prevent the spawncamping by the mercs they should not be able into the spawn on island 2-4 and on island 1&5 the defender should have like 1 second invincibility

 

How about keeping the 5 island we got right now but changing them a bit into 3 instead of 2 part islands, then in the middle part there is a core you have to destroy. Guild A starts at island1 and Guild B at Island5, both meet at island 3 because that core is not captured by any guild so far, the guild that gets the lasthit on that neutral core gets it as his, if one guild captured the core on island 3 the war switches to either island 2&3 or 4&3 depending on which guild got the core 3. Now it depends on which guild is better in keeping their core and destroying the enemy core.

if one guild reaches island 1 or 5 the attacking guild starts on the first part, the defending one in the middle part and their core is on the last part of that island, so if the attack guild manages to break through the defender will be able to attack them from the back while they have to attack the core infront of them. If the attack team doesnt manage to take down the core in 5 minutes after reaching the last island they should start again on island 3 to give the other guild a chance for a comeback but if the attacking guild is still stronger they will make it to the core again, this is kind of a reward for the defender for holding on the last island for so long.

[Onyzer]

I do agree that if there are mercenaries, they should only be able to provide help, not a win.

 

About how you imagine the Emporia War, I like that domination thing !

[Agitodesu]

Emporia war should be completely reworked later down the line with what everyone can agree on and alter things that players disagree on, obviously players with very high end gear will give inputs that players without gear could give input on and likewise they can give info on how they fit in. Guilds play a major role in the game as a community part. Guild wars are just a pvp thing on the side that guilds can "officially" do as a group in game that is promoted. I know minor changes will keep some players content, but bigger changes will attract more players other than the ones already addicted to the game or old players.

[Onyzer]

Emporia war should be completely reworked later down the line with what everyone can agree on and alter things that players disagree on, obviously players with very high end gear will give inputs that players without gear could give input on and likewise they can give info on how they fit in. Guilds play a major role in the game as a community part. Guild wars are just a pvp thing on the side that guilds can "officially" do as a group in game that is promoted. I know minor changes will keep some players content, but bigger changes will attract more players other than the ones already addicted to the game or old players.

 

That's what I'm trying to make understand with all my Emporia War related topics/posts.