26 replies to this topic

[Nobility]

-Aerial Flurry on marksman conflicts with shootdown for when you manually cast the skill without having it put in ur skill bar. What I mean by this is that jumping then pressing x+any directional arrow key can trigger both these skills where users often cast the wrong one by mistake. It would be great to just make it so u cant manually use aerial flurry and force users to place it into their skill bars to use. It'd actually make the skill somewhat viable in aerial escapes or knockdown chains as it can finally be consistently pulled off with accuracy and precision. This is more of a QoL improvement than a buff so I dont see why it shouldn't be changed since the same was done for another skill in the warrior class tree years back.

 

-Rather than having gatling rush be cancelled (already requested and denied in the past), how about increasing the scaling of the skill's speed to around 180% ( just an example)  so the animation finishes faster? The skill is already useable as is, though this slight buff would vary the way this skill is used e.g. an opener rather than a finisher of a combo. I honestly don't care if this get's buffed or not, just a thought to put out there for those that wanted a cancellable gatling but got denied in the past. It is still undeniably one of the best PvE skills and is probably equally good in PvP when used in the right situations so there's that to consider too.

 

-Flashbang for the longest time, has caused players to lag walk where this issue doesnt only apply exclusively to players playing outside of NA. To fix this, giving flashbang a stun effect would prevent this from occuring and has probably already been suggested in the past here somewhere. Rather than necro posting an old thread that's probably been forgotten, bringing it up again here might get more feed back on this particular issue and solution. A stun might not even be the best solution out there too but is the most obvious one when thinking off the top of ur head. 

 

EDIT:

I lied, aerial flurry is fine as it is. 

Edited by Nobility, 30 June 2017 - 02:40 AM.

[Apocryphos]

I'm a simple man, I see destroyer thread, I post! Don't wanna repeat what's already been posted so I'll add to the list. Still hyped about the 600% cd cap on destroyer.

 

Bow Mastery should add range to arrows!
 
Fire Grenade is superseded by N2 Ammunition so having a different type of grenade would be good but again probably out of reach for the developer atm.

Vulcan 300 has an enormous 120second cooldown for a 9 second duration a shorter cooldown around 30-60 seconds for a tier 3 skill seem's more reasonable, is probably doable for the developer
 
Atropine's cure 1 debuff is very disappointing additional levels to cure more debuffs at once, and possibly give more buffs at the cost of overdose debuffs.

 

Edited by Apocryphos, 29 June 2017 - 02:58 PM.

[Nobility]

"Bow Mastery should add range to arrows!"

 

I don't think this would be a good idea and I doubt atk range will ever be added to any class' passive even if it's just for the basic x atk. Though this is just my opinion. 

 

Fire Grenade is superseded by N2 Ammunition so having a different type of grenade would be good but again probably out of reach for the developer atm.

 

I mean, the skill does have that -15% max hp debuff as well as a -15hp/mp DoT for 18sec (Yes it's low but it's more of an added bonus over the top of the skill's own dmg). 

 

Vulcan 300 has an enormous 120second cooldown for a 9 second duration a shorter cooldown around 30-60 seconds for a tier 3 skill seem's more reasonable, is probably doable for the developer

 

30-60sec is a reasonable amount i agree. The skill is probably the equivilent of the sw's stand alone skill woodrush where that only has a 30sec CD with the ability to inflict several debuffs too making it waaaay better. Due to a destro's play style, it's also rarely used in a combo as most of them are air based. In terms of PvE, if it were to have a 60sec CD, it'd be used once every f1 run which seems pretty fair (assuming players r geared). At least that's what I think. 

 

Atropine's cure 1 debuff is very disappointing additional levels to cure more debuffs at once, and possibly give more buffs at the cost of overdose debuffs.

 

Well currently speaking, the skill caps out at 1/1 .  It could be further expanded upon by  having say an additional 2 lvls added to it where each lvl could cure another debuff. This way you'd actually need to spend more than the current 10 SP to get further benefits from it.  Also, as you've said the skill has it's down side where overdosing on the 3rd and 4th shot can drop ur hp down to around half of ur original hp so it somewhat balances itself out. 

[Apocryphos]

Fire grenade is max mp -15% at lv5 burning meanwhile n2 is lv20 with maxmp -40%  and sadly not hp% even if it were hp 15%, caused bomber lv5 is -22% max hp/mp along with  str/int/agi/hlt but only the base stats, a poor filler skill imo not worth the risk of getting super close to an enemy to try to land. 
Glad to see additional levels for Atropine was understandable.
 
