133 replies to this topic

[VioletCat]

The rewards for guild quests are a great idea. But after your guild gets to max level/if guild level doesn't matter to guild members there's pretty much only the social aspect of guilds left together with EW for those who participate. And guild quests give the same rewards regardless of the guild level so that's more like something people can even only do for their own benefit without caring too much about the guild they're in. I understand the concern about newer guilds having a hard time catching up to old ones so I think the difference in rewards on higher guild levels shouldn't be too big. Maybe instead try to make the effort put on any guild level the deciding factor in how good what you're getting is? But this idea probably has its flaws as well.

Again as I said before in the topic, personally I'd be happy to see more additions to guilds. But it feels like it's not a priority for most since some guild-related changes were already made.

It also feels like we have a lot of exp increasing items in the game right now so having it as a buff for the whole guild for a limited time instead of getting an exp potion sounds good to me.

[Yuumikitsu]

Anything that higher level guilds have over lower level guilds discourage creating guilds and joining lower level ones, that's just how it works. People rather join the guild where they can get the benefits immediately.

 

But just because people would rather join higher leved guilds shouldn't dismiss the idea of making something that high level guilds can work more on and evolve the guild by either getting more spots or temporary buffs etc. If it discourages people from creating guilds then why are more and more guilds being created all the time? A guild can always have the chance to become bigger and it's a part of the game that some people would like to experience meanwhile others only like joining a guild that's high on the rankings. I've even seen applications that says: "Another high ranked guild didn't accept me so please let me in". This is personal preferences about if you wanna have the journey of making a new guild or not. All guilds need to start at some point and I don't see why rewards that are being worked for instead of given as I first suggested would make these people that wanna make a guild reconsider their opinion. Maybe that's just my view of the situation.

[easykill1215]

Here's another idea for the merc system.

 

So if you guys don't want to delete the merc system but also want to keep it for it's purpose to "let the weak guilds have a chance to compete" then we need a balance for the current system, a limit.

 

A limit of 3-5 mercenaries to each guild seems to be enough. I don't know if the limit will be better if it's lower than 5 but it shouldn't be more than 5. Having 5 more people to fight in EW already boosts the winrate of a guild a lot, especially if that guild already has a decent squad with 7-10 people.

 

So why a limit is necessary? Everyone knows the current situation of EW already, if a guild opens merc and wins EW, at least 80% of the contribution to their victories come from the mercenaries and not from them, which is very imbalanced. The merc system is supposed to be something to "let the weak guilds have chance to compete" only, but if they want to win, they should have some of their own power as well. It can't be just merc-to-win and the own guild does nothing.

 

5 is also half or more than half of the squad of most of the "big guilds" right now so by having 5 mercenaries, the guild that opens merc already received 50% of the power to compete with the big guild, they should bring the other 50% power by themselves to achieve a victory...

 

This limit alongside with a change that makes the mercenaries be bound to the guild they choose to merc (so if they lose with the guild they merc, they can't change to merc another guild to have a second try even after they lost) will make the merc system become much more balanced without having to delete it.

 

For the problem about guild hoppers (to fight EW), a simple system that doesn't let them join EW unless they're already in the guild for a certain amount of time (7 or 14 days) will be enough.

 

So... yeah   

 

 

[Dragonlark]

As a reminder, please keep this thread on the original topic. Further off topic comments will result in this thread being locked. In addition, please know that making accusations about another player or guild on the forums is against our terms of service. If you have a concern of this kind please send a ticket to our support team so they can investigate the matter. 

[Precrush]

It's about this:

I'd like to mention that in a game like clash of clans, which is a game based purely on clans hence the name have hit a dead end when they included a leveling+reward system and have admitted that. Saying that having levels and perks given out deters players from joining low level clans and that adding more levels would widen the gap further. It's tough to pin point the way to reward players properly in the eyes of a developer without it being abusive, or scare players from making a new guild to compete with one another.

 

Take that into consideration. Giving permanent buffs or skills maybe quite unhealthy compared to giving consumables/titles so that it wouldn't matter as much if a player were to join a big guild or a small one.

