20 replies to this topic

[Feuer]

Let's just get this started. The following are issues currently still in-game, that should very much be addressed in the next Pegasus Class Balancing phase / session.

I'll break it down by Second Job Classes and Spoiler tags to keep it neat and from over-whelming the reader at a glance.

 

 

Champions:

Spoiler

 

Great Swords:
Still lacking any type of survival trait. Generic Damage dealer with no special resistances. 

Ironically, has much higher Critical Defense capability due to them having many benefits to adding CHA, while Axes [the prior Crit-Tanks have little purpose for the stat]

 

Spears:

AoE Mitigation Nerfed. When the AoE mitigation feature was added, Spears had to make a choice that was frankly unfair. Either go full AoE Range to hit as much as many targets as possible with laughable damage, or avoid AoE Radius at all cost, to focus higher damage on a few targets. While this sounds like a good thing as it provides choice of build / play style, ultimately it's one that completely invalidates the class as a whole. Their single target damage potential was hit with the A-Speed nerf, and their Skill Damages aren't exactly anything to boast about. 

Not really sure what to do about the AoE situation other than to void their prior status as the AoE Machines, and give them some new Single Target skills.

 

No Hard CC: This is the biggest problem with Spears. They're the ONLY class in ROSE without a stun, mute, daze or sleep. This is a massive problem as it disables you from preventing many classes from using things to compeltely void your already meager single target damage. You can't interrupt Mage's casting Barrier, you can't mute or daze a Cleric to prevent it from healing or ressing, You can't stun A-speed proc builds like Knights etc forcing them to waste their proc'd Aspeed burst. So on so forth. Just give them a stun already. 

 

Axes:

CD Times: 

Completely ridiculous. I've touched on this before, but I'll sum it up again. Only 2 of the Axes 10 skills have cooldowns that are under 15 seconds. [if memory serves correct]. Due to them having the slowest attack speed in ROSE aside from a Cannon [lol..] This means they can only use their CD's once, and that's it. IF it's not dead, you have to swing your molasses coasted axe for another good 5-9 seconds before you have access to 2-4 of your skills again. And another 12-20 seconds for the others.

The best way I could describe it would be, Imagine a Mage having all their cooldowns be roughly 20 seconds. That's what you did to Axe Champ CD's.

 

Self Healing: Axes core problem is accuracy. Their self heal is on a 28 second Cooldown. It has no static healing amount. You miss, you get nothing. You hit something with a Barrier, you get nothing. You hit something that blocks it, you get nothing. Knights and Raiders both have Static HP amounts on their self heals, meaning even if you miss, you at least get a bit of HP for using the CD. and both of those are HALF the cool down time. Both of them don't have accuracy issues to begin with. Solutions? Make it reliable damage [always hits, not necessarily always crits], Reduce the cool down to 15 seconds, and/or give it a static HP amount.

 

Axe Fury: I already said this [like everything else] the proc rate on this is too low for it being based on Melee Hits [that successfully hit the target....] on the slowest melee hitter in the game. It either needs to have double the stack counters with half the stack effect and 100% proc rate; or, it needs to be made 'melee attack' not 'melee hit' [the difference being you don't have to land the hit for it to roll on generating a stack]. 

 

Critical Defense Down: When the Critical Defense update happened, you didn't fix their Crit Down skill to be Critical Defense down. The whole point of this skill was to increase the likelihood of you landing crits on your target, as you are HEAVILY based [both damage and procs to yield damage] on landing crits. Please fix this.

 

Critical Defense Rating: .... Do I even have to point this out? You never augmented their Critical Defense tanking capability, and Axes have no reason to add CHA beyond a few points. Please passively give them some Critical Defense BACK that was 100% stripped without compensation into their build somewhere.

 

Knights:

Spoiler

 

General: Too tanky. No point at all whatsoever for them to be as tanky as they are. Laughing in the face of 3 players while you sit on the ground recovering more HP than they can deal damage is a slap in the face to any Knight player who mains the class and plays it skillfully. 

 

xBows:

Lack of Offensive Proc: 1H Knights have one of the best DPS procs in the game [5 hits = 100% A-Speed buff for x seconds] Crossbows have no proc at all. How about giving them a proc that based on being hit, provides 50 static Enhance Damage to enhance their DoT's and laughable auto attacks.

 

Lack of AoE Taunt/Aggro Control: Seriously, why do I keep having to bring this up? Sure, they have Sacrifice, but because of Impact Wave, Taunt, and Sword Force, the nerf to Sacrifice made xBow Knights only AoE Taunt unreliable  especially in Dungeons. I suggest a new Unique along the lines of a PvM AoE Taunt Banner/Summon. Large HP pool, DEF based on Knights DEF, only taunts PvM targets. Required Magic Shot [5]. Done.