On another matter small issues like throwing grenades in the air will root you to a pseudo ground, rather than going into a free fall which can be bypassed with dashing, but annoying nonetheless.

Edited by Apocryphos, 30 June 2017 - 09:40 AM.

[Nobility]

Right yeah, my bad. Caused bomber was the one I was thinking of.  As to how fire nade can be improved upon, the status eff could be changed to something else which the class doesnt already have in its kit. These could be  a freeze eff, petrify, dash jump block debuff or silence just to name a few off the top of my head. 

Edited by Nobility, 30 June 2017 - 03:51 PM.

[Silver19]

What do you guys think about replacing the fire grenade with an ice grenade? Or an ice rocket, chance to freeze an enemy or slow it down. I don't know the limitations the current devs have, but maybe it would be possible to change the fire debuff to freeze or something like that.   

[Bustincaps]

Changing Fire Grenade to a CC type skill would essentially just make it a Flashbang. I think it should be more important to focus on fixing the issues with Flashbang rather than completely changing a different skill to make it replace Flashbang. Adding a reliable stun to Flashbang would also open up combos for things like Autoshot and Vulcan (I know they can already be combo'd with, but not very reliably), making the proposed Vulcan cooldown reduction more relevant as well. 

 

Secondly, I don't like the idea of increasing X attack range. X spam is op enough already and any 5 year old can just hold down X... too ez.

 

Improving Atropine is a decent idea but keeping in mind that you can Atropine out of things like net seems pretty op, then adding the ability to remove a freeze trap debuff from the same Net combo and regain your m.speed in 1 quick skill cast might be too much of an edge over other classes. Big buffs like this should be saved for some of the weaker classes, and Destro is not one of the weaker classes. If it was done, though, I agree with the idea of adding skill levels to it rather than just changing it, so players must invest more SP to get the added benefits.

 

As far as buffing Gatling goes, attack speed scaling isn't too bad of an idea but that would also completely remove it from the arsenal of catching skills. Right now, Gatling is far from a choice catching skill but it can still be used in some cases (slower enemies, especially). It would add to comboing potential but take away from the overall versatility of the skill. Adding a very short stun (similar to Cossack's short stuns, but possibly even shorter or just add them to the first couple hits of the skill) to hold the enemy in place while the skill is still in its animation could work as long as the stun doesn't exceed the animation by too much. Moving on to another idea, adding a bleed to it would increase its usefulness at the beginning of rounds and make it worth the risk of yolo'ing a catch with it. I don't think anyone would keep running while getting shot up with a machine gun irl anyway, and they'd probably be left bleeding heavily as well....the logic makes sense for either proposal. Adding a bleed would also be a big PvE buff, which I'm not sure is necessary for the class, but it's something to think about.

 

Lastly, I know I'll be hated for beating a dead horse but Shootdown's cooldown is hella low and kind of makes people gravitate toward running around spamming ONLY that skill... food for thought. This would be a big nerf for 2 classes but would allow for the classes to be buffed in other areas like mentioned above without having to worry about the buffs being too op. It would also diversify the Archer classes a bit by forcing them to venture into the rest of their skill tree.

[Apocryphos]

Carpet Bombing should be instant cast cause the animation itself is really long not to mention launches aren't exactly helping the destroyer since aas and all the rockets don't do any substantial damage because the class gets a damage fall out for aas to 70% like the newly added xspam damage fall out but delayed launches are very welcomed.
 
Adding Stun's from what I've recalled is currently out of reach only the removal of cast times, knockdowns, flinch, homing. but the idea's are nice

 

I'd add a stun to self bomber as well considering how slow the animation is
 
As for fire grenade and caused bomber I'd revamp there effect to match the fire/dark effects of elements of  attack speed reductions and critical attack disabling, unlikely though.
 
As for shootdown, with no edge in mspd/aspd they're already extremely vulnerable being at the same speed as everyone, the skill is a god send at this point is what comes to mind destroyer kiting for snipe and trying to launch with rpg and rising arrow only to be disappointed by lag sensitivity of a single shot launch w/ no flinch unlike wolves/falcons.
 
Even the chain combo system anomalous combo's from what I've read shouldn't be as spam-able as they are atm but no one's complaining about that since it's an welcomed bug/wrong description.
Here's a gif of my destroyer doing →+z to ↓+z to ←+z to z that's 3 anomalous combo's.