Having an Exco system for guilds maybe beneficial with the appropriate/fair reward.

 

 

But just because people would rather join higher leved guilds shouldn't dismiss the idea of making something that high level guilds can work more on and evolve the guild by either getting more spots or temporary buffs etc. If it discourages people from creating guilds then why are more and more guilds being created all the time? A guild can always have the chance to become bigger and it's a part of the game that some people would like to experience meanwhile others only like joining a guild that's high on the rankings. I've even seen applications that says: "Another high ranked guild didn't accept me so please let me in". This is personal preferences about if you wanna have the journey of making a new guild or not. All guilds need to start at some point and I don't see why rewards that are being worked for instead of given as I first suggested would make these people that wanna make a guild reconsider their opinion. Maybe that's just my view of the situation.

It doesn't dismiss it, it just has to be taken into consideration. More guilds will always be created because even if somebody is discouraged to do something it doesn't mean they wont do it. Just means it's less likely. Likewise a new guild getting big becomes less likely the bigger rewards other guilds already have. Like many things in the world its a trade off, established guilds get more exciting(positive) while establishing a guild gets harder(negative). This is what happens, its not a matter of opinion.

 

This is a problem with all the recent ideas we've had here too. Even if guilds of all levels had the opportunity to get the same rewards for their guild exp or some other points this would still factor in because higher level guilds would be more likely to have the points to spend on benefits more often since they have more players. If you think about current guild leveling for example you'll notice that getting rewards(=more levels) gets harder the bigger the guild levels is while not really giving that much more rewards than the previous level had. This means that a lvl 1 guild is pretty much the same as a lvl 6 one. I don't know if widening that gap Agitodesu talked about is worthwhile since like I said before, the current system is just fine as is.

 

And when I say I don't know I really do mean I don't. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't, it's impossible to say before hand. That's not the point, the point is that any further rewards would have to be carefully thought out and balanced. And then you have to consider that if they add a system like buffs for some guild points, that's gonna mean making other things in the future (own castle for every guild that the guild could upgrade for example?) becomes even harder. Game development is not easy

Edited by Precrush, 19 December 2017 - 10:02 AM.

[Yuumikitsu]

It doesn't dismiss it, it just has to be taken into consideration. More guilds will always be created because even if somebody is discouraged to do something it doesn't mean they wont do it. Just means it's less likely. Likewise a new guild getting big becomes less likely the bigger rewards other guilds already have. Like many things in the world its a trade off, established guilds get more exciting(positive) while establishing a guild gets harder(negative). This is what happens, its not a matter of opinion.

 

This is a problem with all the recent ideas we've had here too. Even if guilds of all levels had the opportunity to get the same rewards for their guild exp or some other points this would still factor in because higher level guilds would be more likely to have the points to spend on benefits more often since they have more players. If you think about current guild leveling for example you'll notice that getting rewards(=more levels) gets harder the bigger the guild levels is while not really giving that much more rewards than the previous level had. This means that a lvl 1 guild is pretty much the same as a lvl 6 one. I don't know if widening that gap Agitodesu talked about is worthwhile since like I said before, the current system is just fine as is.

 

And when I say I don't know I really do mean I don't. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't, it's impossible to say before hand. That's not the point, the point is that any further rewards would have to be carefully thought out and balanced. And then you have to consider that if they add a system like buffs for some guild points, that's gonna mean making other things in the future (own castle for every guild that the guild could upgrade for example?) becomes even harder. Game development is not easy

 

I know it's not easy and that's why I'm trying to keep on coming up with new ideas and easier solutions to a new system like this. I know the current system is fine as it is and I do know that there are both negatives and positives about this. I don't know about you but personally it feels like there's not much to work on a guild, I don't mean that it should go as far as to give each and every guild their own castle but I do think that working on even more things to give guilds a way to evolve or spend more time working on a way to bring the guild members togheter to get something that benefits the whole guild for an amount of time. How about we step back a bit then and let's say that you can use the buffs at guild level 1 as you stated before, this way every guild could use these buffs and maybe just upgrade them as the current guild buff system we have right now but for another currency that you get from doing guild quests. Also I disagree with the fact that a lvl 1 guild is pretty much the same as a lvl 6 one since there's a huge amount of dedication put into a lvl 6 guild and it's not just something you can do in a day or a week. You're not fond of the idea of creating a new basis for a system such as this and I understand that since you think of the downsides that it would bring and referring to what Agito mentioned about Clash of Clans as well.

