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#1 Domeshot

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Posted 17 July 2017 - 10:55 PM

Hello!

 

So since none of the class balances updates have touched dragoon yet, I thought it'd be cool to add my two cents, and perhaps get some inputs from others. A really common thing I read is that: "Dragoon is balanced, but the rest of the classes are OP", and that's great and all, but that doesn't progress the class forward. I've personally played this game since about 2009/10 on and off, and have played all classes (except twins, not opening that jar), but surprisingly have always ended up on my dragoon/pally. It's a class I enjoy, but it's just difficult to make a case for it nowadays considering the state of other stronger classes. I've experienced all the phases that pallies have went through (I'm looking at you evade/block pally, and reflect pally), but it's probably time to revive it and at least make it somewhat viable without having to play it for years to be good at it. 

 

PVE:

 

I would honestly say dragoon PvE is fair, essentially you just flip on your clock and use rolling ground around the map. Mob clears are impressive, but boss kills not much. This is fine considering each class has their strengths, and I wouldn't expect pallies to be melting and shredding bosses like a mage or destroyer. Also, I'm aware you only really use POS for the resists, but I mean the set bonuses are really deterring. I wouldn't wish evade and block rate set bonuses on anyone, but the pally sets are boasting both. I have a stronger PvP bias, so I don't have much to say here.

 

PVP:

 

SO!... this is by no means an argument to #bringblockback, rather, how to make it viable in the current meta. 

 

I've played with a lot of ideas here in the past, and the current problem is that EVERY class does what we could do but better. For instance, we could go "tank pally", stack your ele resists, hlt, and mdef/def, but other classes can do that while putting out MUCH more damage out and cc. Plus, in PvE no one really needs a "tank" anymore because almost everyone in the endgame has so much health and mdef/def. I'm currently running nature and dark damage and the cards are just about maxed, and I can confirm, I do little to no damage to people using fire/ice only, let alone people with my same ele set up or all resist. The percentage of the damage is simply underwhelming. So to recap, we can just run around being a ball of health, while doing little no damage. 

 

i) BSQ/EW

 

So EW is another monster considering no one wants to have a pally in EW because they will allow for more do-able quests for the enemy guild, so that's probably up for another discussion. So lets move onto BSQ... I accept that pallies can be a low-damage dealer class, but how bout we enhance their ability to **support**. We have a ton of auras, a root we can go is to buff the auras or bring back time-reverse in group PvP. For time reverse, it would be cool if it would be allowed for EW/BSQ, but for half of cool down reduction and cast speed time so it won't be too OP (or cap the amount of players who get the buff). Or, buff the many auras we have to a very low percent of current stat. That way, there would be a demand to have pallies in both EW/BSQ. Further, a skill that could really be utilized is Revenge, and I know the people reading this probably died inside a bit, but hear me out. When I came back to this game awhile back and was trying to find a viable path for pallies, I dipped into revenge a bit for reflect pally. To no avail, I tried comboing it with Sacred Protection, which also didn't work. But honestly, that would be such an amazing combo if revenge and sacred protection worked together, and it would definitely fit into the "support pally" category, while tapping into increasing our damage output. The way it would work is you would cast your Sacred Protection on another member in group PvP, and as they take reduced damage from the skill which would be reflected to the pally, the damage received by the pally would be reflected to the damage dealer. As a result, you're useful as a support player, increasing your damage output, and utilizing the tankiness. On the Revenge note, it would be a really strong buff to pallies if revenge works on auto-attacks again (but to perhaps to nerfed percentages reflected). This would solve our underwhelming performance against invos and summoners, while putting our tankiness to use (I've attached skill descriptions to both these skills on the bottom since it's been awhile these were brought up). 

 

The only viable way I have right now in BSQ is to run around trying to ground lock and wait until a damage class shows up and cleans up. But this means we're restricted to launching enemies (all our damage is air-borne, but it's not very high, so I wait for someone else to kill them). We essentially have to become ground lockers spamming crosscut, broom, sword dance, x-chain, and hammer and repeat to be at all viable, but this is difficult considering it's group PVP, and you can bet your life an enemies going to interrupt you after 1 rotation of skills. IMO, this is no way to play or have fun in a place where many call their "end-game". 

 

ii) Room PvP

 

I'm comfortable with the state pallies are in terms of room pvp, however, I've learned this class inside out and have dedicated the time to learn the crazy 80 key combos and stuff. I believe time-reverse being allowed here plays a large role for us to be viable in room pvp, which allows for a wider combo selection. In essence, it's not very friendly to learn compared to other classes (maybe for the exception ninja?). However, the "very little to no damage" is still such a big factor considering I have to run around and hopefully kill my opponent after 8-9 combos if they are the same element, whereas they need 2-3 most of the time. I believe for room pvp, if a pally puts in the effort, he'll be able to beat whatever class, so hopefully someone else can input on this who sees a glaring issue I'm missing. I feel like my statement here for room pvp can't be made in group pvp, we simply get stomped there no matter who you are.



