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Doram VS GX/Gene in MVPing


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#1 CadburyChocolate

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Posted 26 February 2017 - 11:13 PM

so how is doram compared to GX/Gene in MVPing?


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#2 Zayaan

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Posted 27 February 2017 - 03:33 AM

so how is doram compared to GX/Gene in MVPing?

 

Doesn't look that good to me without Kiels.


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#3 CadburyChocolate

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Posted 27 February 2017 - 03:57 AM

Doesn't look that good to me without Kiels.

+15 HWB + New Wave Sunglasses? still not?


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#4 Ashuckel

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Posted 27 February 2017 - 04:08 AM

that's simply 1 kiel effect, and a single kiel doesnt do that much for the spam, aka DPS


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#5 yamasakai90

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Posted 27 February 2017 - 04:09 AM

so how is doram compared to GX/Gene in MVPing?

 

For now Gene/DD Crit GX would still outdamage the average doram. We are talking about high end gears here.


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#6 CadburyChocolate

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Posted 27 February 2017 - 04:13 AM

sigh, if only there was kiel's available in thor ;/, thanks for the inputs!


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#7 Fuuton

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Posted 27 February 2017 - 09:05 AM

lol @ people already looking into kiels for cat when its 40b? 50b? cheaper to time the spam correctly. there's a way to do it which involves walking a couple of cells after the 1st PP and then timing the 2nd PP to match the (potential) aftercasting of the first PP's second attack.

you guys sure are quick to take the pay to win route... :hmm:


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#8 Tofu

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Posted 27 February 2017 - 09:16 AM

That's not how after cast delay works.

 

PP has a 1 second delay. Without kiels and without additional procs, you're getting at best 1 PP per second. There's no movement trick you can use to reduce that, the server refuses to allow you to perform any other skill during that time.

 

Assuming best case scenario, where every PP always triggers the double cast, you can get at best 2 PP per second, and 3 during the first second.

 

At rest -> PP 1 -> wait for 1 second -> PP 2 + PP 1 (double cast) -> wait 1 second -> PP 3 + PP 2 (double cast) -> wait 1 second -> ...

 

 

With kiels, the pattern is not so simple, because the double casts always occur 1 second after the initial cast. With 2 kiels, you're able to fit 2 normal casts in before the double casts start to trigger.

 

Even assuming the worst case scenario while using kiels (no double casts trigger, ever), you're getting in 2.5 PP per second. That's still better than the best case scenario without kiels.


Edited by Tofu, 27 February 2017 - 09:25 AM.

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#9 CadburyChocolate

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Posted 27 February 2017 - 04:19 PM

lol @ people already looking into kiels for cat when its 40b? 50b? cheaper to time the spam correctly. there's a way to do it which involves walking a couple of cells after the 1st PP and then timing the 2nd PP to match the (potential) aftercasting of the first PP's second attack.

you guys sure are quick to take the pay to win route... :hmm:

Obviously we are taking about maximizing DPS,

and so talking about kiel is already pay to win? 


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#10 Fuuton

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Posted 28 February 2017 - 04:26 AM

talking about kiel isn't pay to win no, but actually using it on a regular basis just to prove how much of a badass you can be with your cat.. that is PTW behavior. not that im calling either of you out on that or anything. maybe you are just having a simple conversation about testing/dps and that's fine. but you could autofollow a stringer w/ 150 int and achieve a very similar effect. and yeah kiels might still be better than a 150 int stringer (or even better yet with one), and its fine to test that, but end game why bother? unless its for woe i guess... but in theory you'd be surrounded by a couple of sets of strings at least.

 

i mean if you want bragging rights then i dont really have an argument for that either but you should already know that with kiels you'd still have the same problem with strings or without either, depending on what you're doing. if you're strings or kiels + standing still and using PP then you're fine with the spam. if you're moving, with or without either kiels and/or strings you're still gonna have that problem of image delay hitlock. as far as i know that image delay isnt even based on stats or delay reductions of any kind (while moving). i've seen the vid of dude standing still killing time holder and thats a good example of what seems to be kiels while not moving. ive been in 150 int strings and tried to attack while moving and i find it easier to not have no delay because at least without stringsyou can read the pattern. with strings it's a nightmare to time.

im just being practical here lol.


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#11 Ashuckel

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Posted 28 February 2017 - 05:48 AM

Thats not what p2w is '-'
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#12 CadburyChocolate

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Posted 28 February 2017 - 06:12 AM

 

Dude, that's definitely not the definition of pay to win, you should research about it before talking smart about it... And oh i can taste the bitterness in your post. I even doubt if those people who responded to my post about kiels spent a penny in acquiring it. And yeah you're so bitter  :heh:

 

P.S I'm hunting kiel as we speak, perks of being on a server will low pop


Edited by CadburyChocolate, 28 February 2017 - 06:19 AM.

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#13 Fuuton

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Posted 28 February 2017 - 02:00 PM

How so? Last I checked Kiels don't come from the Kafra Shop. If you meant zeny2win or play2win, then that's ok.

 

Kiels are not better than 150 Int strings, but they're much more convenient than dragging a stringer with you everywhere. The maximum amount of cast delay reduction a Summoner can acquire through gear is 85% (50% from +15 Kiel HWHB, 30% from Kiel mid, 5% from +7 Lounge Suit). We're not counting the potential 16-20% from accessories because of Chubby Earthworms. + Why would Kiels be better with a stringer? >100% reduction doesn't do anything.

 

I don't see a reason to move when spamming PP, except while leveling. Majority of MVPs that a Summoner can kill should die within Stoop's duration, or their threatening skills have a lengthier cooldown than Stoop (e.g: Time Holder and Faceworm Queen).

