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#26 Haus2407

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Posted 28 July 2017 - 04:33 AM

neither do f2p, they get milked than they get replaced. WoW and FF14 disagree with you btw, and prob a lot other ones too. I dont hop from game to game like a bitch to leech free stuff, I stick with the stuff I like and I reward companys if they entertain me.

 

You gave the only examples that actually come to mind, because these names are well known and established brands and companies with a lot of money. They have bragging rights. p2p games generally don't attract new players and slowly or even quickly die, until they resort to a f2p model and milk their players for whatever they have left. Don't be fixated on your own agenda, f2p models generally work better for a reason, they attract new players or old and keep them interested and entertained. Consumers will choose to pay at their own discretion. 

 

Some people actually like to have a game that they can hop back and forth between hardcore playing and casual and still being able to interact with their buddies and their guild in the game.

 

There are too many games to spend your time on. Just because you play one game at a time, doesn't mean other people have that kind of focus.

 

You aren't making an actual point here, who exactly is leeching? You are making assumptions about people you don't even know and stop judging f2p users for wanting to come back and enjoy the game. At least they aren't wasting time on unofficial private servers with no backing from the official company. Anyone who works for a living would be smart and buy VIP to help them level faster, and if they don't want to pay to get the most out of their hours and enjoy the slower grind, there is nothing wrong with that, they are still a valuable member of the community.


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#27 HattoriMasahige

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Posted 28 July 2017 - 06:09 AM

speaks for itself that ff14 and WoW are famous while all the f2p throwaway trash games seems like one hugh pile of -_-, wonder why that is. 

 

oh right, because it attracts casuals. 


Edited by HattoriMasahige, 28 July 2017 - 06:14 AM.

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#28 Haus2407

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Posted 28 July 2017 - 11:33 AM

Because these names are well known and established brands and companies with a lot of money. They have bragging rights.

 

Please stop going around in circles. Ragnarok Online would NOT be successful as p2p, they already tried this and it sunk.


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#29 HattoriMasahige

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Posted 28 July 2017 - 12:39 PM

I had the impression they sunk when they implemented cashshop and renewal. O welp.


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#30 Haus2407

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Posted 28 July 2017 - 01:19 PM

I had the impression they sunk when they implemented cashshop and renewal. O welp.

 

That's some pretty messed up argument. The cash shop f2p model is what helped them stabilise due to a declining playerbase. Renewal had nothing to do with it and is a separate discussion altogether, this clearly has nothing to do with the game being f2p/p2p.

 

I'm supposing that you must be completely against the cash shop and never buy kp to get anything out of it. Otherwise that makes you are a hypocrite. Since you aren't being reasonable, I suggest you take time to think of an appropriate response and listen to what other people have to say, and not say the first thing that comes to mind.


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#31 CodeJerry

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Posted 28 July 2017 - 01:28 PM

That's some pretty messed up argument. The cash shop f2p model is what helped them stabilise due to a declining playerbase. Renewal had nothing to do with it and is a separate discussion altogether, this clearly has nothing to do with the game being f2p/p2p.

 

I'm supposing that you must be completely against the cash shop and never buy kp to get anything out of it. Otherwise that makes you are a hypocrite. Since you aren't being reasonable, I suggest you take time to think of an appropriate response and listen to what other people have to say, and not say the first thing that comes to mind.

Honestly, I never buy from cash shops. When I do buy currency it's to support them because they have no way of donating. I never use it in the game to try to get an advantage over other players who cannot. It's about balance and cash shop and exp items give you an advantage that's like having the game master give you items for being friends. It's not acceptable in my books if you want a truly balanced game. I would never play a board game if one player always had an advantage just because they paid for the game( I don't think you would either). I do think game servers need to be paid but receiving benefits for it is just game breaking.


Edited by CodeJerry, 28 July 2017 - 01:29 PM.

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#32 Helios0

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Posted 28 July 2017 - 01:41 PM

That's some pretty messed up argument. The cash shop f2p model is what helped them stabilise due to a declining playerbase. Renewal had nothing to do with it and is a separate discussion altogether, this clearly has nothing to do with the game being f2p/p2p.