In summary:

PvE 8/10. Mob clears amazing, maybe buff our many auras to have an impact instead of base %. Boss killing is meh but it makes sense.

Armor sets 4/10. Maybe change POS set bonuses or future sets to be more in sync with the viability of skills i.e. no evade and block rate

Room PvP 8/10. Really subjective here, all I do is room pvp and I practiced a lot, but time-reverse allows for a better experience.

BSQ 5/10. Allow a nerfed time reverse here to a low number of allies, buff auras, revenge and sacred protection combo maybe. My standpoint is to buff the pally's ability to support others.

EW 0/10 <-- No data cause no one wants a pally in EW anyways

 

 

 

Sacred Protection:

At Lv. 1 – “Skill only can be used when there is target party member in range. When use this skill, you sacrifice oneself to take party member’s damage decreased by 10%.”
At Lv. 1 – “Skill only can be used when there is target party member in range. When use this skill, you sacrifice oneself to take party member’s damage decreased by 30%.”
At Lv. 1 – “Skill only can be used when there is target party member in range. When use this skill, you sacrifice oneself to take party member’s damage decreased by 50%.”
 
Revenge: (I believe these were nerfed, old page)
At Lv. 1 – “Cast thorn shield around oneself which consumes 12 MP per 2 seconds. Attacker receives back 30% damage”
At Lv. 3 – “Cast thorn shield around oneself which consumes 12 MP per 2 seconds. Attacker receives back 50% damage”
At Lv. 5 – “Cast thorn shield around oneself which consumes 12 MP per 2 seconds. Attacker receives back 70% damage”

 


Edited by Domeshot, 17 July 2017 - 10:56 PM.

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#2 TurtleTuber

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Posted 17 July 2017 - 11:53 PM

Dragoons deal quite alot damage to me in 1o1 pvp in a singly combo. Alone double stormblade is painfull together with the ranged knockback skills, the wide aoe chaincombo stun and the impervision which makes Dragoons hard to catch.

In a normal BSQ without 20+ people and less maged they are doing okay i would say. But in today crowded mages dominated BSQ it quite hard to play DK, even more since many skills are made for air combos.
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#3 Domeshot

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Posted 19 July 2017 - 12:27 AM

I agree, I think that's kinda of tailoring to my point about room pvp being fine for dragoon, but it just feels like we could do with some buffs in the group pvp department


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#4 TurtleTuber

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Posted 19 July 2017 - 08:44 AM

real question is if dragoon should get its tank role back with a hard nerfed version of the guard mode. guard mode itself would make dragoon attractive for BSQ and Group PvP again. But current Guard Mode would be just too OP together with the other Dragoon Skills in 1o1 PvP.


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#5 Apocryphos

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Posted 19 July 2017 - 01:57 PM

The Barricade Mode is pretty decent, it was really only broken when mspd wasn't capped, enabling that skill along with roach life would make pally a better flag carrier. When the dev team manages to get blockrate up and running it'll be very compelling to stack since it reduces total damage by % amount on the item side it's limited to 20% block damage ircc so shield mastery should add block damage and parry should increase block rate, for ninja katar blocking should add a little bit of both, and a fix for the issue of elemental elga weapon's not having any blockrate/blockdamage at all.


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#6 Domeshot

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Posted 19 July 2017 - 02:49 PM

Well at the moment roach life is enabled in BSQ which is nice, but I could see how barricade could solve a lot of our issues as well. I feel like there's so much routes to buff pallies, it's just a matter of dev team picking one hahaha. I common theme I've noticed in the class nerfs so far is simply toning down the effects of skills in PvP (i.e. magnet for invokers), I don't see why it wouldn't be possible to tone down barricade for PvP as well. 


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#7 TurtleTuber

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Posted 19 July 2017 - 07:18 PM

Hopefully we wont get a step backwards to block rate and evade era. No one who participate in PvP wants luckbased factors. Block rate should be actually 0% and evade rate too.
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#8 Apocryphos

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Posted 19 July 2017 - 09:50 PM

I guess being able to block statuses might be bad cause ircc If block activates on let's say rocket punch the stun won't go through.


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#9 Popcorn

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Posted 19 July 2017 - 10:41 PM

No one who participate in PvP wants luckbased factors. 

 

So you think we should set Critical Rate (Final Critical Rate) to 0% as well?  :p_conf:

 

I guess being able to block statuses might be bad cause ircc If block activates on let's say rocket punch the stun won't go through.

 

I agree to this. Such behavior should never return. I am fully aware how OP the old system was.


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#10 TurtleTuber

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Posted 20 July 2017 - 01:43 AM

So you think we should set Critical Rate (Final Critical Rate) to 0% as well?  :p_conf:

 

 

I agree to this. Such behavior should never return. I am fully aware how OP the old system was.

 

 

just saying (if you dont know) crits dont decide if you are able to catch/ start and end a combo. but blockrate and evade rate does :p_omg:  :p_omg:  


Edited by TurtleTuber, 20 July 2017 - 02:06 AM.

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#11 Popcorn

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Posted 20 July 2017 - 03:58 AM

No one who participate in PvP wants luckbased factors. 

