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PvP: Sorcerer skill: Blizzard need a fair buff


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#1 NullNullNull

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Posted 29 October 2018 - 02:15 AM

Hi everyone, just a little suggestion about Sorcerer class (ah yeah! please pardon my "Engrish" I tried my best :D), anyway played this class for quite long and really enjoy it. Also big fan of pvp, but the thing is...
Sorcerer main catching skill: Blizzard really need a fair buff.


_I did pvp many time and also tested with my friends before, I could missed something so feel free to point out. Also This is base on 1v1 PVP, group PVP is another story we don't focus about that here

_Now then! how Blizzard works? When you press the key, summon a small AOE that deal damage overtime to target that stand inside it with rather slow speed, each hit has 40% chance to freeze the target for 4 sec (5/5), I forgot how many hit this skill deal in total but it last about 5 sec. It can only hit target stay on the ground, IT CAN NOT hit target in air (actuallly it does, but you know? air here mean you being launch into the air not really when you jump into the air, like how most air combo in this game work), I'm sure I have no lag. when activate, skill not hit you immediately, it has about 0,4 sec delay before the first hit happen, mean that you can get out safe and sound if you fast enough, or just simply better > jump out. It has 7 sec cool down, zero cast time and its animation cancelable, mean that you can suddenly release it out of nowhere, and you can run away when you missed, almost no risk! Really high mobility.

_In terms of how Blizzard work. this skill is well balanced in my opinion, It high mobility, while all other sorcerer's skill require you to stand still for quite long, it give you Fair amount of time to react to it. and give the user less but fair the risk of being counter, for a catching skill it has 7 sec cool down is also acceptable. and the AOE is really ok, not too big but also not too small. and since it can't hit air you can counter it by jumping, but combine with Fire emblem  (why it called fire emblem anyway???) it can be really danger to approach sorcerer.

_Sound great right? So why? Why Blizzard skill not so effective as it sound in 1v1 pvp where your opponent fully focus on you? And that is THE 40% CHANCE FREEZE!!! this rate is slow, unreasonable slow

 the correct word here is not this skill not effective but rather it effect it not reliable, 40% mean that your opponent has 60% chance to escape? more than your chance to sucessfully catch them, this skill basically love your opponent than yourself a little, why? Why? why YOUR SKILL benefit for your opponent than yourselft?

_So! How do we fix? Make it into 70- 75 % success, is it too much? Is it? I think not

around 75% success rate is the standard success of many good catching skill like barbarian, rocket punch,... and do those catching skill broken? I think they don't, sure everyone here all agree it! So why give Blizzard that same rate is too much.

_Blizzard can hit mutiple time and each hit can freeze you so you got higher chance??? And since it hit you mutiple time and last for like 5 sec it's can trap you for like 9 sec in total, make it 75% would be too OP??? OK Here how I think about that.

IT NOT GIVE YOU HIGHER CHANCE, true Blizzard hit mutiple time more chance but its hit speed is slow 0,4 sec per hit if i not wrong, the skill not hit you all hit to give you "more chance" at all, unlike violent blow which is fast hit speed so low chance is reasonable (that skill is hitscan btw)! in this case? No way you gonna take all hit to give that higher chance a thing, you get hit by the first hit of Blizzard and lucky no freeze, what next? you get out of there of course? Why would you stand still for another hit? You being stuck in Fire emblem and then blizzard, that is you got catch and being combo, nothing wrong here, that's how pvp work! 75% is fair, no one will allow you to let Blizzard hit them 2 or 3 time for that higher chance. Btw some skill in this game even has 100% rate.........sure you know what are those right?

OK now the second point: THIS SKILL CAN TRAP YOU REALLY LONG, I agree, indeed. But will that make any different? Normally, what next when you caught someone with blizzard? hurry up and chill penguin and flame mammoth pepper and missile and fire emblem and a little X attack, that enough for opponent break free. If you can trap people longer with 75% all you can do is more X attack and maybe other skill like cloud and awakening which is trust me lower damage than just x attack..... what else we can do? We can't use any skill for a second time in combo because that is spam. Run away and buff, what buff? magician wisdom? awakening charge? Heal? Why you heal in 1v1 PVP???

_So as you see few extra x attack is the only thing you can do, i don't think will sundenly make Sorcerer become best DPS in this game at all, OK now if you some how still think few extra x is a big deal then how about this 75% ON THE FIRST HIT and then the rest 40% like normal???

_In PvE? you don't need to freeze them you just need to kill them :D and they are slow or don't even bother to get out at all, boss? you can't freeze boss anyway, no extra damage at all. nothing change in PVE

_Group PVP? 2 player is more than enough to do something unfair already or not even need 2 player at all.