 

I'm happy with where this forum post has brought us to so far and maybe it's harder than I thought to create a new system for such a thing. But I'm happy that we are sharing our ideas because if they were to make one in the future then at least they could take a thing or two into consideration from what we have discussed here. It's true that guilds are giving the same thing when leveling up that is about 10 more guild slots and 1 more vice but it adds up over time and if they were to make something like this, your example of an exp buff ranging from 1,1x to 1,6x wouldn't be too far off the kind of rewards that we are already receiving but if it was turned into something that you had to work extra for to activate it then it would make players more involved with it and wanna keep on working on the guild as it's a part of the game that a lot of players feel like home at and wanna spend more time togheter. Maybe a kind of idea that could bring them togheter more even if they reached max level or even if they have max gear such as working as a guild and getting upgrades for it doesn't sound bad at all to me.

 

If you wanna discuss this further we can do so and also if anyone else would like to add their opinions such as VioletCat it would be nice cause it would make it easier to find a middle spot the more people there are contributing.

 

I would also like to add that we came to this point by discussing over the kind of system I first offered so if this comment: "As a reminder, please keep this thread on the original topic. Further off topic comments will result in this thread being locked. In addition, please know that making accusations about another player or guild on the forums is against our terms of service. If you have a concern of this kind please send a ticket to our support team so they can investigate the matter. " was directed to our current chat about this as well then it's technically not off topic but rather many thoughts that lead from one thing to another and landed where it is at now. I could change the title if I find a way to do so as to make it a bit less missleading if comments are made about my initial post. But only if it's necessary for the sake of our discussion.

 

Edit: "You're not fond of the idea of creating a new basis for a system such as this and I understand that since you think of the downsides that it would bring and referring to what Agito mentioned about Clash of Clans as well." this may have seen a bit too harsh and I would just like to say that this is my understanding of what your opinion is on this matter so correct me if I'm wrong. I didn't mean to say that I know how you think and feel about this as it may have sounded like. Sorry.

Edited by Yuumikitsu, 19 December 2017 - 10:56 AM.

[Precrush]

I mean that the benefits you get from being in a level 6 guild are not significant enough for it to differ much from a level 1 guild. So the gap between high and low level guilds is really small in DS, which you can clearly see results in new guilds popping up all the time.

 

The point with the castle thing was that there's probably room for only one additional system of this kind, and depending on what that is it'll still have negative side effects that might be too much for a change to be worth it. Personally a system that a guild could work toward together would benefit me greatly but thinking about it now I don't want it to have anything to do with guild quests. I've done so many dailies already that a piece of content that would be basically the same but with a different reward would just feel dull. Especially with monster cards now being under a similar system. So in my opinion we should go back to the drawing board and leave guild quests as they are as well.

Edited by Precrush, 19 December 2017 - 10:57 AM.

[Yuumikitsu]

I mean that the benefits you get from being in a level 6 guild are not significant enough for it to differ much from a level 1 guild. So the gap between high and low level guilds is really small in DS, which you can clearly see results in new guilds popping up all the time.

 

The point with the castle thing was that there's probably room for only one additional system of this kind, and depending on what that is it'll still have negative side effects that might be too much for a change to be worth it. Personally a system that a guild could work toward together would benefit me greatly but thinking about it now I don't want it to have anything to do with guild quests. I've done so many dailies already that a piece of content that would be basically the same but with a different reward would just feel dull. Especially with monster cards now being under a similar system. So in my opinion we should go back to the drawing board and leave guild quests as they are as well.