 

 

just saying (if you dont know) crits dont decide if you are able to catch/ start and end a combo. but blockrate and evade rate does :p_omg:  :p_omg:  

 

What does your statement about luck based factors have to do with combo? Just saying (if you don't know) that you talked generally about luck based factors in PvP and I just explained to you that crit rate is also a luck based factor.

 

My suggestion is to think before posting and not to answer to something anyone else said without knowing what you actually wrote. 

 

But as always it looks like you feel the need to post just for the sake of posting. I want to make you happy by letting you post the last word here. Go on.


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#12 5143121023173906760

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Posted 20 July 2017 - 04:37 AM

I think you guys misunderstood each other.

Popcorn, there's no need for you to be mean. For once TutleTuber didn't try to offend you at all. So it would be great if you guys don't play with words and leave your quarrels somewhere else before this goes too far.

Of course I mean this ti TurtleTuber aswell. No jealous here ! ;)
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#13 TurtleTuber

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Posted 20 July 2017 - 04:37 AM

critical rate might be luck based but doesnt affect pvp in such a big way. since YOU can lower the damage input of your opponent. Also i were clearly talking about the ability to hit your opponent and that shouldnt be a gamble (didnt think that that was hard to understand). Everyone who did pvp back then knows how broken it is to play with evade and block since it doesnt requires the slightest skill. Even 20% block rate is ridiculous overpowered. that are 20% super super armor which just completely ignore the opponents skill and that would be in other words every 5th hit. So if you want to rocket punch your opponent every 5th time he will break out of your combo or you wouldnt be able to start a combo at all. Same goes for launching / knockbacks (which are if you didnt know, no status effects) but important for catching and comboing. Now count that to the normal miss chance of skills and to crazy soul or impervision. there you go. 

 

<snip>


Edited by Dragonlark, 20 July 2017 - 06:41 AM.

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#14 Dragonlark

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Posted 20 July 2017 - 06:44 AM

Please know that further off topic remarks will be removed, and multiple issues of this kind given after a warning will result in being placed on moderation from the forums, or temporary forum suspension.


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#15 Domeshot

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Posted 26 July 2017 - 01:26 PM

So coming from July 26th path notes: 

 

Skill Changes

 

Knight – Body Activation
The skill Body Activation now gives additional 1%/2%/3%/4%/5%/6%/7%/8%/9%/10% Final Damage Amplification

 

 

I honestly think this was a brilliant touch to not only pallies but other struggling classes as well (also provides an incentive to monstercard hunt!). I understand that all these nerfs/buffs are an ongoing effort to balance the game, so I was curious about a GM's opinion about re-visiting the skill "barricade" for battle square. I dont think it should be allows in room pvp strictly because it could get abused easily, however, for battle square I think it could be relevant. I brought this up to some guildies and they laughed about how OP it was in the past, and I agree. So I was wondering if it's possible to implement a nerfed version as a trial run. Perhaps a 30% reduction in both the dmg reduction and slow healing effects (similar to the invoker magnet changes).  I honestly think with this change it would rebalance pallies in bsq. As much as I appreciate the damage amplification this patch, I don't think dragoons are equipped to be damage dealers, rather, it would be more effective to reclaim our tank/support role.

 

Edited by Domeshot, 26 July 2017 - 01:27 PM.

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#16 Nmrud

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Posted 27 July 2017 - 11:49 PM

Goons got nerfed the s____ down from it recent glory. So many nerfed this char have suffered. This char should be normalized, the block rate is a joke. For being a char with a shield the purpose was and should be to block attacks with some higher rate. The calculation of block rate is wrong or bugged, because at a certain point the block rate bonuses dont add up.

 

Nobody plays a goon anymore, any X-spam char goes first.

 

The biggest nerf for Goon is yet to come


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#17 Domeshot

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Posted 28 July 2017 - 08:44 PM

This char should be normalized, the block rate is a joke. For being a char with a shield the purpose was and should be to block attacks with some higher rate. The calculation of block rate is wrong or bugged, because at a certain point the block rate bonuses dont add up.

 

 

I was kind of trying to avoid the block rate convo because dragoons can honestly just do fine without it. I'm certain they aware it's not working as planned, and when it's fixed, it's fixed. Block rate and evade have a dark past in this game, and I would rather it be fixed over a longer period of time than rushed and completely broken. No point dwelling on it now when there can could be so many other solutions to make us more viable in the current state of the game AKA barricade, revenge, auras etc.


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#18 2829180421224205750

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Posted 02 June 2018 - 12:28 AM

No pain, no gain.

Before, they called pallies is noob, idiot, coward, stupid, dog, cat,..... because pallies spam Bear/Revenge/Imper/Clock/Barricade in PvP.

Now,  they still called pallies is noob, idiot, coward, stupid, dog, cat,... because pallies can't spam Bear/Revenge/Imper/Clock/Barricade in PvP.

Quite fun, huh?  :Emo_13: 


Edited by 2829180421224205750, 02 June 2018 - 12:29 AM.

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