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#26 henrycao

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Posted 20 August 2018 - 09:27 AM

Genesis, can you remove "cold snap" from the mages skill tree? its a 200% movement speed down debuff that lasts for 8 seconds with 100% success rate. 2 Mages means 16seconds of hell for classes that rely on close range to deal damage.

Like, I have tried to play an off-meta class during the tournament, using an axe which has a bug where every time it reaches max critical stacks, it always breaks. When the absorb skill is the final attack before an enemy dies, it doesn't heal.

I've only found 1 working build so far after trying a bunch of different combinations. However I guess the only way for you to see the problem, is if I played the class that needs a rework in the tournament. It can't do anything vs ranged classes especially because mages have "coldsnap" which basically functions like an 8 second stun towards classes with no ranged. Can you make some changes? Otherwise only classes with range will be viable for tournaments like that.

 


Edited by henrycao, 20 August 2018 - 09:49 AM.

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#27 Feuer

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Posted 20 August 2018 - 06:19 PM

Coldsnap doesn't need to be removed, much like the issue with literally every hard CC aside from Sleep, it needs a diminishing return / stacking resistance. Considering Coldsnap is the only true 'rooting' effect in ROSE [outside of mechanical traps from scouts], the spell itself should apply a  resistance to the target to being rooted again for the duration of the cooldown. Meaning if there's two mages, and one coldsnaps you, the other can't apply another coldsnap rooting effect until the first mages ability comes off cooldown. That would completely prevent people abusing hard CC, and should be done in different amounts with the REST of CC.

 

Currently ROSE lacks a proper CC resistance for

Stuns, Mutes, Taunts, Roots and Dazes.

 

The only effect you build a resistance to mechanically [ie not from runes which is another problem entirely] is Sleep.

 

Tbh, this would be the first thing I'd recommend addressing in any Balancing updates in the future, assuming we ever get to that point.


Edited by Feuer, 20 August 2018 - 06:59 PM.

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#28 henrycao

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Posted 20 August 2018 - 11:49 PM

No, the skill needs to be removed entirely. It's unreasonable to give an 8 second root to a ranged class that already has up to 44m skill range.


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#29 Feuer

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Posted 21 August 2018 - 01:41 AM

Then lower the Range of the Mages. I prefer having utility you can use to play better, over things that are taken for granted. 

 

Aside from the fact that removing the effect just because 1 class struggles with it, Frost as a tree, is wholly under utilized, and under appreciated. It has great potential to be a well balanced spec if it wasn't for people [for lack of a better phrase] abusing the CC stacking. There's no reason any class should have 5 or more hard CC's that are all entirely unmitigated. If the game had built in CC abuse protection in the form of diminishing returns, people would move away from trying to abuse stun/silence stacking builds, and move onto more sensible and tbh fair builds. 

 

The problem isn't Coldsnap, and it never was. It's the poor handling of CC. 


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#30 Phish

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Posted 21 August 2018 - 04:43 PM

Currently sleep is the only one that has it but I'm impartial to the idea of adding diminishing return effects to all forms of crowd control. The diminishing return on sleep is somewhat understandable because people could potentially get infinitely locked in place by clerics alternating sleep cloud in large fights. I feel like it over complicates things and should it be implemented it adds more of a luck factor into pvp, because it starts taking skills with 100% success down to 80%> 60% etc. and then it just becomes more about doing raw damage because everything diminishes. Adding a separate diminishing return to 'root' effects is pointless as there are only 2 in the whole game and 1 of them is largely irrelevant (scout trap); if you get coldsnapped by a mage chances are you're dead unless there is a cleric healing you, or your team kills the mage first. The skill itself is quite oppressive in pvp but not entirely because of the skill alone but because the amount of strengths mages have in nearly every aspect, this skill is just one of them.