 

I'm supposing that you must be completely against the cash shop and never buy kp to get anything out of it. Otherwise that makes you are a hypocrite. Since you aren't being reasonable, I suggest you take time to think of an appropriate response and listen to what other people have to say, and not say the first thing that comes to mind.

 

In the same thought... you make an assumption of what the other guy is saying then judge him based on your assumption then proceed to lecture him based on an assumption you yourself reinforced..

 

CHILL

 

I personally disagree with your opinion. The conditions that this game is under now differ greatly than back when it was ruled by the iron fist of gravity and P2P occurred. There was no steam to hang Ragnarok Online in a window for passer bys to see, there was no library of WarpPortal games for players to be exposed to. Add to that, that the ENTIRE GAME was P2P with no free content for a while.

 

You are correct in your assessment that the previous P2P failed but there were times it worked.

 

Ymir worked in that people who wanted to play but were required to have VIP allowed for less people and a tighter nit community.. it existed among other non F2P servers Yggdrasil my server, etc.. it wasn't a one or nothing scenario. and that was before the Kafra shop evolved into the monster it is now

 

You think P2P is a bad Idea, the guy your arguing with doesn't agree and nor do i and neither do quite a few people many of which won't jump on here to argue.

 

There is an appetite for it and its a scenario that should not simply be tossed aside out of fear of what happened in the past.  All cards on the table while solutions are considered.


Edited by Helios0, 28 July 2017 - 01:43 PM.

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#33 Haus2407

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Posted 28 July 2017 - 03:31 PM

Honestly, I never buy from cash shops. When I do buy currency it's to support them because they have no way of donating. I never use it in the game to try to get an advantage over other players who cannot. It's about balance and cash shop and exp items give you an advantage that's like having the game master give you items for being friends. It's not acceptable in my books if you want a truly balanced game. I would never play a board game if one player always had an advantage just because they paid for the game( I don't think you would either). I do think game servers need to be paid but receiving benefits for it is just game breaking.

 

You aren't getting an advantage though... You can access all those items from other players and with silvervine which you can also buy with zeny. The cash shop and VIP options (1 week, 1 month, 6 months) is much more profitable for the company, if they open a server that's p2p, I would never have payed for 2 1 week VIPs and 1 month VIP, on my 1 warp portal account for all my characters. That's money warp portal would have lost to keep the server alive and thriving with an actual player base that care about their game.

 

In the same thought... you make an assumption of what the other guy is saying then judge him based on your assumption then proceed to lecture him based on an assumption you yourself reinforced..

 

CHILL

 

I personally disagree with your opinion. The conditions that this game is under now differ greatly than back when it was ruled by the iron fist of gravity and P2P occurred. There was no steam to hang Ragnarok Online in a window for passer bys to see, there was no library of WarpPortal games for players to be exposed to. Add to that, that the ENTIRE GAME was P2P with no free content for a while.

 

You are correct in your assessment that the previous P2P failed but there were times it worked.

 

Ymir worked in that people who wanted to play but were required to have VIP allowed for less people and a tighter nit community.. it existed among other non F2P servers Yggdrasil my server, etc.. it wasn't a one or nothing scenario. and that was before the Kafra shop evolved into the monster it is now

 

You think P2P is a bad Idea, the guy your arguing with doesn't agree and nor do i and neither do quite a few people many of which won't jump on here to argue.

 

There is an appetite for it and its a scenario that should not simply be tossed aside out of fear of what happened in the past.  All cards on the table while solutions are considered.

 

I am chill. I am just analysing the facts. We disagree, and I appreciate that. I'm not trying to convince you, it's up to you to decide for yourself. Games like WoW and FF14 do not attract casual players, this is again false. If you are paying for a monthly sub, you aren't technically casual anymore; you have to play that game until you meet your quota for that month unless you enjoy throwing money away which most people don't.

 

f2p cash shop models allow casuals to spend money, dare I say it, Casually. As mobile games have been doing forever now.

 

Steam does not provide visibility for mmos, this is a myth, this isn't 2014 anymore. Steam has been a fallback for p2p mmos for years, which have all turned f2p or b2p because of a lack of players. Games like RO do not attract new players unless they are f2p and appeals only to the fanbase which has been around for a decade who mostly play for nostalgia and to experience revo classic in it's opening glory. If there was a price on it, a lot less people would have played this server, and fewer would have invested in the cash shop.