 

Protection: It sucks. Not in design, it just doesn't actually protect your ally at all. the Reduction amount isn't high enough, and the duration doesn't matter at that point. I suggest the reduction be tuned up to 80% reduction, for 4-5 seconds [same cooldown currently in use].  (Please note, Protection is ONLY castable on an ally, not on the Knight, they won't be able to use this to make themselves Immortal, and yes, that restriction is already in-game. This is Protection, NOT Guard)

 

 

Mages:

Spoiler

 

Bubbles: Too big, prevents Absorption, to easily re-applied. Provides too much of a safety net for Mages being in Melee range, when they're not designed or suppose to be in Melee Range to begin with. 1 or more of the following should occur: Nerf shield amount by 50% across all tiers / skill levels. MP Cost should be tripled. Cooldown should be 10-15 seconds.

 

Damage: Completely imbalanced, and only kept in check by the Damage Cap of 40% your enemy's max HP. This is absurd, and needs to be tuned down across the board on all skills.

 

Frost: Lack luster, too many large cooldowns which prevents it from having reliable DPS [Same issue with Axe Champs] required supplemental Sorc or alternate skills.

 

Sorcery Mastery: It doesn't work in PvM. It applies a stack to an enemy, and monsters can't have stacks applied to them. Please change this passive proc to provide a Pierce Magic Resistance self buff on the Mage, instead of Magical Defense down on the enemy.

 

Accuracy: Their Ratio Conversion passive provides too much Accuracy based on INT, and allows mages to completely skip CON as a stat while retaining Accuracy of any other class. Should they invest into CON, their Accuracy is higher than Artisans and Bourgs. This is an insult to Dealers, and also makes them semi-omni class as their weakness was supposed to be Raiders, Scouts and or anything with a high Dodge rating. This passive should require more CON, and less INT to function in it's capacity, and be reduced by roughly 1/5 to 1/6th it's current out-put.

 

 

Clerics:

Spoiler

 

Support:

Flames: Too plentiful, too readily available, too powerful. Should be removed entirely imo, or made to be a single use large cooldown.

 

HoT's: Too infrequent, doesn't scale to compensate for DoT's. Their tic speed should be doubled and amount given via scaling doubled.

 

Too Tanky: You have people using Clerics as Knights in Dungeons, this is disgustingly imbalanced. Clerics shouldn't be damage sponges, should they be able to soak some for a short time, yes, but indefinitely, no. They have access to every defensive stat, including mute resistance, which as a caster, you should be weak to. 
-Reduce Mute Resistance proc by 50% of it's effective potential

 

Summons: Ice Dragons Burn does 90 Damage / second.... at best. This is under powered by a long shot. 

Better yet, just remove the offensive summons and V

 

or, refer to this thread. It seems to be gaining traction now. 

 

 

Bourges:

Spoiler

 

Cannon:

AoE Burn: Too powerful, should be half the strength it is. With a single use of this skill after using the CON|STR*0.5 self buffs, you can AoE an infinite number of mobs in Dungeons. In PvP, it tics too hard and frequently, reducing most players HP to 10-30%, opening them up for being 2 shot. It voids the Max Damage cap of 40% max enemy HP, and is blatantly over-powered.

 

Gun:

Lack luster in every way.

Reflection: With the DoT meta, reflection damage is a joke, people will just intentionally not use accuracy, to avoid the reflect and let the DoT's do the work [specifically raiders, and we'll get there]. Should be tuned up by 100% it's current effectiveness.

Attack Speed: A joke. The Proc'd effect doesn't last long enough [should be +3-5 seconds longer] and the self buff doesn't last nearly long enough for it's Cooldown time.

 

General:

The floating Eye either needs to go, or needs it's detection radius increased bout 2/3 to double. 

[Also, this thing spamming it's skill flags you for combat, disabling your ability to switch gear, mount, etc even though it causes zero damage] 

 

Artisan:

Spoiler

 

Decloak: It doesn't have one. It's been over 3 years, give them a generic decloak. This is beyond ridiculous that I have to still say this.

 

Survival: To sum up an Artisan. It's a Visitor, with a weapon tree. Literally, the thing Visitors and artisans have in common, is neither have ANY defensive passives, procs, buffs or CD's. If you can't see the problem with that, I don't know that any of this post will make sense [to anyone reading this].

 

Buff Pots: The Buffing potential of an artisan always laid in the Buff Pots they could craft. Why can't Artisans use or craft specific pots only they can use in PvP areas? They'd be clones of what they already craft, but this would at least enable them SOME survival and a gimmick when it comes to being constantly stranded in PvP or Dungeons.

 

AoE DoT: Every Secondary Class has some form of Damage over Time secondary option*.
Champs: Two Burn AoE's
Knights: AoE Taunts with Reflection

Mages: Multiple Burn AoE's
Bourges: Flame Cannon Splash [the most over powered imbalanced AoE in the game]
Scouts: Poison Arrow Shower: The over-all best performing, low CD, strong DPS AoE DoT

* Raider: PvM Tornado Slash, AoE Physical [can be blended with any element....]

* Clerics: PvP Poison Sleep Cloud

 

* denote situation specific, but it still counts.

