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Rain of fire : Burn effect vs frog or sleep


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#1 zirothos

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 12:20 PM

Hello everyone. The rain of Fire skill has an effect of Burn. And with this effect comes some ultra-low damage over time (mana and hp damage), yes even on a lv 10 burn. But we are not here to talk about this low damage but the after match of this damage over time.

 

Sleep and Frog cause player to not be able to attack for a long period of time, but is remove if get damage while in effect.

 

The problem is if you manage to touch a target with rain of fire you get the burn effect. And this effect will auto cancel this 2 skill. You sleep or frog a target while Burn is in effect the de-buff stat is automatically remove.

 

Idea:

 

1 Remove the Burn effect of Rain of fire,

 

OR

 

2: Make those 2 effects Take the damage over time skill and not remove the sleep or frog effect.


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#2 Coolsam

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 02:02 PM

Why make frog even better than it already is? Half the time some sources of damage don't even remove the effect or don't register as the hit that's supposed to remove it in the first place? Or sometimes things that aren't supposed to work on Frogs like magnet work. Whether this is from latency or otherwise. The debuff itself has some problems all it's own.

The DoT removing Frog is a balance to make sure people don't abuse it's absurd level 5+ duration as a means of permanently disabling players. It plus Quagmire will turn a 400 movement speed victim to under 250 with Jump disabled leaving them vulnerable to more Barbarians.

Why are you using Rain of Fire when 95% of your effective dps is X-Spam anyways? Witch's Curse only PvE use is to delay F7 mobs not currently being attacked by towers or players and maybe useful to delay Elga Chests.
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#3 Precrush

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 02:20 PM

Why are you using Rain of Fire when 95% of your effective dps is X-Spam anyways? 

Using skills in 1v1s is more fun then just barb -> x-spam->stun->x-spam->repeat. The burn makes you have to choose if you want to use rain of fire or the frog, which would be a cool mechanic if they were any where near the same power level. When there's a grand total of 8 offensive skills in your kit it would be nice to be able to use all of them.

 

The first option (taking the burn out) is not really a meaningful buff to Witch's Curse because as you say, x-spam is better so if you are using rain of fire you are hindering yourself already.

 

In group pvp you can actively seek to get hit while in the frog which would make either of these changes matter very little. And dot effects aren't that common because they suck which is a separate issue. And again if the invo rain of fires you instead of just x-spamming you should be happy.


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#4 zirothos

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 02:34 PM

Or sometimes things that aren't supposed to work on Frogs like magnet work.

 

where does it's say Magnet cant grab a frog?

 

and am talking about only about frog  but sleep at the same time. not only frog.

 

the Frog de-buff is remove after taking a hit.

 

and Damage over time in this game is really useless or not made for this style of game since we can kill someone in few sec.

 

I'm not talking about boosting how frog works, but only make the DOT damage not affect the frog if is cast on player who have the DOT effect on already.


Edited by zirothos, 13 March 2018 - 02:36 PM.

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#5 Vossel

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 03:22 PM

why not buff DOT instead of making Invoker CC even stronger than it already is?


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#6 Precrush

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 03:42 PM

why not buff DOT instead of making Invoker CC even stronger than it already is?

Sure buff dot but how exactly will it be stronger if there's no actual benefit except being able to use rain of fire? And that's basically a nerf because nobody should use rain of fire ever.

 

Just because a "buff" is directed at a strong skill doesn't mean it makes it significantly better.


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#7 Coolsam

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 04:55 PM

Sure buff dot but how exactly will it be stronger if there's no actual benefit except being able to use rain of fire? And that's basically a nerf because nobody should use rain of fire ever.

Just because a "buff" is directed at a strong skill doesn't mean it makes it significantly better.

He means that DoTs are underpowered unless they explicitly have a beneficial secondary effect. Like a Burn with Mana drain, or a Bleed with Max Hp debuff. Or have some form of stat reduction.

Their values go from okay-moderate at levels 1-20 to non-existent as early as well level 20+ in PvE and in PvP unless they're applied on a target with <5% hp left and in PvP/Bsq it's midigated with potions alone.