 

Edited by Haus2407, 28 July 2017 - 03:43 PM.

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#34 Helios0

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Posted 28 July 2017 - 05:43 PM

WoW and FF14 do not attract casual players, this is again false. If you are paying for a monthly sub, you aren't technically casual anymore; you have to play that game until you meet your quota for that month unless you enjoy throwing money away which most people don't.
 

 

To me having what I consider "FUN" means more to me than the cost, I don't even think about it like i used to back when I was still in high school w/o a job Back then every dime was precious and if I got a game I would 100% it no matter what or feel guilty.

 

I don't think paying for a game subscription makes you a hardcore player . You can easily still be casual. I played World of Warcraft for 10 years and only raided for 3 near the end.. I would log on have fun with friends or just veg out and play the market, etc..  In the circumstance where you're dealing with individuals without a job or without steady income it does feel more like a precious thing you don't want to waste or pass by without getting your moneys worth.. in that sense people in those conditions would have to be more than casual to go after those games.. But people like me make up a big slice of gamers today. I work 40-60 hours a week and have time and money on the weekends to play and have fun. 

 

 

Steam does not provide visibility for mmos, this is a myth, this isn't 2014 anymore. Steam has been a fallback for p2p mmos for years, which have all turned f2p or b2p because of a lack of players. Games like RO do not attract new players unless they are f2p and appeals only to the fanbase which has been around for a decade who mostly play for nostalgia

 

I wouldn't even be here right now if it wasn't fore steam. I thought RO shut down years ago and boom to my surprise there it was on my steam page.. I have quite a few friends who are serial Gamers who will play 2-4 MMO's per month because they love mmo's and ever once in a while they'll find one they keep in the back burner for a rainy day like RO.  Even if its not as prevalent as it was in 2014.. RO back when it first went into 100% P2P was an whisper.. a rumor.. that spread by word of mouth..  The limited exposure it has even now exceeds any comparison to back then..   And the fact remains that while some have suggested a 100% P2P model many like myself have encouraged the concept for a dual server situation so that the game does remain F2P with the OPTION (<---choice is the key) to play in a P2P environment. 

 

I myself think that the idea of a 100% Re-Start P2P environment is a scenario I would assume the people at Warp Portal long since dismissed. 

 

With any luck we'll find out soon tho.
 


Edited by Helios0, 28 July 2017 - 05:44 PM.

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#35 Ignasia

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Posted 28 July 2017 - 07:20 PM

Coming from Ymir and original RO, and having spent money on multiple accounts in both situations, original as a College student, and Ymir while I still worked, I can honestly say I prefer the format.

 

Back on Classic, everything was grand, and yes as Helios points out, the servers thrived on word of mouth.  At a time when social media was a buzz word for up-and-coming tech where analysts were still in disagreement if Twitter would last with it's 140 limit, if Facebook could ever take over My Space, and 30 million subscribers to MySpace was considered epic and groundbreaking.  There were no Youtube commercials, and technically Youtube WAS the only game in town for video sharing, which was mostly gamers.  Either you knew the channel to go to, or were familiar with the game to know to even search for it.  Companies had yet to plan marketing strategies around the computer space as Ad Banners were becoming "a thing" at the time, and Ad-Blocker was just starting to grow in popularity, let alone plugging into social media or having a strategy or even desire to utilize the platforms just starting out.

 

When the Cash Shop arrived it had NOTHING to do with a declining population.  Chaos and Loki were still growing, Iris had just opened up and was growing steadily (hell they opened it BECAUSE Chaos and Loki were continuously expanding).  The original Kafra Shop was to introduce a new way to make extra cash on the side, with the main sellers being the specialized versions of Ori and Elu, the enriched versions, and a few small extras here and there.  I don't think we had WoE pots, Bubblegum, or Battle Manuals yet.  In anycase, to further expand the game and just prior to the Cash Shop, but I believe just prior to the cash shop, was the introduction of the 30-day free period.  That ruined everything.  That's when we started seeing Zeny sellers and large scale bot farming operations.