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#31 kojek

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Posted 21 August 2018 - 08:33 PM

The purpose of Henry, the 8 second effect of coldsnap is too long ... it's better to reduce it to 3-5 seconds for PVP ... even PVM stun from raider is only 7 seconds, and normal stun is only 3 seconds ... not only that, absorb from The mage is also very troublesome, where the cooldown is very fast, so it takes more than 1 person to kill 1 mage, where the mage already has ill damage and gets defense through absorbs that are like no limits which only require fast timing to use absorb skills keep on repeating ...
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#32 Kilauae

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Posted 21 August 2018 - 10:11 PM

There's nothing wrong with coldsnap, I don't even use that skill. Its only beneficial in small group fights or PVPs.

Based on specific situations can't be used to claim it needs to be nerfed or removed.

The cost of points to get that skill yet alone maxed isn't even really worth it.


Edited by Kilauae, 21 August 2018 - 10:19 PM.

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#33 henrycao

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Posted 22 August 2018 - 04:19 AM

@Kilauae I think that's an understatement, the water tree can be very handy when you consider elements into account.

Countering an element is equivalent to 10% pvp offense/resistance (according to my sources)

 

Especially because sorcery defense is arguably the best element in the game. Countering sorcery defense element with water elements can make a big difference. Not to mention, salamander flames are permanently sorcery defense.

 

You also have holy defense being the best element vs mage because mages skill tree doesn't have earth or poison offense skills. In this case, the water skill tree can do more damage than your wind skill tree and as for the fire one will depend on how much damage the dots do.

 

The other options like wind defense doesn't work as effectively as holy defense. Poison defense gets countered with mages spamming stuns (wind elements) and people rarely use ghost defense because then raiders fire skill power and dots skyrocket.

 

The water skill tree is far too underrated. Mages having coldsnap 8 second root (fixed 200% movementspeed down) is unreasonable and mages being the only class with this kind of "special CC" that no other class can share in common, is a big red flag to an unbalanced game that has been overlooked for far too long. Coldsnap needs to be removed.


Edited by henrycao, 22 August 2018 - 04:33 AM.

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#34 Kilauae

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Posted 22 August 2018 - 09:29 AM

Your playing a champion, that relies on cleric support more than others. Mages have had that skill for years. It was never an issue.

You can't throw in a dozen other factors into justifying why it should be removed tho lol. In order to obtain a 8 second Coldsnap you have to sacrifice so many skill points. It's not even worth it. That's like me saying that majority of skills on champions are neutral meaning you have a clear advantage over every other class in terms of damage; you have berserk(immune to stuns,sleeps, and a dmg amplifier). Now I can say oh hey Berserk should be removed its unfair. You can literally use 2-4 skills and drop a mage. What is there to actually complain about. Main issue is your basing this off certain situations which only happen in DP Matches which are only 5v5's and those are completely broken in terms of certain classes;runes. All you have to do is group a spear,fs,bourg,mage; or something similiar to that and you win. The only counter to that is the same broken setup.

Now if AA/CD were active which is the real competitive and most enjoyable game modes on Rose. Anything mentioned above is pretty much obsolete. 

A few ran the other night literally making that composition a complete joke; mages were getting wrecked. I mean the opposing team I happened to fight just sat in one spot, with a cleric camping flames; a bourg getting non-stop revived ontop of 2 spear champs instant dying trying to use the cheesy sacrifice method used in DP(5v5). Takes a ton more skill to dominate in AA/CD, Takes none at all to win DP matches other than stack cheesy compositions together. 

@Henry sadly I don't think AA/CD will ever be playable, so you'll never get to enjoy your axe/sword to its full potential. 


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#35 Snuwfer

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Posted 22 August 2018 - 05:40 PM

There's nothing wrong with coldsnap, I don't even use that skill. Its only beneficial in small group fights or PVPs.

Based on specific situations can't be used to claim it needs to be nerfed or removed.

The cost of points to get that skill yet alone maxed isn't even really worth it.

those words being said after someone used to actually use botted mages for debuffing and cold snapping in big group wars, along with trash geared bot scouts to spam traps, or spear champions on bot\macro to spam debuffs.. or multiple full support clerics spamming party heals and sally flames with max sum gauge.