 →+z to ↓+z to ←+z shouldn't even be possible by definition of an anomalous combo.

x

[Precrush]

Lastly, I know I'll be hated for beating a dead horse but Shootdown's cooldown is hella low and kind of makes people gravitate toward running around spamming ONLY that skill... food for thought. This would be a big nerf for 2 classes but would allow for the classes to be buffed in other areas like mentioned above without having to worry about the buffs being too op. It would also diversify the Archer classes a bit by forcing them to venture into the rest of their skill tree.

I wouldn't call it a dead horse if it's still quite literally running around the field. That's exactly the mindset I would root for, nerf and change skills that aren't well designed and make up for that somewhere else if necessary.

 

[Nobility]

I like the idea of giving the nades the dark/fire elemental effs rather than the examples i mentioned with the freeze, petrify etc.

 

 As to the guy who wanted a freeze eff (was an example i provided but one i don't agree on), the ability to do so would allow the class to synergise well with literally every class in group pvp when it comes to comboing. You can use skills such as snipe+ shootdown and not worry about ruining ur team mate's combo and would be giving the class too much with what they currently have in their kit. 

[1368019922]

With regards to the skill "Adrenaline", I feel that a simple standard-of-living improvement would be to increase the duration. With its rather long cast time and it lasting only 50s, it is very disruptive to the gameplay. I would like to suggest that just like Gladiator's Acceleration, it should last a few minutes. 

[Bustincaps]

Carpet Bombing should be instant cast cause the animation itself is really long not to mention launches aren't exactly helping the destroyer since aas and all the rockets don't do any substantial damage because the class gets a damage fall out for aas to 70% like the newly added xspam damage fall out but delayed launches are very welcomed.
 
Adding Stun's from what I've recalled is currently out of reach only the removal of cast times, knockdowns, flinch, homing. but the idea's are nice

 

I'd add a stun to self bomber as well considering how slow the animation is
 
As for fire grenade and caused bomber I'd revamp there effect to match the fire/dark effects of elements of  attack speed reductions and critical attack disabling, unlikely though.
 
As for shootdown, with no edge in mspd/aspd they're already extremely vulnerable being at the same speed as everyone, the skill is a god send at this point is what comes to mind destroyer kiting for snipe and trying to launch with rpg and rising arrow only to be disappointed by lag sensitivity of a single shot launch w/ no flinch unlike wolves/falcons.
 
Even the chain combo system anomalous combo's from what I've read shouldn't be as spam-able as they are atm but no one's complaining about that since it's an welcomed bug/wrong description.
Here's a gif of my destroyer doing →+z to ↓+z to ←+z to z that's 3 anomalous combo's.

 

I don't mind the cast time on carpet bombing, and it has probably the widest range in the game as far as active skills go (not counting Magnet or homing skills). It's a launch that can be air-spammed from. Making it insta-cast would change it from an ambush type skill to a very usable launch, which is pretty op considering the range once more. Again, I would recommend adding a bleed or other debuff to it instead, increasing the reward of yolo'ing a catch with it but still keeping the risk factor involved. At the moment, the risk outweighs the reward.

 

Moving on to self bomber, I see no reason to touch this skill due to the superarmor and ability to cancel the skill animation once you touch the ground.

 

Same with chaincombo... with X no longer flinching the enemy, I see it as perfectly balanced. The versatility of the Archer chaincombo system is also so fantastic that I would hate to see it lose some of its shine. It's also very underused from what I've seen in my time here and nerfing it further would push players toward Shootdown spamming as they pretend to be Usain Bolt.

 

Now, Shootdown... -sighs- I see mention of Kiting here. We can all admit it's an effective form of Archer PvP gameplay, but isn't this what we're trying to rid the game of? The forum is littered with complaints of players (I won't single out Archers here) running in BSQ, EW, and general PvP. You see Archers spamming traps and Shootdown with high m.speed on the daily. Enter multi PvP of any kind involving Archers, and you will most likely see someone voicing their frustration on this. I've PvPed pretty much every player on DS that actually PvPs, some of which do not catch with Shootdown (for fairness reasons), and they do just fine. I don't see a cooldown increase as being game breaking enough to ruin the Archer paths. It's equally as annoying as the spammability and easiness of Headspin. Let's also not forget the bugginess of this skill's range (comparable to Cross Cut, even) when lag is involved. Anyone else care to share their opinions on this skill, please? I'm interested to hear.

 

You can use skills such as snipe+ shootdown and not worry about ruining ur team mate's combo and would be giving the class too much with what they currently have in their kit. 

 

Agreed.