Witch's Curse and Sleep are not made for a damage dealing in mind. It's made as a stall skill. To turn your enemies into non-factors, essentially disabling them until they take damage and should need focus then. If you turn a target into a frog, it means you don't wanna fight them or let them act until it's necessary or in F7 until towers can properly focus them. DoTs acting on that without disabling means you wanna DoT a disabled target to finish or chip them down while they're disabled.

Edited by Coolsam, 13 March 2018 - 04:56 PM.

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#8 Precrush

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 10:28 PM

He means that DoTs are underpowered unless they explicitly have a beneficial secondary effect. Like a Burn with Mana drain, or a Bleed with Max Hp debuff. Or have some form of stat reduction.

Their values go from okay-moderate at levels 1-20 to non-existent as early as well level 20+ in PvE and in PvP unless they're applied on a target with <5% hp left and in PvP/Bsq it's midigated with potions alone.

Witch's Curse and Sleep are not made for a damage dealing in mind. It's made as a stall skill. To turn your enemies into non-factors, essentially disabling them until they take damage and should need focus then. If you turn a target into a frog, it means you don't wanna fight them or let them act until it's necessary or in F7 until towers can properly focus them. DoTs acting on that without disabling means you wanna DoT a disabled target to finish or chip them down while they're disabled.

That's right but you are tunnel visioning. As long as Dots suck "chipping down" would not happen.

 

Here's the different scenarios:

 

1v1, no burn on rain of fire:

Rain of Fire is now usable with Witches' Curse. That means people might use Rain of Fire.

Effectively a nerf to invoker

 

2v2 or 3v3, no burn on rain of fire:

Rain of Fire is now usable with Witches' Curse. That means people might use Rain of Fire.

Effectively a nerf to invoker

 

Group pvp, no burn on rain of fire:

Rain of Fire is now usable with Witches' Curse. That means people might use Rain of Fire.

Effectively a nerf to invoker

 

1v1, dots don't cancel sleep or frog:

Means the same thing, people might use Rain of Fire. In Ninja's case there's the poison dot and being able to use that would be an actual buff, but an insignificant one.

Effectively a nerf to invoker, A slight slight buff to Ninjas.

 

2v2 or 3v3, dots don't cancel sleep or frog:

Only one that could be problematic  since now all skills that cause damage dots work together with Witch's Curse and Hypnotizer and players can't reliably make themselves get hit in a safe way in frog form as the opponents will avoid hitting them without catching. But there's not many powerful skills with dot effects, so the synergy buff would only be very slight.

Slight buff to how Invokers and Ninjas synergize with other classes.

 

Group pvp, dots don't cancel sleep or frog:

The above is still true, but the more people there are the easier it is for people hit by Witch's Curse to find a piece of damage that they can relatively safely get hit by. It still sucks to have to do that, but you can't make people useless for the whole duration of the debuff. So the synergy advantage gained gets even smaller the more people there are. In the case of Hypnotizer it's worse since you can't actively get rid of the debuff yourself, but that somehow doesn't seem to be the problem you have.

Even slighter buff to how Invokers and Ninjas synergize with other classes.

 

In the case that dots get buffed someday these changes can be reverted/adjusted. But until then these changes would do nothing to the game's balance. I dare to suspect removing the burn from rain of fire is massively easier then reworking all dot effects even with how old and unpredictable this game's code is.

 

I use the words nerf and buff above quite generously, those are so small effects that they aren't really either. They are just neutral changes. The fact that even after all these nerfs the thought of Invokers getting a neutral change that'd only make them more fun and interactive to play in normal pvp gets backlash is quite frankly baffling to me. 


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#9 XiongmaoLin

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Posted 14 March 2018 - 07:49 AM

I dare to suspect removing the burn from rain of fire is massively easier then reworking all dot effects even with how old and unpredictable this game's code is.

I might add: given how the whole thing is advertised on these forums by the one person I know is busy with coding, it is very much predictable that every single skill has one own description of their damage over time effect. Just because!

 

Edit: and as an addition to the discussion, I am all for upgrading at least two of the four pseudo-elemental effects skills can boast, namely burn and poison. Some percent-of-current-mana burn and percent-of-current-health damage, respectively, would probably make these effects more relevant, although Warlocks do not seem to need a buff in their damage or utility right now (and they can inflict all four above-mentioned effects, and so can Shamans if I remember correctly).


Edited by XiongmaoLin, 14 March 2018 - 08:10 AM.

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