 

Scouts:

Spoiler

 

Bow:

Impact: Poorly tuned, if it wasn't for the Max HP cap, this skill would 1 shot most medium and under armor classes. I've seen the lag show it's true damage, and it would in one shot drop my Mage, Raider and Artisan to 10% HP from 100% if the cap wasn't there. This means even with poor gear, lack of proper use, or panic button pressing, a Bow Scout can chunk most anyone for a large portion of their HP.

 

Poison Arrow Shower: Should be tuned down by about 15% via increasing it's CD 4-5 seconds.

 

xBows:

Reflection: Same problem as Gun Bourgs. Should be triple what it is now.

Reduction: 10% isn't going to do anything when you HP pool is 15-20k. That's going to help you tank .5-1 more hit. Suggest this be changed to Harmful Status Resistance +50% on the same duration and cooldown. xBow Scouts are supposed to be status Tanks, give them the proper tools to do it.

 

General:

HP Pool is too low. I suggest they gain a Scout specific Passive that gives raw HP at a ratio to their DEX or CHA. Both benefit both specs, and both specs need it. It doesn't have to be insane either, an additional 5k HP would be enough.

 

Hawk Summons: .... Purely pointless. Poor stat scaling, doesn't scale of gear progression or any other item based progression in any meaningful way. Should be turned into a DoT with a Physical Damage over Time [Bleed]

 

Raiders:

Spoiler

 

Katar:

Nerf it. Burns are vastly too plentiful, requires no Accuracy [which is the main weakness of Katars... so what gives with that] and are over-all too powerful in potential. All Burn CD's should be increased by 40-50% their current times, and damage scaling should be tuned down by roughly 15-20%. 

 

Attack Speed: Adrenaline Rush should be made a common stack effect for both Raiders [move it under the Aspeed common passive in the Raider tree] and replace in it's current position a stacking effect that increase Melee Damage by % + static. Maybe something called 'Punishing Blows'.

 

Invisibility: Why Cloaking and Stealth don't share a cooldown is beyond me. No class has 2 decloaks, which means if a Raider wants to harass you by hitting and stealthing in a 1v1 situation, they can just cloak twice to void your one decloak. These two skills should share a cooldown, and make the user chose to either use Stealth [Defensive / escape skill] or Cloak [offensive variant]. They shouldn't have both, forcing the enemy to rely on there being 2 players to counter the single Raider.

 

Critical Weakness: Doesn't work in PvM. Against, Mobs can't have stacks applied, should be fixed to provide Critical Rating self buff stacks on the Raider, not the target. Enables use in PvM.

 

Dual Wields:

Shattering Blows: Again, doesn't work in PvM. Please change this to apply a self buff stack of Pierce Physical Defense on the Raider, not Defense Down on the target to enable it's usage in PvM.

Item Issues:

 

Wands and Clerics:

• All Cleric abilities MP cost is and has been configured off the MP Cost % reduction on all wands for a long time. This means if you're a BC, and want to use any Honor or Valor Wand, your MP costs are utterly insane. All Cleric skills should have their MP costs reduced by 25%. All MP Cost reduction should be removed from non-Unique grade wands. 
• Offensive Wands: To only option for a Offensive Cleric is either Hardened, Lumi or Courage [depending on your circumstance]. Seeing as the 240 gear came out, there is no new offensive wand for BC's. They're still stuck using either level 200 Hardened Wands, or Lumi / Courage and having their MP bars drains so fast it's insulting. Please add a new Unique Grade offensive Variant [after the above MP cost tuning change if done] that Provides AP + Pierce Magical.

Valor Armor:

 

You have 2 options: HP/Dodge [which the vast majority of Classes don't use Dodge. Examples: Sword & Axe Champs, Cannons both Bourg and Artisan etc] or Critical/Accuracy [Accuracy is a completely unnecessary stat for PvM, and most Classes must build into Crit in order to see the Critical benefit from Courage, even if their class has no business using Crit Mechanics]. 

 

I've made a post about this here from long time ago. 

 

Jewelry:

Why are we still using level 160 jewelry, when it's the easiest item to implement to the server. They don't require models or textures. They're just data and an icon. Please make a new level 200 Honor Jewelry Set, and some new Unique / Legendary  grade Jewelry sourced from PvE Content. If you want some stat-ideas, I'd be happy to supply some.

 

Off-hands:

Why are there no Valor / Honor / Unique grade Off-hands? I wouldn't even mind if it was just a re-color of the same tier with some stats. But the whole point of using an off-hand spec is the extra slot is there to compensate your less powerful main hand. 

 

New Off-hands: Why are these EXACTLY the same stats as the previous off-hands. I checked a +8 Scepter against a +8 Book of Horus and they both give exactly the same Physical and Magical Defenses with only a VERY small increase to MP and 1 mp point recovery. Please scale this up to reflect it's higher stat requirement [both the Magic tool and Shield]. 