 

I agree with all the things you've stated and it's true that it makes the guild quests a bit dull after a while but do you have any basic ideas of what could be a good system to achieve the goal of making the whole guild work towards togheter but not become too repetitive? My thoughts are moving towards world bosses that can appear which can show up as a guild bounty system where you can work togheter to defeat it and give rewards to the whole guild after doing it or maybe a rework on the Dungeons provided at Steven in Port of the winds could be an option of making this into reality. Still something that would make the guild get a stronger connection more than a social aspect would greatly benefit not only the playerbase as a whole but also getting to know more people as you have something to do togheter more often. This is just my idea that popped up after thinking a little while and once again if it's starting to get off topic I'll change the title and edit my initial post a bit but this discussion is fun and lets me speak out my mind on ideas that could become an option later on if we work togheter on it.

Edited by Yuumikitsu, 19 December 2017 - 11:24 AM.

[9695160709113702883]

Hi all,

 

I think this fits into this topic, so I will just add this here.

 

Many of the "bigger" guilds in this game already experienced that several times: Mercenary abuse.
Since some weeks it seems to be a common thing, that random guilds, without a high number of (geared) players in it, just win the Emporia War. In the last four weeks only those guilds won the EW, which had the mercenary function ON (and have some specific players joining their team, but I will dive deeper into that in the next paragraph). So lately, guilds who try to build up a team by their own do not even have a small chance to win the EW. 
 

Those players, who play as mercenaries for those random guilds, are allways the same ones. It is already known by literally every EW active guild/player, that those specific guys do not participate in Emporia with their own guild, just to be able to do that every single week. And those guys are mostly joining as mercenaries with more then 15 highly geared players, so it is geting just impossible to win against that.

I think everyone who is just reading the trade-chat sometimes already noticed that this caused a lot of trouble for our small Dragon Saga community already. It came so far that some players are saying that they will just quit and give up the game, if the mercenary function keeps geting abused like this! And there is nothing to say against this... it is a fact that you can not win the EW without opening merc's and having those specific guys (i mentioned before) on your side.

So me and some other players have some ideas which might be a solution for this huge problem:

1. One player can only join as a mercenary ALL THREE WEEKS, so a single player has to take a break of two weeks after joining the EW as a mercenary.
2. Players who are joining the EW as a mercenary can only achieve points in EW by doing kills (2 Points each kill). BUT NOT by fulfilling EW-quests (e.g. "Attack any Magician" which gives 6 Points).
3. Completely REMOVE the mercenary function from the Emporia War system, since it is a complete redundant thing. 
    A competitive "Guild War" in general means that guilds are building up their own team to fight against other guilds. And this thing is completely missunderstood when it comes to the mercenary function.
    Non-guild-related fights can be still done in the Battle Square, all three hours.
 
Greetings.
 

 

Edited by 9695160709113702883, 06 January 2018 - 02:26 PM.

[6640170311065758930]

jepp, thats right. I think its really better to change the system in empo ... or make other rules.   Sry 4 my bad eng.

[Elplaysdrago]

I agree with my preposter, also his different possible solutions are well-considered.

 

Maybe one could also think about a quantitative limitation for mercenaries (for example when Guild X is in Emporia war with 5 guild-members also only 5 mercenaries could join)+maybe a maximum limit for number of mercenaries.

 

The whole problem with the mercenaries has become really big, I don't even wanna join the EW anymore.

[Comrock]

I agree with you that the mercenary system is misunderstood by many. It's actually called a guild versus a guild and not a guild against mercenaries. I think a good idea is to abolish mercenary system so every guild has the same chance

 

Edited by Comrock, 06 January 2018 - 02:54 PM.

[stiffyliffyriffy]

Make emporia wars a pve game so that every guild has a chance to win. Same people complaining.

Make it pve everyone wins

Edited by stiffyliffyriffy, 06 January 2018 - 03:13 PM.