 

With regards to the skill "Adrenaline", I feel that a simple standard-of-living improvement would be to increase the duration. With its rather long cast time and it lasting only 50s, it is very disruptive to the gameplay. I would like to suggest that just like Gladiator's Acceleration, it should last a few minutes. 

 

Agreed. I'm surprised this was not changed long ago tbh.

Edited by Bustincaps, 04 July 2017 - 10:34 AM.

[Apocryphos]

Carpet Bombing's range is one the largest but it's effectiveness isn't even close to what the other skills do, nor does it synergize well with other player's, destroyer's air game already receives a -30% damage fall off since new origin it's still a high risk no reward skill, even if the cast time is removed there is still the animation. Some classes aren't blessed with enormous amounts of attack to offset what elements do against full resist.
 
When did the staff explicitly state they wanted to get rid of this kiting mindset? With the introduction of mspd cap that is achievable by every class who can blame destroyer to adopt a passive aggressive game play. I on the other hand think that an increase in cooldown for shootdown will promote the mindset, since the destroyer doesn't have anything as safe as shootdown, actually the class itself doesn't have any stopping power outside of the easily contested/avoidable/ soporific and the buggy/premature/laggy flash-bang even then there stopping power relys on the errors of enemies like bad air recoveries etc.  I'd gladly jump off the kiting mentality if I had the same stopping power and safety as skills like barbarian/crosscut/broom/gust just anything that can't be recovered by pressing c , doesn't have a start up time  or flight time and doesn't lag walk at full mspd.  I'm all for an increase shootdown cooldown if the devteam can provide a filler skill with even 1/2 its usability , but truth be told skills creation is out of reach atm.

With regards to the skill "Adrenaline", I feel that a simple standard-of-living improvement would be to increase the duration. With its rather long cast time and it lasting only 50s, it is very disruptive to the gameplay. I would like to suggest that just like Gladiator's Acceleration, it should last a few minutes.

 

Definitely, Agreed It becomes really easy to catch a destroyer that has to rebuff every minute. I'm happy as long as I can maintain it indefinitely. seems very achievable as well.

[Nobility]

Right now, Gatling is far from a choice catching skill but it can still be used in some cases (slower enemies, especially). It would add to comboing potential but take away from the overall versatility of the skill. Adding a very short stun (similar to Cossack's short stuns, but possibly even shorter or just add them to the first couple hits of the skill) to hold the enemy in place while the skill is still in its animation could work as long as the stun doesn't exceed the animation by too much.

The problem with gatling lies in how players have built their characters thus far in the meta and how things weren't thought through when the previous devs added all those mspeed items. Everyone is running so much mspeed that they're able to ignore flinches completely or run a large distance before the flinch actually takes effect (even with the cap). This issue applies to a lot of other skills too such as arrow shower (hunter skill) and I've gone bear (gladiator skill) which makes them inferior to a lot of other available skills in their kit. Rather than giving the skill a stun to address the issue (which someone said isn't currently possible), having the skill apply a mspeed debuff to make it so players have no more than 300mspeed or something would do just fine (just an example).  The debuff would remain only for the duration of the skill and no more than that.  Flashbang could also be fixed in a similar way if a stun can't be added and may or may not fix the lag walk problem. This is all theoretical though and is based solely off of my own observation. A slow player can't escape whilst a fast one can. Lag walking cuz of ping is a completely different issue and can't be fixed in any way however. 

 

Even the chain combo system anomalous combo's from what I've read shouldn't be as spam-able as they are atm but no one's complaining about that since it's an welcomed bug/wrong description.

With how the chaincombos work, the player is always moving in a linear path which makes it very predictable. Any competant player would easily be able to hit them in the face with a rising arrow or shootdown and is probably y nothing's been said about it so it's not really a problem. However, that doesn't mean that it shouldn't be changed if it is indeed a bug and not an error in the description. I don't care either way since it doesn't affect me much and is my own biased opinion. 

I'm all for an increase shootdown cooldown if the devteam can provide a filler skill with even 1/2 its usability , but truth be told skills creation is out of reach atm.

Skill creation is out of reach though skill modication/editting is certainly possible. If a  mspeed debuff were to be added to certain skills that would bug out, it could potentially fix the issue and make them usable as a result. Would this be enough to warrant a CD increase on shootdown? It's just a suggestion. 

Edited by Nobility, 04 July 2017 - 04:30 PM.

[Apocryphos]

if I had the same stopping power and safety as skills like barbarian/crosscut/broom/gust just anything that can't be recovered by pressing c , doesn't have a *long* start up time  or flight time and doesn't lag walk at full mspd. 