 

 

 

you don't deserve to tell anybody about how "balance" goes in ROSE unless you're giving insight on how to abuse ROSE's broken CC meta via exploit(s), etc.

still enjoyed downing you with a scout while you played the most OP classes in game for 1vs1 pvp's.

 

 

oh yea.. judy blessings, almost forgot... comedy


Edited by Snuwfer, 22 August 2018 - 05:41 PM.

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#36 henrycao

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Posted 22 August 2018 - 06:19 PM

Actually, dropping an equally built mage with 2~4 skills is not realistic or possible especially because of the damage cap that was implicated long time ago. Even your mana shield has a damage cap which can be easily abused. Just by lowering the max HP pool and increasing MP, you can force a lower damage cap to protect your mana shield from breaking as fast; by avoiding excess burst damage from an axe. This forces the axe to use more skills, taking up more time while you stall 6 seconds for a potentially infinite shield.

 

Realistically, it takes my axe champion at least 7~9 skills to drop a mage added that I stun lock them at melee range(self ap/def/hp/str/enraged berserk buff) while also countering their chest element, but it takes a mage 9 ~ 11 seconds to drop my champion(self 15% enhance damage buff) added that I used red potion.

 

Having axes skills mostly neutral is a double-edged sword since I can't change offense weapon elements in battle, unlike ammo, arrow or bullets.

 

By the way, it takes a minimum of 3 hits to 100~0 someone. The only time 2 shots happen is when there is a hidden melee animation in the background during the skill animations.

 

Coldsnaps 8 second status effect needs to be removed. It's broken, especially in team fights when all range classes can utilize it to cripple lower ranged classes.


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#37 Kilauae

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Posted 22 August 2018 - 06:25 PM

@snuwcry dude your still salty about ur clan getting annihilated in wars after botting everything u can imagine lmao.

 

@henry really? it takes u 7-9 skills to drop a mage including a stun lock? dude atleast dont say stupid things like that lol.  A stun lock for any mage is an instant kill. You've killed me before in like 3 hits with a stun lock. I've seen you pvp other mages and its over in seconds. All you do is hit berserk and hop up like 3-4 good times and theyre down, along with majority of raiders or any class. Why are you complaining about a coldsnap that has been on Rose forever. Like i get it you fight 1-2 mages in DP and they use that skill doesnt mean it needs to be nerfed. 

Dude your making everything so complex and complicated for yourself when its not, What can I do to lower my hp? enlighten me. Not use str? Never did. Take off my chiv set? never used one. your thinking into this way too much, like are you actually being serious right now i can't tell anymore. Raise your mp? Why would u have low mp to begin with on a mage. Counter elements? okay seriously the only time an element really plays a big role in anything is from getting hit by raiders dots other than that you barely notice any difference. Thats why everybody uses sorcery to begin with cause raiders have fire/poison and the water/ghost elements are only on specific skills and arent a big deal, thats why its considered the best. Otherwise please enlighten me why everybody uses mainly sorcery defensive scrolls when 99% of every player is on ghost or water offensive which is strong vs sorc. lol.

Okay it takes u minimum 3 hits to drop someone 100 ~ 0 my point. your complaining about getting coldsnapped because u can't reach a mage u can 3 hit in a matter of seconds. Surely can't 3 shot anybody on a mage , 5 skills? Thats up for debate. Vs a champ? 5 ? No way.  


Edited by Kilauae, 22 August 2018 - 06:39 PM.

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#38 watermelonnn

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Posted 22 August 2018 - 06:47 PM

salty over the tourney i guess, the mages made him useless...but i mean, you had 2 clerics, neither of em wanted to move from their flame fast to simple purify, cure or anything to you lol

 

 


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#39 Kilauae

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Posted 22 August 2018 - 06:53 PM

@adam yeah your right, was skim reading through.

 

Everythings broken honestly depending on how you look at it. 

Look at your tournament compositon for example within a 5v5 match (DP) its broken.

That's been a fact and done along time ago when there was more players around.

Bourg;Cleric;Spear Champ;Mages/Raiders

Those classes alone on one side is an automatic win. A team of 10 year old's could win 5v5s with that composition. 