 

New All-Class Wing: I sent in a model and texture for a new wing item, was there just no need for this or has that been forgotten about? 

 

Potions: No new level 220, 240 or 250 potions have been added. This seems like a fairly quick fix. I'll even make the icon if you want. 

Think I'll leave this at this point. I might make a few edits to clean up the formatting, make it more read-able, but for now I just wanted to get the issues listed. 

Edited by Feuer, 17 August 2017 - 09:27 PM.

[borgahutt]

Good bunch of info

HOWEVER - please don't let it be mixed with players that have mastered their class now to being 'OP class straight away needs changing' because a lot of the times that not the case

When a player masters the class well we should then have to counter that to be able to kill it... it's simple.

Some of the above I disagree some agree - the new jewellery and offhands would be great, the difference for the top tier offhands is quite frankly a joke lol!

Again as mentioned before a lot of the strengths of some characters can be very easily countered by strengths of another - this is how it should be, but obvious changes are needed

[Snuwfer]

I don't agree about nerfing scouts, impacts are a scouts back bone, also the main damage dealing skill that they have.

they already struggle against every class in the game 1vs1 except for fighting another scout and do not counter artisans or bourgs anymore.

The class depends on its traps vs pretty much every single class in a 1vs1 pvp besides its own class, which drives me insane and can't stand.

Poison arrow shower really is not that over powered, it's got a base of 150% skill power, 6 second dot with a tick per 1.5s, and substantially less dot damage compared to other classes AOE dot, and a scouts poison arrow, and an 8 second cool down. Not to mention how badly designed the animation is and how long it takes to cast this skill, more often than not you get stuck in skill animation using it if you're not high attack speed.

Now onto scouts passives, I think these deserve attention to be changed, 25% ice arrow chance to proc on skill cast (it has to hit, can't miss\block etc for proc) is absurd, more often than not if you do manage to get a stack, you are stuck with the 3 that you have unless you feel like spending a good minute I'd bet trying to get at least 9 stacks.. It's also a 15 second cool down for the proc once you do obtain it. Same thing can be said for Wind Arrow, as it's only a 30% chance to proc if it is a successful hit, and the added bonus from this proc is absurdly low to begin with.. The movement speed is not bad, however the attack speed could us some buffing.

giving an assassin class more of a health pool to mitigate defenses, it seems too easy and not well thought out. Why not give scouts an 30-45 second active buff, or something of the sorts instead?

Also, scouts do not have any Charm scaling to any debuffs, that's a issue I have with scouts and I'd like to see it either bumped up a tiny bit, or allowed scaling to charm on certain skills. There was a point of time when Clamp arrow and Shackle arrow actually mattered, I laugh knowing the fact I'm making my opponent lose 10% of their stat while they chunk a stat of mine for 20%+

 

last but not least, on the passive skill proc's for scout, please can you adjust the skill power damage % for them? they're INSANELY low, and do almost the same damage your auto attack would unless you are heavily invested into skill power % runes, or wear full luminous.. (wearing full luminous would be cutting your Achilles heel because of how much accuracy you're going to lose... on a scout, unless you are vs a champion\mage which you wouldn't need accuracy for) If you were even at the least invested into Melee attack power, it would surely make your passive damage skills look miserable and pointless to consider. It's 125% +120 skill power at level 5.. Level 1 is 105% + 40. The very first damage skill you get to learn on a scout is 130% + 110 at level 5.. I don't feel like it should be that way.

to beat an artisan on a scout you're going to have to go to essential methods in order to win, a bourgeois with good accuracy is going to 3 hit you if he manages his 3 opening skills to hit.

 

Also clerics are seriously not tanky, it's the passive from Integrity, mana shield proc that makes it seem this way, maybe looking at those skills that benefit them so much would be a better idea.

A cleric drops fairly quickly with no passive procs active, or flames

 

 

Raiders ... Feuer, how could you leave out the part about how absurdly over powered a raiders debuffs are? They can literally crit + crit def down dps classes to 5-30 critical defence rating, and 2/3rd's their critical rating, currently my raider which is hardly geared I'd say.. has a 46.99% accuracy debuff, 46.99% defense down debuff, 23.49% critical defense down, and 28.49% critical down.. Let me remind you that raiders are also given 10% critical rating from skill passives, 15% if they take up critical focus from the bow tree. This is way too many snowballing effects even when the dots are nerfed, you also have to remember they have melee auto attacking proc's should a-spd katar raiders come back into PvP to snowball even more damage. They've also got a sleep, for whatever reason I will never understand why a melee based assassin class has a ranged sleep, it's literally beyond me. Katar raiders need a COMPLETE rework to be honest, there is no adjusting one thing to make people do another, because any way you play a raider, it's absurdly superior in terms of damage... variability available to raiders is disgusting lets just put it at that. It's just a broken class. Rework it completely from the ground up please

 

 

Xbow scouts literally do not have enough defense % passives, or damage mitigation %. If they were given it they would be lack-luster when it comes to their health pool still, they need serious attention to become viable into the game meta that's played today. They're also miserable in the taunting department. How are you going to give a hybrid ranged tank a melee-length casted sleep that is literally pointless to consider it a sleep given the sleep time.. and the katar raider the ranged sleep that lasts much longer? Seems a bit backwards to me. A dual raider can get more defence than an x bow scout because of the defense passives given to them.. Not completely thought through to begin with I'd assume.