 

With the bot farmers, and with the growing popularity of other MMO's, people left RO.  As bots, zeny sellers, and the broken element of an ever expanding cash shop became an issue for many, quite a number of players migrated to pservers.  Nevermind Gravity's stupid policies of forcing bans of IPs from regions with newly opened RO servers.  You want to lose a player base, ban someone with a level 70 character at a time when it took 3~4 weeks of almost non-stop play to hit those levels, and prior to the EXP tweaks that rendered the game a little easier, or the monster layout repositioning. Especially surprising at the time as RO never adequately marketed.

 

Though again, I'll reiterate this point, the MAIN reasons for the early exodus are as follows, in order of magnitude:

 

1) New servers in new regions and Gravity force banning IPs from those regions from iRO, including deleting any and all accounts tied to IP's from those regions.  Believe it or not, but this affected thousands of players.  I know quite a number who not only didn't join up with the official in those regions, but joined pservers because they had 90+ characters on one or two accounts, all permanently lost.  All that time and effort, but they still wanted to play.

 

2) Vastly expanding bot networks due to the 30 day free trial period, and corresponding Zeny sellers appearing enmasse.  This is the main reason given in the early days of the pserver expansion. 

 

3) Other MMO's becoming popular and doing a very solid job at openly advertising.  Amongst these was the early build of WoW, Everquest (which was old, but still advertising, and had gone through several tweaks to make it easier for newbies), and Final Fantasy 11.  Nevermind Lineage 1 was just breaking out of Korea, and Lineage 2 beta was on the horizon.  I don't think EVE was present yet, but there WAS Second Life, which was very enticing for the level of control granted to users, and the number of existing fully functional and complex worlds built by individuals or groups of players wanting to mimic other gaming environments.

 

4) Marketing.  Gravity is crap at marketing.  Even though in the past there were banner ads and interviews with early MMOrpg sites and gaming sites, they weren't nearly as popular at the time, nor offered nearly the level of exposure to the internet audience.  Afterall, Broadband wasn't considered a mandatory form of connection until 2007, and didn't even gain majority share of the market until about 2011.  RO on dialup, even a 56k baud modem was the pits.  Even running a 128kk or 256kk over the phone line was still too inconsistent to make it fun (or survive lag spikes).

 

5) The other reason was as Helios mentioned...content limitations.  We were about 2~3 years behind kRO at the time depending on the content.  Yet most sites kept up with kRO updates, so iRO players were well apprised of available items, options, new content, etc.  Not good when pservers were actively advertising through various banner ads, and doing so far more effectively than iRO was, complete with promises for all current kRO content and actual decent anti-bot measures (advertised measures...not always implemented at the time...or broken stuff like Lord Kaho's Horns).  Quite enticing at the time...

 

6) Lag spikes.  It WAS called Lagnarok for a reason, and the slow response towards fixing server issues or software issues leading to said spikes.  Always fun to get hit by a whopper 5 minute spike, where maybe 1/4 of the population stays online and the other 3/4 get logged.  Especially fun if you died because the server kept running game code in the interim, and you weren't potting/getting healed, or attacking.

 

 

I came back much later on when Renewal began, and joined Ymir.  Sadly finding two of my accounts were no longer present (you know that Renewal wasn't just about loss of player base on the original server, it was due mostly to the main servers and backups being corrupted...that's the whole point of ClassicRO, trying to scrounge what was left of the original build and remake it, and why Classic doesn't quite play right...anyway, many accounts were lost due to corruption).  This is another attempt to recapture pre-renewal, but clearly given Classic failed so hard they figure it would be easier to combine Renewal, which is a fully functional build, with certain Classic elements.  In anycase, I found Ymir was a dream.  Like the original, only with more bots than the original, but less than the days of Zeny Sellers...possibly because of Valkyrie?  I dunno, but Ymir was smooth, fun, had a pretty solid community, and I never had an issue finding people to party with or guilds to join, or things to do, or ways to build my characters.