No offense either. But those just don't proportion out well for a 5v5's lol.

The only real solid counter to that is the same setup.

Throw all that into an AA/CD match, all of that proportions out more evenly. 

A few ran the other night actually and alot of those classes were in those matches, I don't need to say anything futher more. There was mages there, those are one of the easiest kills in the game actually if you know what you're doing. 

Long story short is just depends on how you look at it, to what extent.

Someone with even a low amount of experience playing DP's or AA's would know the above is true.


Edited by Kilauae, 23 August 2018 - 01:57 AM.

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#40 Phish

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Posted 22 August 2018 - 08:54 PM

^^ He was referring to Henry but.... ok.. lol

 

 

I'm going to post a video on the manashield damage cap tomorrow if this thread doesn't get locked by them. 


Edited by Phish, 22 August 2018 - 08:56 PM.

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#41 739150824061140697

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Posted 23 August 2018 - 02:55 AM

I really wish Vanguard can read those bunch of excuses of yours Charles.

Your clan members just isn't as invested on that so called clan of yours as you are.

Everyone has work and life outside Rose and you can't really pull the "no original members are here" excuse.

Either accept the fact that you have issues on your so called clan, or just stop making a fool of yourself jumping from one conversation to a complete different topic you boosted monkey.


Edited by 739150824061140697, 23 August 2018 - 03:01 AM.

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#42 Feuer

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Posted 23 August 2018 - 03:15 AM

Really wish people would learn to detach their personally invested interests from what's actually fair, thus making the game fun for everyone, not just the small group of people who enjoy precisely the same things.

 

Coldsnap is not a problem, except in the rare cases where you're being chain snapped by get this, MULTIPLE characters. In general, Xv1, the 1 should expect to lose on equal footing, always. 

CC in ROSE is a small issue, but it's one of the dozens of small issues, that lead to a drastically un-fun gameplay experience. 

 

I'm really sick of these points being overlooked because people want to be pedantic and snarky over emotional attachments or detachments. 

 

The game is bad, not because of any one single large problem. The gameplay is bad, because of many many small issues adding up to a single big problem. And constantly dismissing this crap because 'it's not a big deal nerd stfu and git gud scrub' is precisely WHY it's not gotten better. Stop attacking each other on what little remains of the last method of communicating with the DEV's. Everyone thinks if they just massively nerf or change 1 thing, it'll fix the whole problem and it won't. 

 

The tourney is over get over it. Let's get to brass tax by making it clear to the DEV's that balance is an issue, second only to the Duping/Crashing issues and get it fixed. I would like to play ROSE at least once more in my life time and have fun doing it. 


Edited by Feuer, 23 August 2018 - 03:17 AM.

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#43 kojek

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Posted 23 August 2018 - 03:55 AM

Why fight each other.. they still won't to fix the problem even read and do our suggestion.. maybe they just laughing after reading we fight each other about the problem about this game.. don't waste our time to complaining and fight each other.. they just don't care about the problem and won't to fix it.. so if you want to play this game, just enjoy the game with the problem..bcs when we still fight each other, soon they will lock this topic.. we already know about the problem already long time ago and they still didn't fix it..
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#44 henrycao

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Posted 23 August 2018 - 05:50 AM

Victorlouie (the guy who invested into building 3 mages) is an example of a mage that does 5.1k damage minimum, per skill without critical on an endgame champ and kills it in 9 to 10seconds (self buffs only). There is no even footing in this in any sort of way when coldsnap already takes up 8seconds, meanwhile the champ is still stuck at a distance and can never run up close.

Hypothetically speaking, if an axe is up close, it takes at least 7 skills to break the shield on a mage; meanwhile hoping for criticals and not missing a single attack.

 

Feuer, you don't play end game characters so I doubt you have play tested what end game content is actually like in terms of PvP balancing nowadays. I am actually giving realistic numbers here, Kilauae is just trying to protect his own class from getting a tweak by overrating champs burst, and underrating mages defenses. The mana shield itself is known to take at least 2 to 3 people to kill a mage. No one can 3shot a mage, we all should know that's not possible especially because of the added mana shield on top of the 3hit minimum to kill implemented into the game.