[Lohuis]

Those are some good options to improve the current EW system

[stiffyliffyriffy]

Why doesn't everyone just open merc? or why do people feel the need to send the minimal amount of people to emporia when some guilds have over 100 members.

[TheLittleGrey]

I agree with my preposter, also his different possible solutions are well-considered.

 

Maybe one could also think about a quantitative limitation for mercenaries (for example when Guild X is in Emporia war with 5 guild-members also only 5 mercenaries could join)+maybe a maximum limit for number of mercenaries.

 

The whole problem with the mercenaries has become really big, I don't even wanna join the EW anymore.

 

I REALLY agree with that   

[Stophy]

Make emporia wars a pve game so that every guild has a chance to win. Same people complaining.

Make it pve everyone wins

Emporia system will not be touched that way lol. Popcorn said the system will not be touched.

Stop trolling.

 

What would it bring if every guild opens merc? There would not randomly appear 20-50 op people who would influence the emporia war system.

 

And not every guild with 100 people has 100 op people who are able to participate at emporia war. 

[stiffyliffyriffy]

Emporia system will not be touched that way lol. Popcorn said the system will not be touched.
Stop trolling.

What would it bring if every guild opens merc? There would not randomly appear 20-50 op people who would influence the emporia war system.

And not every guild with 100 people has 100 op people who are able to participate at emporia war.

You mean they aren't willing to upgrade their gear and compete at the same level as other guilds available? What is troll about a pve EW system? It already exists when fighting for 1star and 2 star guilds. You kill a dragon dont even need to attack players.

[stiffyliffyriffy]

Alright instead of same people posting the same thing that they all agree with the poster, I’ll say something a bit more productive.

It was a community wide understanding that before, if you open your guild up to mercenaries, you take a huge risk, for example, someone who is unskilled or ungeared going in and the other side getting points off him from missions or kills.

However, due to recent events, that’s not happening but you’re forgetting the basics of Emporia and the big guilds that are losing are in an uproar. The fastest way to get points is through missions and good missions is totally RNG and not only is it RNG itself, the missions gotta line up with the other side’s classes. So that’s two factors people are not taking in account.

The fact that these big guilds have 100+ members in them but when Emporia comes, we only see 6-10 of their members join.
If you’re going to argue that the side with mercenary on has way more people in the match, why not let every member in the guild join Emporia to increase the chances of them having a good mission and completing it? The guilds that open mercenaries are taking a bigger risk by potentially allowing random people in.

Also the fact that these big guilds are using only 1 type of class to enter Emporia makes it harder for the Guild with mercenary to get points from.
I think people forget that Emporia at its core is RNG based so in a match, any side can win

Edited by stiffyliffyriffy, 06 January 2018 - 03:57 PM.

[stiffyliffyriffy]

so you wana say if the max amount is 10 or 15 it would be fairer?

Nope. Im just saying that everyone can be stacked equally and the number of players allowed to enter EW is already limited. EW again is completely RNG based on the missions. Its about how the players play against others. There is a guild that strategically use one class and hop islands and win by collecting points. You get 20-22 points per mission accomplished vs 2 points for actually defeating an opponent.

[Dynasto]

Nope. Im just saying that everyone can be stacked equally and the number of players allowed to enter EW is already limited. EW again is completely RNG based on the missions. Its about how the players play against others. There is a guild that strategically use one class and hop islands and win by collecting points. You get 20-22 points per mission accomplished vs 2 points for actually defeating an opponent.

 

Why would low geared people join a random guild to merc? They fould feed and this isnt allowed..

 

And maybe IF there are low geared people joining a random team they, why would they do? And it does not happen that there is a group of ~15 low geared people (who are in a guild maybe or friends) who wana help a guild to "win" the emporia war.

[VioletCat]

I'm sorry cause this is most likely off topic but since many started discussing, I have some thoughts on it as well.

 

Alright instead of same people posting the same thing that they all agree with the poster, I’ll say something a bit more productive.

It was a community wide understanding that before, if you open your guild up to mercenaries, you take a huge risk, for example, someone who is unskilled or ungeared going in and the other side getting points off him from missions or kills.