Modification's I've seen have only been limited to removal of effect's,knockdown on sharpshooting, cast time and homing on smart shot(now helix shot). I've yet to see a change that adds to the behavior of an Active Skill. On deeper thought they did add super armor to  headspin/windmill ircc a whiles back.
If flash-bang is what you're referring too then no not only does it prematurely detonate in the air it also does not follow a proper flight path like HE grenade it also doesn't guarantee blind effect despite having the debuff.

Edited by Apocryphos, 04 July 2017 - 04:58 PM.

[Nobility]

The elemental effects had a mspeed debuff that had a very low chance of procing on atks. I'm sure it's possible to add them to skills.

[TurtleTuber]

Considering on how much dmg destroyer deals now, every new dmg buffs seems to be unreasonable.

A fix for flashbang would be nice and also 300 atk speed for chaincombos.

to add bleed to gatling together with the argument that if you would get hit irl you would bleed too makes no sense. Then you can add bleed to almost every skill ingame, also i dont see whats wrong with gatling. It has already a nice flinch and really good dmg.

Edited by TurtleTuber, 05 July 2017 - 10:55 PM.

[Apocryphos]

Just an FYI Turtle 270%  atkspd is a PVE cap there is a 300% atkspeed cap for pvp on destroyer, ever since the CD cap was raised to 600%.
 
The problem with gatling is it lacks stopping power, yes the flinch is there, but if you count the immobility time of the person being hit with gatling and the person shooting gatling their times are practically the same, and that's if they're not spamming some super armor skill to plow through or rolling away if they're knocked down. It's a usable skill nonetheless but lackluster at the same time, honestly the skill itself is  very hard to balance give it some stopping power and it'll be an easy link to sniping. I'd increase it's x axis range and call it a day, that way the flinch is still relevant and the destroyer has space to maneuver away when animation ends.

[TurtleTuber]

rly? destroyer got 300 as now? didnt see this

 

still cant find it

Edited by TurtleTuber, 06 July 2017 - 02:18 PM.

[Apocryphos]

Wasn't specified in the patch notes, can easily check in game though here's a screenshot
 
 

Edited by Apocryphos, 06 July 2017 - 02:48 PM.

[TurtleTuber]

if it wasnt in the patch notes was it a mistake? or on purpose?

 

nvm, thx for the info, thats brings destroyer back to where it was.

[Popcorn]

This option has already been added with the Arcadia 2 Update. It hasn't been announced because we were testing and as you can see it didn't work at the beginning. As soon as the tests are done we will announce that change.

 

[Apocryphos]

So you're capable of implementing different hard caps for pve and pvp now, definitely reassuring.

Edited by Apocryphos, 06 July 2017 - 06:57 PM.

[Popcorn]

We are still testing with this but theoretically yes (regarding ATK speed currently).

 

[Bustincaps]

to add bleed to gatling together with the argument that if you would get hit irl you would bleed too makes no sense. Then you can add bleed to almost every skill ingame, also i dont see whats wrong with gatling. It has already a nice flinch and really good dmg.

 

That logic was just a supporting logic, obviously, and wasn't even the main point. Thank you for taking it out of context, though. The actual suggestion (having nothing to do with whether or not a gun would make you bleed in real life...) was meant as an alternative to improving the skill's CC, making it a more worthwhile catch. Of course this wouldn't fix the issue of CC, but it would compensate for it. There is no denying that Gatling still has plenty of use; that was never in question, but rather making it more versatile was the idea. With the current m.speed meta and the high use of superarmor, flinch based catches have lost their effectiveness.

 

Modification's I've seen have only been limited to removal of effect's,knockdown on sharpshooting, cast time and homing on smart shot(now helix shot). I've yet to see a change that adds to the behavior of an Active Skill. On deeper thought they did add super armor to  headspin/windmill ircc a whiles back.
If flash-bang is what you're referring too then no not only does it prematurely detonate in the air it also does not follow a proper flight path like HE grenade it also doesn't guarantee blind effect despite having the debuff.

 

Is it safe to assume that we are limited to this simply because it's all we've seen thus far, though? Knockdowns and Superarmor to me seem similar to adding a stun; they're all status effects essentially, just not active ones that would appear at the top corner of your screen. If we can get feedback on this, it would allow for more productive balancing discussion on all of the classes.  -looks around for Popcorn-  

Edited by Bustincaps, 07 July 2017 - 08:18 AM.