 

 

 

 

I'll talk more about classes later, that's all I had to say for now 

[Feuer]

No one likes to have their main nerfed, it doesn't mean it's not necessary. The Impact skill is blatantly overtuned and needs an adjustment to HOW it works, not, what it does thematically. 

PaS has too short a cooldown when compared to all other AoE DoT's. There's no arguing that. 

 

xBows are status tanks. They're not meant to tank un-blocked damage like a Knight. Hence, turning their 10% reduction to a temporary 50% Harmful Resistance buff on the same cooldown fits their role, play-style, flavor and function. Plus, their block rate is significantly higher than Knights, meaning they don't take unmitigated damage as often and thus don't need as much physical defense.

 

I left it off because they're meant to Crit and tear down critical defenses. The problem isn't their crit, it's the DoT's. I'm not going to suggest heavy-handed nerfs, I'm always fair on my input, regardless of peoples feels or their raging when they see anything lowering their mains potential. The only thing that could change is Katar Upper should have a longer duration, and a longer cool down. with a 75% upkeep time. That's it.

 

Clerics are tanky, and I'm not going to relent that point just because the FS community starts whining. To reiterate my facts.

Defense: They have the strongest defense passive in the game.

Block Rate: Can be as high as 70% with the passives and a proc w/ gem.

Block Amount: Comparable to all other blocking classes, both Physically and Magically.

Critical Defense: Highest potential in game outside of buff-slaves...

Self Healing: Don't even need to point this out, but why not.

Mute Resistance: Mystic Armor - Flat 50% Mute Resistance, plus 20% more when proc'd via mana shield. [only requires 1 sp into mana shield]. Total 70% mute resistance from taking 1sp and passives you're already going to get.

3 Purifies: Cure, Purify, Unique Purify. Totaling 6 Harmful status removals per 1 cast of each together.

Mute: ...

Sleeps: 1 Sleep, 1 AoE Sleep, 1 AoE Sleep with a DoT.

Damage Reduction: Unique Integ.

Dodge: It's not enough to notably build dodge Clerics, but they have the second highest baseline dodge of the 4 base classes. It's definitely enough to mess with non-accuracy / low accuracy mechanics.

 

Did I miss anything? Don't think so. Stop saying they're not tanky, it's a flat lie because of them being targetted often / first. Which is entirely because 1 Cleric can make the difference between a crushing defeat or a total steam rolling fest. 

Edited by Feuer, 18 August 2017 - 05:34 AM.

[Snuwfer]

 

Had hopes you were the right person to suggest changes to skill buildiing, you were part of the cause for the skills to be broken with, call me a fool I guess.

You, were, were you not? you spent the most time on Pegasus and giving feedback to paradigm update and you did get many things changed to your accordance... it's part of the reason why I quit when I did, because I did play Pegasus prior to paradigm shift update and I knew what was coming, maybe it just wasn't finished to what you wanted, but as of right now and where I stand after you've gone through and high-headed your horse, I give up.

 

edit~ I already seen the pre-edits.. I won't bother with putting anymore input on this thread

Edited by Snuwfer, 18 August 2017 - 05:44 AM.

[Feuer]

Challenge: 

 

1: Name the classes that are broken, that I specifically had input on. But I only worked on 2.

 

====

 

Paradigm Shift wasn't the skill update, where I spent the most time working on Class Balance. Paradigm Shift was about the Runes, which were poorly tested, and the testers were given very limited ability to test them. The majority of my time was spent trying to get runes, testing them at certain brackets, in pvp and pve [group pvp was impossible to organize and thus limited] and the other half the time was spent testing Elements. 

 

[Elovin]

Yes Mage is my main and yes i will complain about the shield nerf. Why do people not get that the shield is not spammable and that it is down in seconds with all the dots or skills. If mage shield would get nerfed as u recommend u can fully delete all mages from game cause noone can play it anymore. Why is a mage not supposed to be in melee hit range, we do have aoes which are cast around the own char, there are also single skills like staff stun which you cant cast from distance.

Plus mages are first target mostly so if the mage itself is not in range the opponent will come (raiders in stealth for example) Plus dont forget distance opponents like arti or scouts.

The six second are long enough! Sometimes all i can do in wars is spamming shield cause i am getting non stop attacked and often enough my shield is on cooldown and i die. The shield takes tons of ur Mana already! I have a lot of mana and a good mana recovery and still i run out of mana often enough!

Cooldown 10-15 seconds for real, please play pvp mage and u will understand.

Id suggest to nerf the range from mages, their ranges nowadays are higher than scouts or artis, if u get the passives and runes.

