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About Physical Classes, Elements and PvP

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#1 TurtleTuber


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Posted 16 August 2017 - 07:31 AM

Physical Classes:


In todays DragonSaga physical classes are still, after many class balancing attempts, way behind magical classes. In PvP areas like BSQ you can notice the gap between physical classes and magical classes even better.


Its sad to see that every physical class has to lower their gameplay to a point which doesnt allow you to combo with any skills that launches your enemy or does make him fall. So if you are in a BSQ with mages you wont see a Gladiator combo with Wyvern or Storm Blade, Dragoons wont use Chain Shield or Diving Dragon, Ninja wont use Ambush, Sky Penetration or Aerial Frenzy, Savages wont use Headspin in a combo or Upper Screwdriver. All that Physical Classes are doing is spamming 2 or 3 skills for a groundcombo. Why? Because if they combo they dont deal any noticeable damage to mages and the opponent will probably escape.


Magical Classes in comparison can actually play pretty much like in normal PvP, because most of their skills are Groundbased, have alot of stuns/ freeze effects, can therefor easy team up together, because non of their combos requires launching or knockbacks. Also 1 Invoker/ Summoner is in the most cases enough to lower their opponents HP to less than the half in 3-5 seconds thanks to crazy DPS.


You can kinda see how good classes are in their level range if you take a look at BSQ. If i would start nowadays and would have to pick a class it would pretty much look like this:






3.Sentinel / Destroyer


And thats pretty much what you also see in BSQ. In 1o1 I would say, all Physical classes are able to "compete" with all other classes. Why? Because you mostly dont play dirty in 1o1 and dont try to 1combo other people. 


If you join now BSQ you will see that all Physical classes turn suddenly into support classes. Rarely a Physical class will be able in a teamfight with magical classes to defeat one of those. Most damage comes from the magical classes and in the most cases Magical classes will keep the flags. 


Everything Physical classes are good for today is to a.) land a catch or to b.) interrupt the opponents when they are chasing your teammate which is trying to keep the flags. But non of the Physical Classes has a "stand-alone-factor" anymore.


Question is when did this happen? Physical classes were the ones who dominated BSQ, and Physical Classes were the ones who were enjoyed the most by the player.


Even when element got implemented you saw physical classes all over the battlefield. But when people started to stack element resistance to an amount where you deal as good as no damage, it became broken and Magical classes made their way to the top of BSQ.


Which brings me to the next point.






Element Damage:


Im a fan of no element damage and the beginnings of element damage, where no one had 6* resistance cards and most people had only a lv 2 6* damage card.


Why was that system nice back then?


Because you could easy adjust your gear. Put a low weap on + 1 6*, or just replace the 6* on your boots / gloves with a normal set part without a socket. Easy and fair PvP.


But well, it escalated quickly to a point where the old element system became totally broken and ofc there was no other way but to implement a new system. 


Even tho the aim was to give elements less impact i have the feeling that it has now even more impact or at least the same imapct in PvP.


If you want to PvP someone with equal gear its always a big thing. If your opponent has no ele damage but a +20 weapon he still deals no damage. You need to take alot gear parts off and on till you find a middle way where you still have the wished ms/ as stats from your set to be able to pvp but so low damage that you dont 1 shot your opponent. But even if you switch from your +20 PoS / Elga weap to a broken lv 1 weap you still deal almost the same amount of damage which also doesnt seem to be right in my opinion.


Main Source of Damage should be the weapon, not the sockets. And having 8 of them doesnt make it easier.






I already mentioned often enough in the forum that the heal from Mages is too op aka Wide Heal. Luckily the staff decided to nerf that heals within the last class balances and even nerfed slow heal. On the paper it looked like a harsh nerf for slow heal. 50%..k. Wide heal was well deserved tho.


But looking at BSQ nothing really has changed. Its still incredible hard to take mages down and those who suffer from the healing nerf just run few rounds more in BSQ to fill their HP completely up via heals. So overall you have a tiny, higher chance to kill a Mage in lock (with 4 or more people) thanks to slow heal being halfed, but at the end, once he escaped, nothing changed alot.



So looking back on the point where i talked about Physical Classes and their place in BSQ i want to ask myself and you guys, do we really want Heals and that ridiculous high damage from mages in BSQ? Dont we get bored of this, chasing a healing mage all over the battlefield for 20 minutes and getting killed so easy by them?


I also started creating a Summoner and an Invoker, but for what? For dying less in BSQ and Killing faster? I dont even enjoy the classes.



What I want to see after class balance finished is Physical classes having their place in BSQ again, dealing at least as much damage to magical classes as they deal to them, being able to use the full skillpool again without fearing that the Mages/Summoner escape and heal back up. 


Attacking with skills should just have more impact than the usual x-spam.


Some weeks ago i was in a BSQ without Mages and Summoner / Twins. I dont want to talk bad about that classes but tbh, the BSQ was wonderfull.


No annoying 20minutes mage chasing, no frame drop coz of Summoner and Mage skills, normal and more or less balanced damage. That was a BSQ like in the "good, old days".