_OK If you some how still disargee all my point, i would say 60% or 50%, not reasonable. but atleast it's fair for both side (right???????) but 40%??????? Just absurd! Just ridiculous



alright guy that's it, i'm tired too :D not so good at english yet have to write wall text like that is really crazy ..... :D  Sorry for that wall text but I really just want to bring all of my point and also my honset opinion about this. Hope you guy take time to read ( please don't ignore :( ) feel free to comment and tell me if i missed something, really appreciate! After all i really enjoy this game and my class Sorcerer :D but seing it somewhat underwhelming compare to other class is just feel really unfair :( and I believe this change is possible for the dev team right now right? These a lot more skill I really want to talk about, this class and even other class but ok enough, enough, enough  :D :D :D   then have a good day (or night) everyone!!!


Edited by NullNullNull, 29 October 2018 - 06:32 AM.

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#2 7729170822175338137

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Posted 29 October 2018 - 11:27 AM

Though, I agree that sorcerer have a harder time catching in 1v1 compared to other classes, but their sheer strength in EW and BSQ is absurd. Unless there's a way to differentiate how skills work in PvP Lobby and EW/BSQ, I disagree with these changes.

 

Blizzard doesn't have a cast time and hits instantly which means it's always guaranteed to hit at least once per cast. If you're experienced at sorcerers, you can easily get this to hit multiple times. A 40%+ chance to freeze your opponent every 7 seconds seems fair to me.

 

Rocket punch/barbarian are not fair comparisons:

  • Rocket punch: has 95% hit rate at lvl 10, but it has a long, uncancelable cast time which allows it to be easily dodged/countered. I think 1 out of 10 rockets actually hit in 1v1.
  • Barbarian: In my opinion, the most powerful/broken skill in 1v1. I think it's 84%(?) chance at Lv.10 to freeze your opponent every few seconds. It's also undodgable because it's calculated client-side, so your opponent just needs to tank it and pray.

 

Sorcerers may need some help in 1v1s (it's not really their strong point), but I don't think buffing Blizzard is the way.

 


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#3 NullNullNull

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Posted 29 October 2018 - 10:50 PM

 

 

Blizzard doesn't have a cast time and hits instantly which means it's always guaranteed to hit at least once per cast. If you're experienced at sorcerers, you can easily get this to hit multiple times. A 40%+ chance to freeze your opponent every 7 seconds seems fair to me.

 

Rocket punch/barbarian are not fair comparisons:

  • Rocket punch: has 95% hit rate at lvl 10, but it has a long, uncancelable cast time which allows it to be easily dodged/countered. I think 1 out of 10 rockets actually hit in 1v1.
  • Barbarian: In my opinion, the most powerful/broken skill in 1v1. I think it's 84%(?) chance at Lv.10 to freeze your opponent every few seconds. It's also undodgable because it's calculated client-side, so your opponent just needs to tank it and pray.

 

Sorcerers may need some help in 1v1s (it's not really their strong point), but I don't think buffing Blizzard is the way.



I'm not sure what do you mean about "Instantly", if you mean instantly hit when you press the the button, no it's not, this skill has no cast time delay but has delay, like i said! This skill take around 0,4 sec for the first hit to hit you! that enough for anyone to get out, if you're too slow then it your fault, and this skill can't hit air, I tested it, you can jump over it, you can even fooling around like this: keep jumping in the middle of blizzard, if you good with your timing to make sure when you land blizzard not hit you >>> You will not even get hit at all... no joke, sad like that, let alone that 40%... basically as long as you don't stay on the ground, you're safe. I caught many knight player because most of the time they're always reckless and too confident with their chain combo and stay on the ground for too long, the other good knight know this so they jump alot.

Barbarian actually same as Blizzard, except only one hit, no damage and 
"Instant", this is what "Instant" about, Blizzard not "Instant" (thanks goodness! Or sorcerer OP! No joke) And Barbarian can't hit air either, so jump a lot and you be extremely annoying (Don't snake dash please) I also played Priest so i know


About the lag thingy, nothing we can do, we have to get used to it... unless you improve your internet or dev team find a way to improve this game, nothing we can do and Barbarian is not the only skill has benefit from lag, Lag make alot of magical stuff happen you know :D For me i don't have lag much, all of my point above is experienced without lag.


You seem to missed my point, i'm not compare about how skill work, problem here is Blizzard is too RNG 
dependence in a wrong way, what is this game? this is a game with complex combat mechanic base on your skill, your strategy, your gear, game like this should not let RNG make a big part of this game (enchant, soul craft, not count of course :D )

LIke if I luck then barbarian is good but if i'm not this skill is bad? No! That shouldn't and never be how balance in this game work. But I say RNG of rocket punch and barbarian is actually really acceptable and fun? Why? because those skill don't heavily depend on RNG, what do you think the purpose of 75 - 90 % RNG? In my opinion! It's not for balance purpose, it make the game less straightforward, you can't just use skill and that's it, it give another layer of risk, know that your plan is not going to work 100%, it encourage player to have more strategy than just simply rush to your opponent and attack, Plan A failed, better have Plan B, that's it, it's also make the game a little longer, more stuff going on.