Also in dungeons i feel like mages and clerics get attacked first by mobs, maybe just a feeling but a shield is definitely needed! It already got nerfed! Another nerf would destroy the hole class.

 

You complain about an arti being paper and want to nerf down mages now to the same level or worse?!?

 

[Feuer]

Yes Mage is my main and yes i will complain about the shield nerf. Why do people not get that the shield is not spammable and that it is down in seconds with all the dots or skills. If mage shield would get nerfed as u recommend u can fully delete all mages from game cause noone can play it anymore. Why is a mage not supposed to be in melee hit range, we do have aoes which are cast around the own char, there are also single skills like staff stun which you cant cast from distance.

Plus mages are first target mostly so if the mage itself is not in range the opponent will come (raiders in stealth for example) Plus dont forget distance opponents like arti or scouts.

The six second are long enough! Sometimes all i can do in wars is spamming shield cause i am getting non stop attacked and often enough my shield is on cooldown and i die. The shield takes tons of ur Mana already! I have a lot of mana and a good mana recovery and still i run out of mana often enough!

Cooldown 10-15 seconds for real, please play pvp mage and u will understand.

Id suggest to nerf the range from mages, their ranges nowadays are higher than scouts or artis, if u get the passives and runes.

Also in dungeons i feel like mages and clerics get attacked first by mobs, maybe just a feeling but a shield is definitely needed! It already got nerfed! Another nerf would destroy the hole class.

 

You complain about an arti being paper and want to nerf down mages now to the same level or worse?!?

 

"Why do people not get that the shield is not spammable"
Because it's spammable. 6 second cooldown is very short. You cast the Barrier, Cast 2-3 Skills, and you can Recast the Barrier. If you were to re-cast the barrier any faster than that, you wouldn't be doing any damage now would you.

 

"Why is mage not supposed to be in melee hit range"

Because it's a ranged class.

 

"We do have aoes which are cast around the own char, there are also single skills like staff stun which you can't cast from distance"

All Melee Range AoE's on Mages are hyper punishing. Either severe dodge downs, massive Burn DoT's, powerful movement speed downs, or modified to be mutes. Staff stun is specifically designed for you to interrupt and start kiting melee players. It's not there to make you a melee combatant. It's to counter, then escape. 

 

"Plus mage are first target mostly"
Wrong.
From first priority to last

Cleric/Artisan > Scout > Bourge > Champs > Mages > Raider > Knight.

Spoiler

Cleric first because of support, Artisan next or equal because of high burst potential but also extremely easy to kill, takes about 2-3 large Hits / DoT's.

Scouts next, because they have a low HP pool, and are easily bullied into Camo / fleeing.

Bourge next due to AoE Burn's damage potential, but also because they're the next easiest target to kill.

Champs come next regardless of Weapon choice, due to them not having any defensive cooldowns and being 100% reliant on healing from other classes. They're capable of Modest DPS and high burst, but ultimately are easy prey.

Mage is next. They're capable of dealing large damage, but trying to break a mage's bubble, CC them to prevent it from being recast, all while trying to prevent them from being healed during the CC, makes them a bit more than a challenge to kill. The best tactic when fighting a group with a Mage, is to bully the Mage, to force it to recast barriers as often as they can, but not necessarily try to kill it, just keep it busy while your team brutalizes Clerics, Artisans and Bourgs.

Raider is second to last priority, as they can double stealth, CC, and dodge almost any class easily. They're annoying, capable of extremely high DPS, but ultimately there are almost always higher priority / easier targets to kill.

Knights are last because they're damage sponges and take 5 people a good 10-20 seconds to kill.

 

"Plus don't forget distance opponents like Scouts or Artis"

Mages are the second highest Range class in the game. Followed by Scouts, then Gun's, then Cannons, then xBows. If you choose not to take your range passives then I don't want to hear it. Not playing a ranged class to it's fullest range advantage then trying to use that poor decision making to present it as a problem all Mages face is intentionally misleading and obfuscating the facts. 

 

"Please play a pvp mage and you will understand."
XionIIXIX [before I deleted it] Thanks for your assumption that I don't know what I'm talking about. I mained a Mage for about 6 months. Next.

 

"Also in dungeons i feel like mages and clerics get attacked first by mobs, maybe just a feeling but a shield is definitely needed! "

Aggro is based on a multitude of factors. First hit, highest DPS potential, first to hit after a Daze, Sleep or Stun, Lowest statistics attacking the mob, etc. But a shield is not needed. In fact, you can run a wind Mage in dungeons without Barrier at all simply by having some core DEX, and Dodge w/ Wind Mastery. The Barrier on top just makes you a demi-god in dungeons.

 

"You complain about an arti being paper and want to nerf down mages now to the same level or worse?!?"

I'll use your logic here. Go play a PvP Arti to end-game, earn a full set of honor gear while wearing exalted to farm for it. Earn your first rune [valor or honor, take your pick]. Go on. Or would I be assuming you don't / haven't. 