I think the damage Physical classes deal to each other is more or less balanced. The only problem i see is the damage that Physical classes deal against Magical ones in BSQ. Also take a look at Summoners Golgon please. Somehow it stuns like 6 times in a row while its frozen. Golgon itself is totally buggy in BSQ and should get reworked or disabled.


What do you guys think?


Edited by TurtleTuber, 16 August 2017 - 07:41 AM.

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#2 Precrush


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Posted 16 August 2017 - 07:58 AM

Even if other classes become as good in group pvp, which would need element changes, it'll still take a while for you to start seeing other classes more and more. In an mmo most people don't or can't switch class quickly. So in any case, don't expect things to change quickly.


One thing that you point out which I think is absolutely true are the frame drops summoners and mages bring. All those summons are not only broken, they are also very big in size for pretty much no reason and same goes for lightning magnet. Not only do they cause lag issues, they create an unacceptable amount of extra noise on the screen in an already hectic 15vs15 fight.



I think the real pvp in this game is in 1v1s and small room pvps. Maybe someday they'll be active and we can balance the game around that, would need some pretty big things to happen though.

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#3 Bustincaps


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Posted 19 August 2017 - 02:20 PM

I think the real pvp in this game is in 1v1s and small room pvps. Maybe someday they'll be active and we can balance the game around that, would need some pretty big things to happen though.




Never thought I'd see a comment like this from the community here. Glory days pls...



Quick food for thought: make an element toggle for all types of lobby PvP? Improve the handicap toggle?  :dunno: I'll leave it at that since it's somewhat off topic.

Edited by Bustincaps, 19 August 2017 - 02:22 PM.

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#4 9851170220163549840


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Posted 21 August 2017 - 07:16 PM

That was a nice read and I get the feeling of it. But I can see that the team is really working hard on updating the game and I really appreciate it. Kudos to the team~ :thx: :thx:


I totally agree with almost all of the argument specially with the line where Skills should be more important or noticeable than x-spamming. They are skills made for improved damaged, not for lesser effect~


In addition, having a support in an MMO is very nice~ it makes you think of teamwork more. Offensive classes should be offensive classes, Tanks should be tanks. Supports should be supports.


The only thing I see as a resolution would be a large-scale change in the skill tree and they are slowly doing it. The team is slowly balancing the classes as mentioned by putting certain caps MS/AS and balancing the skills. They can't do it on one shot because people already invested more than you could imagine for their OP classes. Doing this may cause a huge negative effect on the community if suddenly took down in one go~

Edited by 9851170220163549840, 21 August 2017 - 07:17 PM.

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#5 Apocryphos


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Posted 21 August 2017 - 07:59 PM

Very positive thinking in this post, especially with those player enforced rules. Unfortunately player's need to wake up, some player's aren't gonna listen to some rules that can't be enforced by people with authority. If the game was truly designed for 1o1's lock's wouldn't be a thing, or there would be some way to escape from locks. In harsh reality I think the game was built for group pvp where reliable teammates are your saving grace. Luckily the game is getting closer and closer to a balanced state, at the moment people can play 7 out of the 10 classes in bsq without being a hindrance(in most cases) meanwhile the remaining 3 are far too situational, way better than the old days where it was evade/block for days imo. In all honesty the game's pvp system is probably secondary to the pve experience.

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#6 zekiel6


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Posted 22 August 2017 - 01:17 AM

also think like that. the damage from invokers xspam or summoners helixshot is way too high compared to the classes who rely on skills to deal damage. cant be that invoker kills 200k hp in 1 freeze while the physical classes do way less damage in 1 combo. this can be fixed if you lower the element damage from x attacks.

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#7 Rossbach


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Posted 24 August 2017 - 08:12 PM

Skill (% off wep base, super useless esp with slow animations), phy (even more so since def is higher), mag dmg is irrelevant, all about those elements hits/second. Give every class the ability to do 3 hits every x atk and see what happens.

Edited by Rossbach, 24 August 2017 - 08:29 PM.

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#8 jepherdy


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Posted 31 August 2017 - 05:23 PM

I completely agree with this topic. The game is almost all about element, maybe they should focus more to balance element in pvp. Instead maybe make element OP in pve. The game was so much better before, when all stats are working like AIM, EVADE and BLOCK. For me having these stats make the game balanced, so players will not just focus on one thing like attack speed or critical damage and etc.. I hope they take that into consideration or at least study that =P


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#9 Roseupfromdead


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Posted 20 September 2017 - 08:30 AM

Physical Classes critical damage are super high.
Not like they cant kill anyone. They 100% can kill.

Heal already nerf, one slow heal not really much higher than a hp pot.
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#10 Kristof3195


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Posted 20 September 2017 - 09:24 AM

Physical Classes critical damage are super high.
Not like they cant kill anyone. They 100% can kill.

Heal already nerf, one slow heal not really much higher than a hp pot.

nope they cant kill anyone ( except archers only legit phys class :P

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