So why 75-90 is ok but 40% is not? because the fail rate is low, so it's only happen rarely, not so often, so the game still all about your skill, luck just a little filler and expected. but if the rate is 50, 60% >>> NOT OK ! Too luck base, you will fail too often, to the point this game become like rock paper scissor not a skill base combat game as it supposed to be, like you finally trick and hit your opponent only to face the 50/50 RNG to see if your effort worth or waste, nooooo... please noo... how's that suppose to be fun?

And Blizzard 40% is just pure sad  :(


Edited by NullNullNull, 29 October 2018 - 11:41 PM.

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#4 Coolsam

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Posted 04 November 2018 - 06:42 AM

If anything I think Blizzard is too strong.

It's cast time is near instant and somewhat cancel-able.

It's radius is misleading, catching targets outside the displayed AoE.

It's freeze debuff constantly refreshes and doesn't list as a debuff so you can't gauge the time you spent frozen. Also the freeze chance rolls multiple times compared to how many times the skill actually hits you.

Also Sorcerer is currently the outright strongest class in group PvP. Want proof? Peak in a packed Battlesquare and measure how many players are Sorcerers. In fact I often hear complaints that games are solely weighed on which side has more of them. People complained too many individuals swapped to Twins? Sorcerer technically has even more main-swaps for the sake of BSQ/EW and this started when Arcadia 1 finally knocked Summoners and Invokers off the high horse.
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#5 NullNullNull

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Posted 04 November 2018 - 11:07 AM

Oh! Hi CoolSam!

Indeed Sorcerer is really good (too good actually) in group pvp! no doubt!

Trust me, because this topic is about buff so I don't talk about nerf yet, but if we do then I would say Fire Emblem need a cooldown nerf, 4 second cool down is just too short, around 3 sorcerer and this game suddenly turn into "The floor is lava game" let alone blizzard, I know that feel.

But in 1-1 Blizzard is really not that hard too dodge, about the hitbox thing I actually encountered sometime, both play as and play again sorcerer, it could be lag or bug, who know but sure that not suppose to happen. I belive it's lag, lag answer everthing in this game :D

Anyway, your point is this skill with high success rate can lock you really long. In 1-1 pvp I still strongly believe it not make much different but in group pvp, I really can not disagree.

So how do you think about this: still give blizzard that high success rate but make  it freeze duration only 0,5 sec, this skill hit you each 0,4 sec and can last for about 5 sec,  when the skill end you will escape, so basically this will lock you for 5 sec which is a little better than rocket and barbarian. And if you lucky with that 25% you can escape sooner. this for sure will make blizzard less dangerous in group pvp, 1-1 PvP? how blizzard work (hit delay and hit box) i fine as it is, just is the 40% success rate will mostly make all you effort go waste.

It's amaze me about the fact that stumble bum with 100% rate with wide AOE and can hit both ground and air still make overlord so balance ( don't get me wrong, that's not sarcasm, Overlord really balanced in my opinion) so why other class can't have the same 100% too, after all this kind of game with complex skill base combat mechanic like this shouldn't has victory base on luck, this is not Hearthstone.


Edited by NullNullNull, 04 November 2018 - 11:08 AM.

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#6 Coolsam

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Posted 04 November 2018 - 01:02 PM

Certain skills have those strong points but there's countermeasures around them. With varying degrees of skill.

Barbarian is Client Sided, but can't catch jumping targets. This is why many jump and bunny-hop when moving around enemy Invokers. If you say you were caught while jumping, it means you can gauge the ping of the enemy Invoker.

Rocket Punch is a straight line with a rather slow projectile speed.

Stumblebum has a cast time to it. Also the stun duration is microscopic so if there was enough distance you can move before the Gust Slash.

Even the infamous Ghost Fighter there was something a good number of classes can do to either stop it and mess up the twin or counter it all together.

Sorcerers are bad in 1vs1. Some used to be able to get around this. Z-spam before the nerf, off-screen Time Freezes on reckless opponents, etc. If you want my opinion there are dedicated Sorcerers out there that like 1vs1 but finding them in game is way too hard nowadays.

The problem with trying to aid a 1vs1 side is that you may inadvertently strengthen the group side too much. Currently the vast majority of players do group based PvP. So buffing and redesigning Blizzard around 1vs1 can lead to essentially no point in running Invokers in BattleSquare because you're making Blizzard nearly as reliable, if not more reliable, than Barbarian.
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