 

Coldsnap status effect needs to be removed.

 


Edited by henrycao, 23 August 2018 - 05:57 AM.

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#45 Feuer

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Posted 23 August 2018 - 06:29 AM

Correction: I don't play any* characters. But allow me to point something out.

 

There haven't been any balance updates or class changes in nearly four years. Four years ago, I very much had end-game characters. The only difference between then and now, is Runes, which simply amplify previous imbalances, and reinforcement, which also, only amplifies previous imbalance issues.

 

So ye, if you wouldn't mind trying to talk crap and don't try to talk down on me just because I gave up on waiting for old problems to be addressed that'd be great*. It's the same problems we had 4 years ago, people are just making different arguments about those same problems. 


Edited by Feuer, 23 August 2018 - 06:32 AM.

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#46 henrycao

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Posted 23 August 2018 - 07:29 AM

They also added new accessories, gears, increased the level cap and added grade 10 gems. When they did that balance update years ago, it was meant for level 230. However they changed things, these balance issues just come up more apparent now because we have more and more players reaching end game. I can give you an example of how runes changed the game, and it doesn't have anything to do with amplification. At level 230 before runes came out, all arm gems were offensive. However, with the introduction of runes, a defensive arm rune became available. So what happened to all champion builds that use to rely on chivalrous with melee attack damage, switched to luminous skill power. This is just one example of how runes changed the game. It just changed the way classes were suppose to be built and created disproportionate values that didn't occur previously.

 

I am starting to believe they didn't open Pegasus because they never intended to balance the game when the new runes, gears etc were added to the game. It was all a scheme to get people invested into the game, building there characters unknowingly whether it can be strong or not. Some runes are actually not good for any class, but they will add that option just to waste your time building it. If the GM had opened Pegasus, people would've just tested all the runes and only built the ones they thought was good on the live server. This could be a reason why they kept Pegasus closed. However at the same time this calls for an unbalanced game. This makes playing kind of pointless because PvP endgame content is not tested and not balanced.


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#47 Feuer

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Posted 23 August 2018 - 07:47 AM

Tbh, after Oct 10th, if the people 'in charge' haven't slated any kind of update, I'll be completely done. There's far better options coming up this fall season and I'm done being nostalgic. I already stopped logging in, but I'm about done waiting for them to even bother speaking. 


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#48 Kilauae

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Posted 23 August 2018 - 10:43 AM

I really wish Vanguard can read those bunch of excuses of yours Charles.

Your clan members just isn't as invested on that so called clan of yours as you are.

Everyone has work and life outside Rose and you can't really pull the "no original members are here" excuse.

Either accept the fact that you have issues on your so called clan, or just stop making a fool of yourself jumping from one conversation to a complete different topic you boosted monkey.

 

Where did you read excuses, clearly you don't know how to use vocabulary properly nor understand how to comprehend whats being said. My clan members are the one's who initially asked me to play in it while i wasn't even actively playing anymore. Nor play or have my accounts anymore. The tournament was setup on a timezone that was inconvenient for most people, considering work and life. Yes I am glad you can point out the obvious. That's not an excuse for anything, It is what it is dude. I am also glad you brought up the tournament when none of this being discussed had anything to do with it. Clearly you have your own personal vendetta agenda.

What are you even talking about, like what is ur purpose. You sound uneducated who thinks he knows what hes even talking about. Accept the fact that I have issues with my clan? What issues are we we talking about. My clan is awesome and everybody in it is.  

I am making myself a fool, for pointing out the obvious things wrong with the current state Rose is in right now? 

and not solely speaking upon Coldsnap? But I am at a much larger perspective but that's above your pay grade homie. Stick to being salty. 


Edited by Kilauae, 23 August 2018 - 12:44 PM.

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#49 Dragonlark

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Posted 23 August 2018 - 01:40 PM

Due to numerous posts breaking the terms of use and this thread going off topic, I have locked this thread from further posts. Please know discussions regarding other games, quitting, and bashing other players are against our forum terms of use.


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