Edited by Feuer, 18 August 2017 - 12:03 PM.

[Phish]

Intersting thread. There are alot of worthy points being presented but I'll chime in more when I can access a computer.

Im still out of date on some classes; how much of a barrier does mana shield give on average on a competent mage? All I know is they are more durable in pvp relative to other classes than they have ever been in the past.

[Elovin]

 

6 second cooldown is very short. You cast the Barrier, Cast 2-3 Skills, and you can Recast the Barrier. If you were to re-cast the barrier any faster than that, you wouldn't be doing any damage now would you.

Eh no !? You fully ignore stuns mutes dots and more than one opponent here. When we talk about 1 vs 1 u might be correct on a few classes as opponent only tho! Still recasting a shield does not mean the mage is immortal

Mages can drop in 2 seconds, Shield down and hp down, stun dot hit, mostly more than one opponent on it anyways, done.

 

"Mages are range classes" u can not just says that. I for example have 4 aoes around myself, which force me to get in contact with the opponent and STILL have range opponents on me plus closer targets now. I still suggest to get rid of the skill range passives so mages are still distance players but are forced to get a certain range to the opponent so the shield makes sense again. You can not say my mage is nonsense cause i dont have the skill range passives. Imo getting rid of those would balance a lot.

 

6 months of mainign a mage, did u play pvp i somehow never saw u? Have u joined wars have u joined AA? Dont tell me u never ran out of mana dont tell me u never died cause ur shield is on cooldown dont tell me you never had tons of people on you and dont tell me that people first go on the scout when a mage has the option to free skill. Join AA or a war and see "fs first then mage" not saying that arti or bourg are not also one of the first targets but from what i know i ALWAYS have atleast one person on me and mostly more. Maybe you were lucky cause your mage was not well known, or not fully geared or not seen as a dangerous opponent, but known mages, are mostly first or second target, but atleast one person is always on it.

 

Mute traps, mute skills, stuns are used a lot which means an insta death for mages when it gets hit at the same time.

Taking off 50% of the shield would make a shield fully useless, tripple mp costs are ridiculous and then ALSO 10-15 second nerf on it ... Why getting a shield then when two skills, or one crit or dots take it off anyways lmao, it would FORCE me to play on high distance, hide behind walls, or anything i can see, i would not be able to use my not range skills anymore. any raider stealthing to me could kill me with a few hits.... no thank u this is ridiculous and fully exaggerated. The shield is definitely needed. And yes I agree that those long range mages sometimes dont need it cause they hide behind a wall or anything, so get rid of the range passives then, get scouts and artis or anyone a chance to hit first again and give the shield its function back.

[Feuer]

2v1 you should lose if all other things are fairly accounted for. That's just poor decision making and completely invalidates everything you have to say about that situation.

 

'u can not just says that."
I just did. 

[Elovin]

No its a lack of your knowledge and experience about pvp mages i guess.

Trust me mages die often if u you believe it or not. When you should nerf something then it aint the shield and especially not in this way LOL

 

You point out your own ideas and ideals as the only way to play and as the correct way, which just aint true especially when you consider how poorly u play it nowadays. (Plus especially mages give tons of options to play)

You are active on forums, activly trying to bring up new stuff (like the mastery system, which is quite cool) but in the end u r trying to create a rose online after you own ideas, so that you would start to play it again and spend time in getting runes and stuff or what ever, but totally ignore the comments and suggestions from two people here now who do still activly play and talk about their main chars. Sorry if we think about stuff differently

Maybe try not to be so offended by our suggestions and comments, i mean you already get personal and try to invalid my thoughts just cause I disagree on yours.

 

Cheers

 

 

 

[noobazov]

I gotta agree with Elovin about the Mana shield cooldown , if u turn it into 10-15sec cooldown , mages are doomed.

Mages arent capable of staying alive when the mana shield is down ,  mages have a really power defence and max hp , a strong dot raider can break this shield in 2-3 seconds.

[Feuer]

Look if everyone's just going to complain about progress, I can simply stop proposing balance changes, and just start asking for buffs for my main like everyone else until I'm satisfied with being over powered but claiming I'm not [like everyone else]. You want to make progress, you make an investment. 

 

Something to think about that Leonis used to tell me on a regular basis.

"If a class relies on 1 skill to be functional, the class is fundamentally broken already, and is only relying on a broken mechanic to remain valid. From a Developer's point of view, that's not acceptable. The better option is always to address the over powered skill, and buff other traits until the class in functioning normally on it's own."

.... or we can just do the whole 'who can get the most buffs and become over powered thing.' Take your pick. 

Edited by Feuer, 19 August 2017 - 12:44 AM.

[Elovin]

 

Look if everyone's just going to complain about progress, I can simply stop proposing balance changes, and just start asking for buffs for my main like everyone else until I'm satisfied with being over powered but claiming I'm not [like everyone else]

 

Now you start overreactting, and getting a little stubborn Mister Feuer!