 

I'm not saying Summoners can't MVP without Kiels, I just think they're much weaker than well geared GXes and Genes without them. I'll admit they're overall cheaper to gear for MVPs than both GX and Gene though.

- i didnt mean in a sense that they come from kafra shop, i was referring to P2W RMTs because they still exist and occur under the table and there are those types of people who would and will go after P2W kiels with more ambition just because of how overpowered cats already are. the fact that people are beefing up the kiel talk for cats/woe makes this more of a possibility, which is why i laugh at it and attack it.

- thanks for the clarification on the direct HW formula, i dont do well with them so i'm lazy to bother. i'm more of a direct numbers/effect/damage tester w/ actual gear on the spot rather than formula calculations in advance. i already knew 150 int strings = no delay, but i wasn't sure if kiels played any influence in altering that in stacking effect because i don't have them to test myself and because my stacking knowledge of every various gear/skill combo isnt complete. if it was, i'd be an elitist like cadbury.

- i was thinking leveling too for sure. it already is a pain moving around multi casting PP. even w/ no delay strings. while i'll admit that most mvp's are easy enough to gear for reduction wise (stuff like waterball) - enough to stand in one place the entire time, making kiels viable - there are still times when you're probably not going to want to do that. you might be able to stoop earthquake but a few valks attacking you alongside randgris hitting you with holy light and LoV is going to mess with you regardless of your kiels and gear redux.

You said it yourself, summoner shouldnt have trouble killing most MvPs because of stoop. you also said that gx and gene are stronger which is also true. so with that logic, why bother with kiel? if you can easily kill mvp's with decent gear reductions and damage then you don't need kiels to do it on a cat. if you have to go through that much trouble to kill something that would take an mvp card just to accomplish on a cat, then you're better off using another class.

and cadbury, if you honestly think that i'm going to get bitter about being proven wrong on a couple of points in a forum post, then you're more ignorant about life than i am about the effects of kiel's delay stacking options. silly human~


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#14 CadburyChocolate

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Posted 28 February 2017 - 03:59 PM

 

Yes you are bitter. and what's wrong with talking about kiels, and NO, im not the one who started talking about kiels.

But then again, what's wrong with having kiels, we know that the class is OP as it is and is really viable even without kiels but i dont think there is something wrong with talking about kiels to make it even more OP, it seems you are very bitter about it..

Aren't we allowed to talk about it now? You're the one being very unreasonable here. I'd imagine you'd be posting on every class subsection about how we dont need items just because we can kill most MVPs with Eden gears and elemental armor alone. You are the one being silly here


Edited by CadburyChocolate, 28 February 2017 - 04:09 PM.

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#15 Fuuton

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Posted 28 February 2017 - 04:10 PM

Yes you are bitter. and what's wrong with talking about kiels, and NO, im not the one who started talking about kiels.

But then again, what's wrong with having kiels, we know that the class is OP as it is and is really viable even without kiels but i dont think there is something wrong with talking about kiels to make it even OP, it seems you are very bitter about it..

Aren't we allowed to talk about it now? You're the one being very unreasonable here. I'd imagine you'd be posting on every class subsection about how we dont need items just because we can kill most MVPs with Eden gears and elemental armor alone. You are the one being silly here

 

i don't think you understand what the word bitter means, in accuracy.

i shared my opinion on the subject the same way you did. i think it's a dumb move given the current resources available to any player, unless you already have one and want to test for the heck of it. but because i pose an opinion that doesn't correlate with your current conversation, suddenly you want to make me out to be like the guy who thinks that no one should talk about it at all? tell me, how's that viable? when did i ever say "no one should talk about kiels on cats"? don't throw words in my mouth.

also.. if you really believe what you imagine then go mindlessly search through every class subsection and waste your time checking. that's a ridiculous assumption lol.


 


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#16 Ashuckel

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Posted 28 February 2017 - 04:14 PM

GX/Gene are stronger than a cat, a cat without delay reduction, not a stacked up one.

And as any other class, getting something as a Kiel is just an improvement, a pretty big one for Summoner. It's perfectlt possible to play without one, it just gets stronger with one. Same as let's say LK card on GX, Kiel/Fenrir on gene, kiel/tao on RK, etc.

Edited by Ashuckel, 28 February 2017 - 04:17 PM.

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#17 CadburyChocolate

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Posted 28 February 2017 - 04:36 PM

 

You are the one who dont understand the words you use, in accuracy.. 

 

Nothing is wrong with you in giving idea with about stringer , or animation canceling through moving around picky pecking (if i got that right) but saying that they are going to pay to win route with kiel, and us talking and having kiels is just for bragging rights, really? <Snip>

 

And oh, for my last statement,nothing there is an assumption, that is not how you interpret it... if you didnt get it, allow me to expound. it means " you should post on every class section on about how wrong they are and pay to win they are especially on guides suggesting high end gears for optimum/maximizing damage if you should insist on that idea since there is a lot of MVPs killable with cheapso gears and maybe even naked"

 

 

VModCinnamon:
Please do not self edit using moderation voice, it falls under Mod/staff impersonation. Portion of post has been removed, thank you.

 


Edited by VModCinnamon, 28 February 2017 - 04:56 PM.
Removed portion of post

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#18 Fuuton

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Posted 01 March 2017 - 01:26 PM

:yawn: :yawn: :yawn: :yawn:


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#19 xMLGzus

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Posted 01 March 2017 - 01:31 PM

Get him Cad XD 


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#20 Fuuton

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Posted 01 March 2017 - 02:51 PM

Get him Cad XD 

 

what are you, his cheerleader squad?


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