 

Ymir's economy was a little extreme at times, but it wasn't out of control as what occurred with the merger of Yggdrasil and Ymir.  I recall having fewer issues selling items, making more per sale, and having an easier time affording goodies when I needed to, with less overall time required to play to reach the same goals of whatever specialized equipment or card I wished to purchase.  After the merger what was a stable and fair economy switched to a total blowout.  There may have been more rares available, but prices spiked fast, and to keep up with the market and people buying from Zeny sellers, I had to spend twice as much time just playing the market to stay afloat. 

 

Granted a lot of problems stem from the cash shop, but having 2~15% bots, no Zeny sellers feels a lot more pleasant.  It's something I miss when Ymir was lost with the merger.  For all the cash shop issues present, everything went downhill at lightning speed with the merger.  Everything went from clean and fun to chaos and crap.

 

It's interesting watching new people join Renewal the last few years I played before leaving.  They almost all quit.  Why?  The market.  It's one thing to see something that's 50m and have a sense of how much time it might take to get to that number when early items sell for decent sums and quickly.  It's quite another to see that same item on sale for 500m on a heavily botted server, where your basic items never move, never sell, as you're competing with botted items, so virtually everything you find from monsters, including a number of cards has to be npced or just dumped in town.  Granted there are ample ways to make money in Renewal.  Ample, but it's harder to give someone an idea this is even possible, or to envision being able to pull it off.

 

So given how well Ymir functioned.  Yes, I would like to see another P2P RO server.


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#36 HattoriMasahige

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Posted 29 July 2017 - 01:13 AM

idk, those who defend f2p on the new server are probably botter themselves. odin, o well, people are dumb so they wont understand why paying 5-10 bucks (once or a bit less per month) would make the gaming experience a lot better, whatever, let them rot with the bots.

 

But argueing against friggs going p2p, either youre dumb or a botter, you dont want to lose your friends? people who want to go to friggs will quit anyway if they dont get the bot issue sorted so yea, thanks ignasia for your great post and explaining in detail why RO went down like it did. It had absolutely nothing to do with the subscription model (or at least its negelectable compared to the other reasons you mentioned)


Edited by HattoriMasahige, 29 July 2017 - 01:13 AM.

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#37 Shirase

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Posted 29 July 2017 - 03:20 AM

idk, those who defend f2p on the new server are probably botter themselves. odin, o well, people are dumb so they wont understand why paying 5-10 bucks (once or a bit less per month) would make the gaming experience a lot better, whatever, let them rot with the bots.

 

But argueing against friggs going p2p, either youre dumb or a botter, you dont want to lose your friends? people who want to go to friggs will quit anyway if they dont get the bot issue sorted so yea, thanks ignasia for your great post and explaining in detail why RO went down like it did. It had absolutely nothing to do with the subscription model (or at least its negelectable compared to the other reasons you mentioned)

 

Monthly Payment = Less Bots, maybe even way less Bots.
I would instantly starting playing on Monthly Fee Ragnarok Server (with a good Server)
And if they have no Cashshop or "ONLY" Cosmetics (no -_- mounts for everyone, consumables or stat stuff whatsoever)

Praise the Lord....

I remember Oldschool Ragnarok, the Citys always were lively people talked to each other
creating or searching for partys. People interacted more instead of Multi-Exe self leech and
Pay2Win Mechanics.

 

but lets be reasonable...it wil probably never happen official, the only way to get this back is

if someone who knows what and how to do it offers this for a P-Server.

I for myself have no Problem paying monthly, i do it for Final Fantasy too.
And without combing everyone over one stroke i still believe people who find the time and energy

to be totaly against this are mostly botter or multi-exe user. There are tons of Official F2P Ro Server, sooooooo
how about one thats realy oldschool?


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#38 Explode

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Posted 01 August 2017 - 07:40 AM

When Frigg server will open?


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#39 7456131101063436470

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Posted 02 August 2017 - 04:49 AM

Nothing is being done to get the bots out of the server. No shield, no anti bot system or whatsoever.

 

How are you guys going to sustain the server? Even if you plan to make it P2P, "they" will still pay and bot inside. Same s*** different smell yo.

 

No offence, but I was REALLY anticipating this server before it started on the first day as I know it will be open internationally. Having said that, now I do not even want to log in to the server. FULL of BOTS EVERYWHERE aka UNFAIR GAME PLAY.

 

If the server continues like this, most likely your loyal players will start to leave.


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