So right now two people talked about their main chars and showed their doubt on ur suggestions. Tbh i did not fully read Snufwers part, but non of us was saying that all this is nonsense. We just showed doubt on a few of ur suggestions.

Why not take them as input and progress, rethink about stuff and maybe change a bit, why does ur solution has to be the only one.

 

Back to the mages, your Mana shield nerf might not fully destroy pvm mages, but as u said they would need to be dodge build to run through dgs, it would just take away certain options on how to play a mage. But i said "might" on purpose cause i can not talk for pvm mages since i dont have one.

Sharing a topic like this on forums ofc will lead to people answering, bringin ideas or even complain about stuff, but in this way u just get a more detailed view into certain classes, cause (no offense) but if you really had played a max and fully geard pvp mage and been active in wars and pvp zone you would never suggest a nerf like this.

 

 

To your leonis quote, since i am on this server mages have had a mana shield ( so always been "broken"), back then for real spamable, there have been good but also bad times for mages even with shield. I still suggest the range passive nerf so that the shield gets its funtion back and the "old" nerf makes sense again, but i am repeating myself

 

The classes are not balanced atm, true, working on this is a good thing. Tho please be open minded to other peoples opinions, especially when they are talking about their main char.

 

 

 

[Feuer]

To conclude:

 

Snuwfer: Don't touch my scouts, they're under-powered and I don't want them to be worse.

Noob+Elovin: Don't touch my Mage, they're too weak and soft and I don't want new mechanics if it means having a shield that's not over powered.

 

The reiterated as,

We're not saying progress isn't needed, we just don't want to have to sacrifice anything to get new stuff instead. We just want only new stuff and no nerfs. Maybe you should rethink it and only make it buffs.

 

 

That's what I'm getting from the thread so far.

IF that's what everyone wants, nothing but 'buff balancing', then I can completely reword all of this to were classes like xBow Scouts get a 300% Defense Bonus, and Mages can keep their shield as is, and gain like 15%-30% defense. Those numbers look completely unfair, but if you actually time how quickly a xBow Scout dies compared to a Mage across all metrics, that's precisely what the fix would need to look like. 

 

 

[Elovin]

apparently it makes no sense to continue talking with you about this topic, you are stubborn and cant stay objective and try to make any other opinion invalid so i wont continue wasting my time here.

 

Its a difference to shut down people with good arguments or just to talk them down with non objective answers which try to stultify any of their comments.

 

[Feuer]

I literally just extended a second option that doesn't nerf or reduce any current skills / stats, and you're calling me stubborn and not open to alternative options. To me, it sounds like you're the one who's not open to outside opinion, seeing as I've given 2 methods to address the situation, and all you've done is criticize me for not being flexible. 

[Phish]

And this exactly why large balance changes should be put on Pegasus and not made live.

Edited by Phish, 19 August 2017 - 08:53 AM.

[Feuer]

And this exactly why large balance changes should be put on Pegasus and not made live.

 

Well yeah, I agree. That's why I posted it to the Pegasus Dev labs sub-forum instead of just the normal Class Discussion area. 

[KatsuraKujo]

I have some suggestions you can add into yours
Spear Champ

Give them a 3 hit passive or something or that sort (depends on how fast they can bloody hit at one time) that can stun people for about 1-2 seconds, not too hard of a cc but still cc notherless

 

Axe Champ

The healing can be done by just making it a flat damage with like 40% damage dealt to opponent, but cannot crit, hey its an idea :v

 

Sword Knights

% health damages with like, 15s CD? that's some help there to boost the meat shieldness of knights (well of course after the defenses are toned down)

 

Mage

I think bubble cooldown increase is already enough to not make it as spammable, like 15-20s sounds alright so they cannot relay on it as often. (Leaving the bubble as is with its CD increased is fine since it can be broken down quite fast, this again depends on the rest of the class balancing)

Others

YESSSSSSSS PLSSSSSSSSS

 

Clerics

YES PLEASE AND THANK YOU gesus this class, i love this class, and i'm in dungeon like... wait... i'm the tank?

 

Katar

Considering PVM, please at least make a PVM version of those DoT burns as it is bloody useful for dungeons and king farming (to whoever that still does that) IF the CD was increased 50% that is. Damage scaling, basically for only that one skill for the final burn. That skill damage is like 200%+ or something of that sort, when you have like 1.4k ad, that's a lot LOL. Others are around 100%+ as well, so yeah. I mean sure, you can deal a lot of damage being a skill based katar, but 2 times your AD is kinda... catchy

2 Invi, shared cooldown, sure go ahead, sounds better so pick to be fully invisible and run away, or invisible and can attack for a few times before revealing yourself.

 

Crit Weakness and Dual Passive

YESSSSSS PLSSSSSSSSS

 

Others i have no input on as i don't play those classes and have no idea how they are in PvP as i don't even bring mine to PvP... (not yet, but lazy to get back to this game anyways)

I'll just stick around to see how this suggestion goes. Ciao