However, due to recent events, that’s not happening but you’re forgetting the basics of Emporia and the big guilds that are losing are in an uproar. The fastest way to get points is through missions and good missions is totally RNG and not only is it RNG itself, the missions gotta line up with the other side’s classes. So that’s two factors people are not taking in account.

The fact that these big guilds have 100+ members in them but when Emporia comes, we only see 6-10 of their members join.
If you’re going to argue that the side with mercenary on has way more people in the match, why not let every member in the guild join Emporia to increase the chances of them having a good mission and completing it? The guilds that open mercenaries are taking a bigger risk by potentially allowing random people in.

Also the fact that these big guilds are using only 1 type of class to enter Emporia makes it harder for the Guild with mercenary to get points from.
I think people forget that Emporia at its core is RNG based so in a match, any side can win

 

It's true that having mercenary option on has its risks. However the PvP/BSQ/EW/whatever we're going to call it community isn't very big. The time Emporia is at is also not very good for some since there are players from everywhere around the world. I have the feeling that this makes the chance of unskilled or ungeared people joining in randomly lower. And that's how it becomes a problem if you organize a group of skilled and geared players who can side with another group of such players.

 

And how are people not taking the basics of Emporia in account? RNG sure does play a role in Emporia. But it's in your favor if you have more players participating (as long as they're not gearless people who just jump around or die which aren't seen often for reasons I explained) because they get more missions per 3 minutes. The class thing would be less of a problem if you couldn't choose what classes can join as mercenaries. Otherwise guilds that use mercenaries can also benefit from having fewer classes.

 

There's a problem with letting every player in a big guild join, I believe it's not so often that 25 players of the same guild are online even if the said guild is considered big for the game's standards. Not to mention that even if there are that many online many of them could just be PvE players. That's why it becomes an issue when people from multiple guilds fight together, it's just often unfair because of the amount of players from each side.

 

I might be wrong but I think it's rare to see people using only one type of class in Emporia and if they do it usually makes the number of people joining even lower because of the class requirements. So the other team having more missions could make up for the class differences. Not saying it happens every time since RNG exists but there's a good chance for it.

 

I think that mercenaries could work well if the PvP community was bigger but even then the system has certain flaws. Just stating my opinion, I hope it won't be considered as a part of the big guilds being in an uproar thing. 

[Yuumikitsu]

I already gave my opinions earlier in this topic so I'm not gonna add anything but I just wanted to say that you guys should remember to keep this civil if you wanna talk about it, no calling names or messages out of frustration/anger. Think of what you're writing no matter if you disagree with someone's opinion or not.

Edited by Yuumikitsu, 06 January 2018 - 05:07 PM.

[Starkespada1]

 I don't believe a threat for posting something here was needed. We all have the right to share our opinions. 

 

 

I was just going to lurk and watch this go down but when people start telling lies and trying to twist something into "threats" when the person in the Screen Shot is simply asking a question with no malicious intent, then that's when we know people are trying to push their agenda no matter the cost. You can make it sound over dramatic but the screen shot clearly shows the truth lol

[Starkespada1]

 

Usually I would like to let the Merc system how it is. 

 

But if there are more than 3 people of a single guild, it should be count as ill-mannered which means point 4 of the rules wich popcorn already mentioned in this post!

 

 

I think An emblem over a players head shouldn't constitute the amount of people that can participate as a merc that seems very odd to me, people have merc'd for years and believe it or not more than 3 people from 1 guild have merc'd countless times over those years. This is my opinion of course though. 

 

Honestly we've heard from the big guilds and the mercs the people are complaining about, but have we hear the opinions from the smaller guilds who genuinely need help? I feel like people are just throwing the smaller guilds who would basically never see the 1 star or 2 star castle out in the cold to fend for themselves just so that everyone can mold Mercs to something that benefits them. 

 

That will be all from me for now anyways, you guys can go back to agreeing with each other on every single topic enjoy your day

Edited by Starkespada1, 06 January 2018 - 05:31 PM.